That’s what the spoilers are saying.. At this point, I think this is something to be expected. 5 years ago Toriyama didn’t have plans for Goku or Vegeta to surpass Beerus, but it was said by the Oracle Fish they would rival him someday and the story is nearing its end, with them beating God of Destruction level opponents.Legion wrote:"Reach a level none of the Hakaishin could" it's mean mastering ultra instinct, not that Goku can put a good fight against Whis or that is almost Angel level, which he's not.jeffbr92 wrote:Seeing how Whis can one shot Beerus so easily and Goku managed to reach a level none of the Hakaishin could reach I would say he would put a good fight against Whis, but still lose anyway.Kenneth La Torre wrote:The gap between angel and hakaishin seems pretty big. Where do you think he will rank between hakaishin and angel? Higher near angels, or lower slightly superior to the hakaishins?
Also, is not confirmed at all that Goku is above Hakaishin tier, this is too much, unless you guys believe that Goku can one shot all of them .-.
Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
MATCHES (Just say if you agree or not. If not, say why and debate about it):
Kefla BSsj = UI Goku Episode 110 (I know Some has already argued This but I want to join into it and get the topic running again)
Ultra Instinct Goku EPISODE 110 is stronger than Beerus
Android 17 EPISODE 127 > Kefla BSsj2 Full Power
Kefla BSsj = UI Goku Episode 110 (I know Some has already argued This but I want to join into it and get the topic running again)
Ultra Instinct Goku EPISODE 110 is stronger than Beerus
Android 17 EPISODE 127 > Kefla BSsj2 Full Power
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
I pretty much disagree with all of your outcomes with the last one being explainable. By your scaling 17 and SSJ Kefla surpass Beerus and are both hakashin level or above which I find very wrong.DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:MATCHES (Just say if you agree or not. If not, say why and debate about it):
Kefla BSsj = UI Goku Episode 110 (I know Some has already argued This but I want to join into it and get the topic running again)
Ultra Instinct Goku EPISODE 110 is stronger than Beerus
Android 17 EPISODE 127 > Kefla BSsj2 Full Power
Kefla SSJ vs UI Goku Episode: Goku would win easily, Kefla as a SSJ was being overpowered initially by fatigue Goku in normal SSBKK alone with even Blue Vegeta being stronger considering he was able to push a supressed Jiren whom was stated to have the strongest ki Vegeta has felt. Vados also implied a full powered SSB may be too much for SSJ Kefla so it's evident that she rivals SSB tier, unless you mean SSJ2 Kefla which would be another story though I think Goku would still be overall superior.
Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110 vs Beerus: Goku at best rivalled as very supressed Jiren before he powers up more in around 3-4 stages later on. I'm pretty sure Jiren can only rival hakiashins at full power not when supressed heavily. Even 17 and SSBKK Goku could hold their own against a more powered Jiren. I don't see UI Goku from episode 110 being above Beerus by a long shot. Even by scaling Topo whom would be weakest hakishin has better feats than episode 109-110 Jiren which is changing the world of void environment rather than shake it with Beerus and Jiren be more noticeable for it's power.
Android 17 vs Kefla BSsj2 : I don't know how 17 power works or if he gets stronger throughout battle like saiyans do which may explain why he reached SSB tier, but I assume he really doesn't. 17 wasn't able to do much harm to Toppo whom would scale to SSBKK from early ToP. I'm pretty sure Kefla as a SSJ2 at least rival or surpass full power base Toppo, so I doubt 17 surpass SSJ2 Kefla in raw power while maybe giving her a run for her money with tactics with his barrier nullifying all her attacks. It could go either way honestly with overwhelming offensive vs tactics and defensive, it's a difficult decision.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Before anything, could you post the longest possible explanation you could ever do in your entire free time regarding why you disagree? I'd like to debate this on a huge-ass scaleSayianBeyondGod wrote:I pretty much disagree with all of your outcomes with the last one being explainable. By your scaling 17 and SSJ Kefla surpass Beerus and are both hakashin level or above which I find very wrong.DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:MATCHES (Just say if you agree or not. If not, say why and debate about it):
Kefla BSsj = UI Goku Episode 110 (I know Some has already argued This but I want to join into it and get the topic running again)
Ultra Instinct Goku EPISODE 110 is stronger than Beerus
Android 17 EPISODE 127 > Kefla BSsj2 Full Power
Kefla SSJ vs UI Goku Episode: Goku would win easily, Kefla as a SSJ was being overpowered initially by fatigue Goku in normal SSBKK alone with even Blue Vegeta being stronger considering he was able to push a supressed Jiren whom was stated to have the strongest ki Vegeta has felt. Vados also implied a full powered SSB may be too much for SSJ Kefla so it's evident that she rivals SSB tier, unless you mean SSJ2 Kefla which would be another story though I think Goku would still be overall superior.
Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110 vs Beerus: Goku at best rivalled as very supressed Jiren before he powers up more in around 3-4 stages later on. I'm pretty sure Jiren can only rival hakiashins at full power not when supressed heavily. Even 17 and SSBKK Goku could hold their own against a more powered Jiren. I don't see UI Goku from episode 110 being above Beerus by a long shot. Even by scaling Topo whom would be weakest hakishin has better feats than episode 109-110 Jiren which is changing the world of void environment rather than shake it with Beerus and Jiren be more noticeable for it's power.
Android 17 vs Kefla BSsj2 : I don't know how 17 power works or if he gets stronger throughout battle like saiyans do which may explain why he reached SSB tier, but I assume he really doesn't. 17 wasn't able to do much harm to Toppo whom would scale to SSBKK from early ToP. I'm pretty sure Kefla as a SSJ2 at least rival or surpass full power base Toppo, so I doubt 17 surpass SSJ2 Kefla in raw power while maybe giving her a run for her money with tactics with his barrier nullifying all her attacks. It could go either way honestly with overwhelming offensive vs tactics and defensive, it's a difficult decision.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
In the meantime, I'd like to engage in another debate:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
That's not even necessary, I think I already made enough simple reasoning and evidence for my arguments, I don't need to get into any deeper context it's better to keep things simple. I don't have the inclination to post something very in depth like I did when proving Kefla is on SSB to SSBKK tier from early ToP with my in depth post with scans and translation. If you really want to debate why not go to debating fourms(comicvine, spacebattles or Who Would Win), this forum feels like a respect thread/feat thread or scaling here rather than a Vs.DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote: Before anything, could you post the longest possible explanation you could ever do in your entire free time regarding why you disagree? I'd like to debate this on a huge-ass scale
You're also throwing in too many topics here into the discussion.
Last edited by SayianBeyondGod on Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
It is necessary since I could counter this right on the spot without any interest, but I'm not interested in Debating so little on the matter. You could repost what you did on Kefla, and just do something similar on the second two parts. I'm not forcing you to do it now, you have an entire year for all I care. If you don't want to, then Kek Idc, but it's just curiositySayianBeyondGod wrote:That's not even necessary, I think I already made enough simple reasoning and evidence for my arguments, I don't need to get into any deeper context. I don't have the inclination to post something very in depth like I did when proving Kefla is on SSB to SSBKK tier with my in depth post with scans and translation. If you really want to debate why not go to debating forms(comicvine, spacebattles or Who Would Win), this forum feels like a feat thread or scaling here rather than a Vs.DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote: Before anything, could you post the longest possible explanation you could ever do in your entire free time regarding why you disagree? I'd like to debate this on a huge-ass scale
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Quantity =/= Quality, the argument is going to have the same points regardless if I added scans and more expanded sentences. I don't see how what I posted can easily been countered just because they're not long with no change of multiple made points. But again I don't have the inclination to make a bigger arguments due to how unnecessary it is. If you want proof then I can provide some scans and videos if necessarily. The only times I need to argue a longer explanation and elaborative argument is when my points are challenged.DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:It is necessary since I could counter this right on the spot without any interest, but I'm not interested in Debating so little on the matter. You could repost what you did on Kefla, and just do something similar on the second two parts. I'm not forcing you to do it now, you have an entire year for all I care. If you don't want to, then Kek Idc, but it's just curiositySayianBeyondGod wrote:That's not even necessary, I think I already made enough simple reasoning and evidence for my arguments, I don't need to get into any deeper context. I don't have the inclination to post something very in depth like I did when proving Kefla is on SSB to SSBKK tier with my in depth post with scans and translation. If you really want to debate why not go to debating forms(comicvine, spacebattles or Who Would Win), this forum feels like a feat thread or scaling here rather than a Vs.DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote: Before anything, could you post the longest possible explanation you could ever do in your entire free time regarding why you disagree? I'd like to debate this on a huge-ass scale
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
I'm not interested in debating about any of this, but to claim that UI Goku (110) is stronger than Beerus yet equal to Super Saiyan Kefla while also claiming that 17 is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla at full power, you're essentially arguing that 17 is far stronger than Beerus, and I doubt anyone is going to concur with that.DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:*snip*
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Russian synopsis episode 130 & 131:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWz8AO3WsAAt_75.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWz77UtX0AAN7J_.jpg
By @STKX18
I don't know the truth...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWz8AO3WsAAt_75.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWz77UtX0AAN7J_.jpg
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
There's are obviously fake spoilers dude. We only received provisional titles for Super episodes 130 and 131.Bonus Stage wrote:Russian synopsis episode 130 & 131:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWz8AO3WsAAt_75.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWz77UtX0AAN7J_.jpg
By @STKX18
I don't know the truth...
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Well if you can't add more quantity with further quality in it then Kek I'm no longer interested at all. I'm not telling you to add the same thing you already elaborated on but it seems that's all you can get, so I'm not even gonna debate with you unless you get "inclined" to or somebody else comes at it. Sorry for being offensive, but when you said "I don't see how what I posted can easily been countered just because they're not long with no change of multiple made points", you sounded clueless. Making a bigger reply yet repeating the same points? I don't think I'd want that or waste my time waiting.SayianBeyondGod wrote:Quantity =/= Quality, the argument is going to have the same points regardless if I added scans and more expanded sentences. I don't see how what I posted can easily been countered just because they're not long with no change of multiple made points. But again I don't have the inclination to make a bigger arguments due to how unnecessary it is. If you want proof then I can provide some scans and videos if necessarily. The only times I need to argue a longer explanation and elaborative argument is when my points are challenged.
So what if 17 is above Beerus? People seem to wank Beerus or simply view him in a very God like figure that he's supposed to be some unbeatable character. Many people I know and met agree with me, but I know most People disagree with these, hence I'm willing to Debate "anybody". Kanzenshuu idea forum which contains a wide variety of opinions and most of them disagree with other communities and majorities, so it's easy to find controversy here. There's no point for me to be here if I expect people to agree with meMarlowe89 wrote:I'm not interested in debating about any of this, but to claim that UI Goku (110) is stronger than Beerus yet equal to Super Saiyan Kefla while also claiming that 17 is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla at full power, you're essentially arguing that 17 is far stronger than Beerus, and I doubt anyone is going to concur with that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
BSSJ Kefla = UI Goku first round
-> First Whis stated she rivaled the Spirit-Bomb. She pushed Goku past his limits a second time. But she didn't lay a hand on UI Goku. Then she seemed to power up even more against UI Goku (before she went SSJ2)
I would rather state she was stronger than the Spirit Bomb at the end. Somewhere between the Spirit Bomb and UI Goku first round. But no equal to UI Goku first round.
UI Goku < Beerus
-> Difficult to confirm, but i really doubt it. They both essentially haven't masterd UI. I think, when Goku masters UI, only then he'll be stronger than Beerus
BSSJ2 Kefla < 17
-> I don't think Jiren effectively used that much of his power against 17. They just showed us Jiren power up. But nothing implies he really used more of his power than against Blue Goku.
Current base Goku > ssjg Goku (BOG)
-> I don't believe current base Goku is that strong anymore. There is no proof Goku used God-tier-power in base since ROF.
-> First Whis stated she rivaled the Spirit-Bomb. She pushed Goku past his limits a second time. But she didn't lay a hand on UI Goku. Then she seemed to power up even more against UI Goku (before she went SSJ2)
I would rather state she was stronger than the Spirit Bomb at the end. Somewhere between the Spirit Bomb and UI Goku first round. But no equal to UI Goku first round.
UI Goku < Beerus
-> Difficult to confirm, but i really doubt it. They both essentially haven't masterd UI. I think, when Goku masters UI, only then he'll be stronger than Beerus
BSSJ2 Kefla < 17
-> I don't think Jiren effectively used that much of his power against 17. They just showed us Jiren power up. But nothing implies he really used more of his power than against Blue Goku.
Current base Goku > ssjg Goku (BOG)
-> I don't believe current base Goku is that strong anymore. There is no proof Goku used God-tier-power in base since ROF.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
You kind of ignored the fact that UI Goku on Episode 116 is stronger than UI Goku on Episode 110, and based her power over the statement from Whis despite the translation actually states that her power is as strong as Goku when he got bathed by the spirit bomb. She didn't power up more than Goku on Episode 116 other than at the endMister_Popo wrote:BSSJ Kefla = UI Goku first round
-> First Whis stated she rivaled the Spirit-Bomb. She pushed Goku past his limits a second time. But she didn't lay a hand on UI Goku. Then she seemed to power up even more against UI Goku (before she went SSJ2)
I would rather state she was stronger than the Spirit Bomb at the end. Somewhere between the Spirit Bomb and UI Goku first round. But no equal to UI Goku first round.
It's the oppositeMister_Popo wrote:UI Goku < Beerus
It's already evident enough from before that he surpassed Beerus.Mister_Popo wrote:-> Difficult to confirm, but i really doubt it. They both essentially haven't masterd UI. I think, when Goku masters UI, only then he'll be stronger than Beerus
Lol everyone directly states that Jiren was hiding the same power he used Against Goku, Vegeta and 17 on Episode 127 and that the power he used Against them was his true power which he hid throughout the entire tournamentMister_Popo wrote:BSSJ2 Kefla < 17
-> I don't think Jiren effectively used that much of his power against 17. They just showed us Jiren power up. But nothing implies he really used more of his power than against Blue Goku.
I'll post why you're wrong nowMister_Popo wrote:Current base Goku > ssjg Goku (BOG)
-> I don't believe current base Goku is that strong anymore. There is no proof Goku used God-tier-power in base since ROF.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
WHY BASE GOKU STOMPS SSJG GOKU BOG
Spoiler:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Continuing:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
I don't need to add any quality I already added objective evidence to my arguments, I don't need to make a bigger argument if none of my points are challenged. Again I don't need to change any points, they're still valid regardless of format or size of argument. You act like being more elbourative changes any points or evidence but it doesn't. If you want a bigger argument okay, but the points are still the same.DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
Well if you can't add more quantity with further quality in it then Kek I'm no longer interested at all. I'm not telling you to add the same thing you already elaborated on but it seems that's all you can get, so I'm not even gonna debate with you unless you get "inclined" to or somebody else comes at it. Sorry for being offensive, but when you said "I don't see how what I posted can easily been countered just because they're not long with no change of multiple made points", you sounded clueless. Making a bigger reply yet repeating the same points? I don't think I'd want that or waste my time waiting.
Kefla SSJ vs UI Goku Episode 110: UI Goku would easily stomp her here due to the fact she's only rivals SSB tier.
In halfway of episode 115, when Vados claims that kefla at SSJ should take blue Goku carefully, while champa responded that Goku was still fatigue implying to why Kefla stood a chance which was due to Goku currently being fatigued in the fight and proves that a full power SSB would be too much, with no argument against her statement from champa. Just after that Vados question whether Kefla can take on(not beat or win) fatigue blue goku(which champa already acknowledges in the conversation) in which Champa responded "yeah"
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Later on fatigued Goku in kaioken/king kai fist was able to cause her arm to go numb when in just in regular kaioken/king kai fist(which is around x2 or close) as he says it without the added multiplier. When he later powers up more she was failing to react to him move and continues to overpower her initially to the point where she struggles to get up while damaged with the crowd worried even Champa whom is aware of her power.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
It should be noted that Beerus claimed that in Goku fatigued state he shouldn't utilize SSBKK and that he has only one more shot before he runs out of staimia/ki which explains Kelfa being able to knock him out of the form with a single kick when she got behind him while he was distracted with his last Kamehameha.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Even SSB Vegeta in episode 122 was able to push Jiren was said to have the strongest ki yet weaker than when fight UI Goku from episode 110. So it's clear even SSB Vegeta is stronger even SSJ2 Kefla yet inferior to 110 UI Goku.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
When Kelfa was powering up in SSJ2, Picoolo clearly claim she surpassed his prior level with the Japanese translation suggesting it to be more recent, which implies it being Goku's SSBKK. In the same fight you notice that UI fatigue Goku needed to power up a little to be confident enough to take her on which in prior even incited her to use more power according to Gohan which Picoolo confirms.
Actual Japanese translation of Picoolo's statement, in episode 116:
このパワー…先ほどまでだったら孫を超えてるかもしれん!
このパワー means "This power"
先ほど means "a little time ago"
まで means "until"
だったら means something like "if that's the case"
孫を超えてるかもしれん means "Might surpass Son [Goku]"
The only real argument you have agasint this is the fact Whis said Kefla ki rivaled the spirit bomb but than again it this can easily be interperted in role/ability especially when in latter context whis mentions her ki acting as a stimulus ontop Goku rather than directly comparing power.
Whis: -「ええ。元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気が悟空さんを刺激して、またひとつ己の限界の殻を破ったのでしょう」
Ee. Genkidama wo abita toki no pawaa ni hittekisuru hodo no kefura-san no ki ga gokuu-san wo shigekishite mata hitotsu onore no genkai no kara wo yabutta no deshou.
Indeed. I presume Kefla-san's Ki, who rivaled the Genkidama, acted as a stimulus and allowed Goku-san to once again break through his limit.
Even that narrtor confirms that it was the extreme overall battle that served to trigger the form not a single attack/kick that rivalled the Genkidama. But in the end Whis is presuming something so he's not 100% or factual, just like when he though Caulifa was just a brawler but takes it back afterwards.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
DB-Magnum-Expert, you need to lay off the GIGANTIC images.
Just put them in spoilers or something, or only use text quotes.
Just put them in spoilers or something, or only use text quotes.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
DB-Magnum-Expert, use spoilers or links, you're taking up too much space of this page. Does your tactic revolves around overwhelming one with long arguments. Some of your scans can be replaced with videos rather than have a scan of each frame during a fighting scene. The point of scans is for statements.
Last edited by SayianBeyondGod on Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
This is what happens when people don't acknowledge that Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan God got retconned into being equal. Current SSG Goku is equal to a hypothetical current SBG (Base form from RoF) Goku, and Final Form Freeza is close to SSG Goku level.
Also, Dyspo had the upper hand in his skirmish against SSG Goku.
Also, Dyspo had the upper hand in his skirmish against SSG Goku.