Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[BlueBasilisk]

Didn't Kale use here regular SSJ form when fighting SSJ2 Goku? And then after getting nowhere with that, she went Beserk, controlled her strength and then Goku went SSJG in response?

She used both. After Goku went SS3, she powered up to Berserk, then went SS2, then they fought him again for a little while. Goku went SSG after Caulifla anticipated his Instant Transmission.

Did Kale actually achieve SSJ2? I always thought she basically achieved the equivalent of mastered SSJ given she just reverts back to her SSJ appearance after controlling her SSJ Beserker power.

Well, that's what her Dokkan card calls it. Her hair turns darker green than her SS form and she has lightning in all but one aura shot.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Didn't Kale use here regular SSJ form when fighting SSJ2 Goku? And then after getting nowhere with that, she went Beserk, controlled her strength and then Goku went SSJG in response?

She used both. After Goku went SS3, she powered up to Berserk, then went SS2, then they fought him again for a little while. Goku went SSG after Caulifla anticipated his Instant Transmission.

Did Kale actually achieve SSJ2? I always thought she basically achieved the equivalent of mastered SSJ given she just reverts back to her SSJ appearance after controlling her SSJ Beserker power.

Not quite.

She does have a regular SS form that's slightly buffer and has green hair, but she's still relatively normal-sized; she and SS2 Caulifla fought together against SS2 Goku. However, when she ACTUALLY controls her Berserk power, she retains her huge growth spurt and has wilder and spikier green hair; THAT FORM is apparently her SS2 form.

So, in essence, her SS form is akin to normal SS2 in power, and her SS2 power is strong enough to not be instantly defeated by SSG.

[Miracles]

While Kale put up a fight, Goku clearly held the advantage flying through one of her attacks while Kale barely managed to hold of a casual ki blast from Goku. Goku even said before almost knocking them off that it was pretty much over and they should try again when they get stronger. Goku wouldn't have said that if he thought he was even with Kale.

And Kale responded to Goku that the fight wasn't over. Kale NEVER was physically beaten by Goku. She went after Caulifla who was physically beaten by red. That's the only reason the fight stopped.
Goku went through Kale's blast, so, she received no damage still. Goku fired a powered up ki ball blast at both Kale and Caulifla, not a normal ki blast.

[PFM18]

Kale never was losing to a stronger overall Goku, she was not fatigued or even damaged in that fight.

I'm not sure what your point is in the first sentence.

Caulifla even stated his SSJ2 was stronger than before. It's just not for UI.

Yes, Goku got stronger throughout the fight but it wasn't as a result of These "limit break" shenanigans. Otherwise, how would you explain Vegeta getting stronger throughout the tournament when he never broke his limits? They just got progressively stronger the limit breaking stuff was limited to their respective new forms.

Also Goku was not holding back the first time against Kale cause he couldn't even break out of her grip, AT ALL.

There's quite a bit of evidence that he was holding back against Kale. When you have somebody in their grip sometimes being stronger isn't enough, for example look at the one fodder Pride Trooper that put Goku in his grip.

[Miracles]

I'm not sure what your point is in the first sentence.

Yes, Goku got stronger throughout the fight but it wasn't as a result of These "limit break" shenanigans. Otherwise, how would you explain Vegeta getting stronger throughout the tournament when he never broke his limits? They just got progressively stronger the limit breaking stuff was limited to their respective new forms.


There's quite a bit of evidence that he was holding back against Kale. When you have somebody in their grip sometimes being stronger isn't enough, for example look at the one fodder Pride Trooper that put Goku in his grip.

Except the fodder Trooper caught Goku "off guard." This wasn't the case with Kale just dominating Goku. Goku wasn't holding back.
The limit breaker improved Goku's SSJ2 as stated by Caulfila. Goku didn't grow during the fight till after that statement.
That is proof alone that limit breaker does all modes. Goku even broke his limits AGAIN in KKXBlue when Vegeta broke his and went "beyond blue."
The point is in the first sentence Kale received no damage from Goku, no attacks were deciding from a stronger red Goku. They were even.

[Bullza]

Even after Kale transformed in the anime they still referred to Hit as Universe 6's ace.

[dragon boss z]

And Kale responded to Goku that the fight wasn't over. Kale NEVER was physically beaten by Goku. She went after Caulifla who was physically beaten by red. That's the only reason the fight stopped.
Goku went through Kale's blast, so, she received no damage still. Goku fired a powered up ki ball blast at both Kale and Caulifla, not a normal ki blast.

I agree she never physically lost, but visually she was performing worse than Goku was.

[PFM18]

Even after Kale transformed in the anime they still referred to Hit as Universe 6's ace.

Yeah it appeared by the time of the ToP it was SSG Goku ~ Hit and yet everybody still knew Hit was the strongest in the Universe by far. I mean it is extremely clear that Goku was holding back against Kale the first time.

[Dragon Wukong]

Personally I just label the anime as inconsistent. No one can really be anywhere because Kale can be fighting Blue Goku one second (mind you Goku used God instead of Blue against Dyspo later because he had to "save stamina") yet "powers up" and starts losing to a tired God Goku. It's nonsensical.

That being said, the manga does tend to be easier to pin down and more consistent (seeing as it's written by a single guy and edited by Toriyama.) I would effectively place a Berserker Kale (at least in the manga) on a tier similar to that of Toppo, based on this chapter.

There's nothing nonsensical about it. The story clearly explains the discrepancy. Like I said, for several reasons, you can tell Goku was holding back in the first encounter as a SSB.

Where do they explain it? The fact they make a point to bring up that Blue uses stamina later on and that he shouldn't use it unless he has to does make him using it against Kale despite her being somehow weaker than God somewhat nonsensical.

[PFM18]

Personally I just label the anime as inconsistent. No one can really be anywhere because Kale can be fighting Blue Goku one second (mind you Goku used God instead of Blue against Dyspo later because he had to "save stamina") yet "powers up" and starts losing to a tired God Goku. It's nonsensical.

That being said, the manga does tend to be easier to pin down and more consistent (seeing as it's written by a single guy and edited by Toriyama.) I would effectively place a Berserker Kale (at least in the manga) on a tier similar to that of Toppo, based on this chapter.

There's nothing nonsensical about it. The story clearly explains the discrepancy. Like I said, for several reasons, you can tell Goku was holding back in the first encounter as a SSB.

Where do they explain it? The fact they make a point to bring up that Blue uses stamina later on and that he shouldn't use it unless he has to does make him using it against Kale despite her being somehow weaker than God somewhat nonsensical.

Well it is nonsensical for Goku to do that yes. But doing nonsensical things is in Goku's character this is not a representation of the story not making sense. There's several things implying that Goku was suppressed against Kale in the first bout but we can only really speculate why he would do that.

The evidence is:

1. After the battle he has no battle damage and doesn't seem worried at all.
2. Jiren one shots her but Goku isn't intimidated at all and challenges Jiren immediately afterwards.(Implying he could have done the same.)
3. When Goku went from SSJ2 -> SSB he said "I'll power up a little". Implying he wasn't that far beyond his max output in SSJ2.
4. Despite Kale supposedly being able to fodderize SSB Goku, and Hit being shown to be somewhat relative to SSG Goku during this tournament, it is still stated that Hit is the ace of the team.

[Dragon Wukong]

Well it is nonsensical for Goku to do that yes. But doing nonsensical things is in Goku's character this is not a representation of the story not making sense. There's several things implying that Goku was suppressed against Kale in the first bout but we can only really speculate why he would do that.

The evidence is:

1. After the battle he has no battle damage and doesn't seem worried at all.
2. Jiren one shots her but Goku isn't intimidated at all and challenges Jiren immediately afterwards.(Implying he could have done the same.)
3. When Goku went from SSJ2 -> SSB he said "I'll power up a little". Implying he wasn't that far beyond his max output in SSJ2.
4. Despite Kale supposedly being able to fodderize SSB Goku, and Hit being shown to be somewhat relative to SSG Goku during this tournament, it is still stated that Hit is the ace of the team.

I don't deny that that evidence is there. But I do argue that dialogue and actions later in the tournament make it appear inconsistent that Goku bothered to use Super Saiyan Blue, which he says is more taxing and drains stamina during the fight with Dyspo, over Super Saiyan God, which was strong enough to fight Super Saiyan 2 Kale. I'm not trying to argue that Super Saiyan Blue Goku is stronger than Kale in the anime, only that such inconsistencies make it hard and (in my opinion) somewhat pointless to try and pin down power levels, especially when the only indications that Goku may have been holding back during that fight are nonverbal.

[PFM18]

Well it is nonsensical for Goku to do that yes. But doing nonsensical things is in Goku's character this is not a representation of the story not making sense. There's several things implying that Goku was suppressed against Kale in the first bout but we can only really speculate why he would do that.

The evidence is:

1. After the battle he has no battle damage and doesn't seem worried at all.
2. Jiren one shots her but Goku isn't intimidated at all and challenges Jiren immediately afterwards.(Implying he could have done the same.)
3. When Goku went from SSJ2 -> SSB he said "I'll power up a little". Implying he wasn't that far beyond his max output in SSJ2.
4. Despite Kale supposedly being able to fodderize SSB Goku, and Hit being shown to be somewhat relative to SSG Goku during this tournament, it is still stated that Hit is the ace of the team.

I don't deny that that evidence is there. But I do argue that dialogue and actions later in the tournament make it appear inconsistent that Goku bothered to use Super Saiyan Blue, which he says is more taxing and drains stamina during the fight with Dyspo, over Super Saiyan God, which was strong enough to fight Super Saiyan 2 Kale. I'm not trying to argue that Super Saiyan Blue Goku is stronger than Kale in the anime, only that such inconsistencies make it hard and (in my opinion) somewhat pointless to try and pin down power levels, especially when the only indications that Goku may have been holding back during that fight are nonverbal.

The signs are nonverbal but I think this is just an example of "show don't tell" not an example of an inconsistency

[Bullza]

So with that Super Dragon Ball Heroes anime including the DBS versions of Goku and Vegeta then I suppose that will connect back to this show in a way.

Super Saiyan Vegito is actually going to be in it. Probably to fight against that new evil Saiyan Cumber.

[Bullza]

Reading through the chapter now

1. Frieza does in fact say that Kale's attacks stung more than Caulifla's did which seems to confirm that Base Kale is stronger than the Super Saiyans. In that regard you can see why Super Saiyan Kale would then be so powerful. Frieza does also say it's a new type of Super Saiyan so presumably the Legendary Super Saiyan even if it isn't as buff.

2. Goku says that she gets stronger and stronger too as she's attacking him.

3. Frieza says that he is actually capable of handling Kale himself if he took her seriously. That would have suggested that maybe she could actually still be weaker than Super Saiyan God like in the anime if Frieza was dicking about like how Goku did back in Episode 100 but...

4. After that Kale's power is said to spike again so she's getting stronger every second from the sound of it so who can say.

5. Frieza says Super Saiyan Caulifla is much stronger than the first Super Saiyan he ever fought which would be Goku on Namek. That is probably no surprise at all though.

[ZombieVito]

Reading through the chapter now

1. Frieza does in fact say that Kale's attacks stung more than Caulifla's did which seems to confirm that Base Kale is stronger than the Super Saiyans. In that regard you can see why Super Saiyan Kale would then be so powerful. Frieza does also say it's a new type of Super Saiyan so presumably the Legendary Super Saiyan even if it isn't as buff.

2. Goku says that she gets stronger and stronger too as she's attacking him.

3. Frieza says that he is actually capable of handling Kale himself if he took her seriously. That would have suggested that maybe she could actually still be weaker than Super Saiyan God like in the anime if Frieza was dicking about like how Goku did back in Episode 100 but...

4. After that Kale's power is said to spike again so she's getting stronger every second from the sound of it so who can say.

5. Frieza says Super Saiyan Caulifla is much stronger than the first Super Saiyan he ever fought which would be Goku on Namek. That is probably no surprise at all though.

So base Kale > SS Caulifla? Very interesting, if we apply this to the anime then base Kefla beating a tired SSG Goku makes a bit more sense.

[Marlowe89]

3. Frieza says that he is actually capable of handling Kale himself if he took her seriously. That would have suggested that maybe she could actually still be weaker than Super Saiyan God like in the anime if Frieza was dicking about like how Goku did back in Episode 100 but...

4. After that Kale's power is said to spike again so she's getting stronger every second from the sound of it so who can say.

The implication of the chapter is essentially as I've previously speculated -- the dialogue suggests that the more Kale loses control, the stronger her transformation becomes. I'm going to put her in my "fluctuant" category for now since her strength varies so much.

And yeah, looks like I was incorrect about base Kale. She's even stronger than Super Saiyan Caulifla and was hiding her power from her protege all along.

[ekrolo2]

Does Freeza being beneath SS tier help confirm the retcon theory? At least for the manga?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Does Freeza being beneath SS tier help confirm the retcon theory? At least for the manga?

The thing is, this "SS tier" isn't the same as before. It's a WAY higher ceiling than back on Namek or even during the Cell Games for that matter; the latest chapter proves this much at least.

It's definitely not god-level, that much is for certain.

Without a frame of reference for where Freeza stands next to characters like Piccolo or Buu, we won't know for certain.

[Bullza]

So base Kale > SS Caulifla? Very interesting, if we apply this to the anime then base Kefla beating a tired SSG Goku makes a bit more sense.

It would seem that way. Base Kale was pretty useless in the anime but maybe that was a confidence thing.

Does Freeza being beneath SS tier help confirm the retcon theory? At least for the manga?

No it wouldn't seem to be an issue. He put up a good fight against Super Saiyan Caulifla who he said was much stronger than Super Saiyan Goku on Namek so he's obviously trained just like the anime.

It would just appear to be consistent with the anime where it was implied he was stronger than Base Goku. It would make no sense for Frieza to have been Super Saiyan God level and still fight somewhat evenly with him.

Without a frame of reference for where Freeza stands next to characters like Piccolo or Buu, we won't know for certain.

Frieza should be above Piccolo. A few things imply as much.

[Marlowe89]

It's definitely not god-level, that much is for certain.

You're right, but a couple of certain users would argue otherwise, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Does Freeza being beneath SS tier help confirm the retcon theory? At least for the manga?

The chapter confirms that the Super Saiyans now are a lot stronger than Super Saiyan Goku on Namek, which is something I think that most people agree on anyway. Exactly how much stronger is still as debatable as ever.