Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Sat May 20, 2017 2:50 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:It's times like this where I appreciate that the anime doesn't go out of its way to explain things in-depth some of the time.

With SSB in the RoF Arc and Universe 6/7 Tournament, all we needed to know was that the form surpassed SSG and had great Ki control.
It also had stamina issues, stated in both anime and manga, why Goku started in base.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Cabba » Sat May 20, 2017 3:34 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: There's nothing to imply at all that fighting at 100% of the power of SSJB grants you more strength. It's just that Goku can fight at 100% of the power of SSJB longer than Vegeta supposedly can. It seriously muddies the waters considering that Vegeta, for all intents and purposes, has fought at 100% of the power of SSJB against SSJ Goku Black and lost. Does this mean that SSJ Goku Black after his zenkai is as strong, or very nearly as strong, as Merged Zamasu? Because that certainly would be strongly implied to be case. And if so, this would have to mean that SSJR Goku Black technically is stronger than Merged Zamasu. And that's impossible.
It should also be noted that Goku comment, in regards to Vegeta interchanging between SSJG and SSJB to fight SSJR Goku Black, that Vegeta's power doesn't drop at all. So in those brief instances when Vegeta changes in SSJB to fight SSJR Goku his power doesn't drop at all as a SSJB. He fighting at 100%. So obviously your strength as SSJB doesn't instantly burn at still stay clocked in at 100% for short period time, even it it's very briefly for when you power up into the form itself.
Ok now i managed to read the new chapter (quite good i might add)
The premise stays the same as previous chapter with some interesting extra comments/wording
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Yes i do think people are taking the "full power only lasts for a short while" line too literally, besides there is more than one interpretation for this particular line:
For starters short could mean any time frame from a split second to a couple of minutes, there is no definition of short which can provide how long of time it is, 1 second or 1 minute we are making assumptions here, which assumption fits better the context however? and second by full power Vegeta could mean the maximum output possible from SSB transformation without containing its energy inside the body

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
The way Vegeta talks about Goku sealing energy inside his body creates a condition which was never possible before as SSB the moment you transformed you start overflowing with blue energy, you are losing/releasing it from the moment you transform. Which is why i think by full power for a short period he meant the highest possible power which the incomplete SSB allowed . Going by the logic/explanation of Vegeta, Blue starts hemorrhaging energy from the get go, which also explains why only Vegeta turned Blue for a split second when fighting Black which is why Trunks didnt notice and Black noticed it only after a while, the switch likely happened on a fraction of a second

By containing this energy within his body Goku achieves two things:
1) Maintaining 100% efficiency/energy
2) Focusing/concentrating all that energy

Here its where it gets interesting:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Previously i assumed SSG/SSB switch allowed Vegeta to charge blue inside his body. With this however it seems that Vegeta was releasing SSB energy in short explosive bursts when needed and while on SSG it allowed time for his body to regenerate the energy. Vegeta releases the energy but in precise minuscule quantities which allows his body to quickly regenerate so in essence its as if Vegeta is transforming from a fresh start every time he goes blue by swithcing from SSG. Goku is different, he is using 100% of the energy without letting it escape and he is also concentrating all that power which further boosts his strength

Also the whole too early to try this technique, arm snapping reminded me of Kaioken introduction back in U6 arc
It doesn't make sense for Black SSJ2 to be as strong as merged Zamasu, he would have just switched back to that form when Vegeta was giving him the beating of his life if that was the case. As i said claiming this is jumping to the wrong conclusion based on assumptions

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Sat May 20, 2017 3:42 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:
avasatu wrote: Frieza was about 1k times stronger than that at max power (going by uninjured full power Frieza being 200 million, according to a tough-to-find guidebook which stated that 120 million was Frieza's post-Spirit bomb full power only)
What? How have I never heard of this?
Judge for yourself
[spoiler]it's obviously a joke :lol:[/spoiler]
It's on the interwebs + It's in Japanese, so it should definitely be true. We need to update Kanzenshuu's official battle power guide, this is a break-through.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Cabba » Sat May 20, 2017 3:49 pm

DBZ Macky wrote: It's on the interwebs + It's in Japanese, so it should definitely be true. We need to update Kanzenshuu's official battle power guide, this is a break-through.
Power guides are an issue all in itself. At this point they are nothing more than analogies
The moment people start talking SSJ 1, 2, 3, 4... multipliers its when it all goes to shit, the scale of power is to huge to be talking such simple numbers like this
Think about infinite groups/sets, you can say one infinite is bigger or smaller than the other but you cant calculate by how much

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat May 20, 2017 4:25 pm

Cabba wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: There's nothing to imply at all that fighting at 100% of the power of SSJB grants you more strength. It's just that Goku can fight at 100% of the power of SSJB longer than Vegeta supposedly can. It seriously muddies the waters considering that Vegeta, for all intents and purposes, has fought at 100% of the power of SSJB against SSJ Goku Black and lost. Does this mean that SSJ Goku Black after his zenkai is as strong, or very nearly as strong, as Merged Zamasu? Because that certainly would be strongly implied to be case. And if so, this would have to mean that SSJR Goku Black technically is stronger than Merged Zamasu. And that's impossible.
It should also be noted that Goku comment, in regards to Vegeta interchanging between SSJG and SSJB to fight SSJR Goku Black, that Vegeta's power doesn't drop at all. So in those brief instances when Vegeta changes in SSJB to fight SSJR Goku his power doesn't drop at all as a SSJB. He fighting at 100%. So obviously your strength as SSJB doesn't instantly burn at still stay clocked in at 100% for short period time, even it it's very briefly for when you power up into the form itself.
Ok now i managed to read the new chapter (quite good i might add)
The premise stays the same as previous chapter with some interesting extra comments/wording
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Yes i do think people are taking the "full power only lasts for a short while" line too literally, besides there is more than one interpretation for this particular line:
For starters short could mean any time frame from a split second to a couple of minutes, there is no definition of short which can provide how long of time it is, 1 second or 1 minute we are making assumptions here, which assumption fits better the context however? and second by full power Vegeta could mean the maximum output possible from SSB transformation without containing its energy inside the body

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
The way Vegeta talks about Goku sealing energy inside his body creates a condition which was never possible before as SSB the moment you transformed you start overflowing with blue energy, you are losing/releasing it from the moment you transform. Which is why i think by full power for a short period he meant the highest possible power which the incomplete SSB allowed . Going by the logic/explanation of Vegeta, Blue starts hemorrhaging energy from the get go, which also explains why only Vegeta turned Blue for a split second when fighting Black which is why Trunks didnt notice and Black noticed it only after a while, the switch likely happened on a fraction of a second

By containing this energy within his body Goku achieves two things:
1) Maintaining 100% efficiency/energy
2) Focusing/concentrating all that energy

Here its where it gets interesting:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Previously i assumed SSG/SSB switch allowed Vegeta to charge blue inside his body. With this however it seems that Vegeta was releasing SSB energy in short explosive bursts when needed and while on SSG it allowed time for his body to regenerate the energy. Vegeta releases the energy but in precise minuscule quantities which allows his body to quickly regenerate so in essence its as if Vegeta is transforming from a fresh start every time he goes blue by swithcing from SSG. Goku is different, he is using 100% of the energy without letting it escape and he is also concentrating all that power which further boosts his strength

Also the whole too early to try this technique, arm snapping reminded me of Kaioken introduction back in U6 arc
It doesn't make sense for Black SSJ2 to be as strong as merged Zamasu, he would have just switched back to that form when Vegeta was giving him the beating of his life if that was the case. As i said claiming this is jumping to the wrong conclusion based on assumptions
But you don't overflow energy when you immediately transform into SSJB. You can fight at full power, and by that logic, contain the power of SSJB. But only for a short while. The only difference between how Goku uses SSJB compared to Vegeta is that he can contain it's power and fight at 100% much longer than Vegeta can. Vegeta can, by all mean, fight at full power. He states that to be the case and it can't be assumed that Vegeta has never fought at full power as a SSJB previously because he most certainly has against Goku Black. And there's no way the phrasing of "a short while" would equate to a anywhere near split second. If the timeframe for staying at full power of SSJB was a split-second to few seconds, or even a few minutes, it would have been specified as such. You don't say something lating a short while would last a split second, or few seconds or even a few minutes because that's far too short of a timeframe to constitute as being a "short while". Maybe I'm being a bit too pedantic about this, But if being as full power as a SSJB only last a few seconds or a split second, Vegeta would have said "a few seconds", or a maybe even "a few minutes" to be more clearer.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by avasatu » Sat May 20, 2017 4:34 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote: What? How have I never heard of this?
Judge for yourself
[spoiler]it's obviously a joke :lol:[/spoiler]
It's on the interwebs + It's in Japanese, so it should definitely be true. We need to update Kanzenshuu's official battle power guide, this is a break-through.
It not only makes sense since Frieza took a Spirit Bomb and severe beating, but it doesn't throw my calculations off by much at all. The same general conclusion is true. 120 mill vs 200 mill isn't a lot in the grand scheme of the argument. For those who don't know about the 200 mill thing, SeththeProgrammer and Chuck the Cyber Cuck I believe have YT videos on it, but I may be misremembering. I don't understand the sarcastic condescension, tbh. As a matter of fact, 1k times 180k is 180 mill, so it's a reasonable estimate whether or not its 120 mill or 200 mill.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat May 20, 2017 8:34 pm

New episode. Doesn't really tell us much, same with the preview.

Vegeta went into the Rosat so he should be stronger than before , I don't see why he'd get a significant boost as he'd probably only get a month or so worth of training.

Goku trained with Whis in the Gravity Machine for...minutes? I don't see why he should be any stronger.

Hit said that Frost had improved too and made him get serious for an instant so he too should have improved since the Tournament.

Don't think there was anything else to add.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 20, 2017 8:36 pm

According to Herms, Vegeta wants to surpass Goku so I guess that confirms he's weaker than him.

Goku must have surpassed him in between the FT and ToP arcs.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MagmonKai » Sat May 20, 2017 8:49 pm

ZombieVito wrote:According to Herms, Vegeta wants to surpass Goku so I guess that confirms he's weaker than him.

Goku must have surpassed him in between the FT and ToP arcs.
He's probably thinking in terms of surpassing Goku's Kaio-Ken

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by IKevinX » Sat May 20, 2017 9:00 pm

Vegeta wants to train with Popo. That closeup was indication of Popo's power.

How strong do you have to be to make a casual Hit get serious? If Frieza is any indication, Frost is alos able to increase in power by a lot.
Since he's been in his final form on the run ever since U6 arc, he can surely output more power in his Final Form. But will he achieve God level or merely a warm up for our Frieza's final form?
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat May 20, 2017 9:05 pm

IKevinX wrote:Vegeta wants to train with Popo. That closeup was indication of Popo's power.

How strong do you have to be to make a casual Hit get serious? If Frieza is any indication, Frost is alos able to increase in power by a lot.
Since he's been in his final form on the run ever since U6 arc, he can surely output more power in his Final Form. But will he achieve God level or merely a warm up for our Frieza's final form?
Not very strong? Base Goku managed to do it.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by IKevinX » Sat May 20, 2017 9:36 pm

Doctor. wrote:
IKevinX wrote:Vegeta wants to train with Popo. That closeup was indication of Popo's power.

How strong do you have to be to make a casual Hit get serious? If Frieza is any indication, Frost is alos able to increase in power by a lot.
Since he's been in his final form on the run ever since U6 arc, he can surely output more power in his Final Form. But will he achieve God level or merely a warm up for our Frieza's final form?
Not very strong? Base Goku managed to do it.
Get Hit serious? Not really, Base Goku only served to learn how to counter Hit's timeskip. Besides, Frost was already stronger than Base Goku and Base Vegeta in the U6 arc.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat May 20, 2017 9:48 pm

Bullza wrote:New episode. Doesn't really tell us much, same with the preview.

Vegeta went into the Rosat so he should be stronger than before , I don't see why he'd get a significant boost as he'd probably only get a month or so worth of training.

Goku trained with Whis in the Gravity Machine for...minutes? I don't see why he should be any stronger.

Hit said that Frost had improved too and made him get serious for an instant so he too should have improved since the Tournament.

Don't think there was anything else to add.
Vegeta can stay there for over two months.
Is relative to the amount of power that he can have. He aims to overcome Goku, so his training will be much more intense, based on his rival (not to mention that there is little time left for the tournament, so he has to stay longer Strong fast).
In two months in the Android Saga, Vegeta surpassed the SSJ. In two months here he can do a lot to speak the truth, so I believe he has become much stronger
With the power gains we're having in this Saga, it would not be surprising for Vegeta to get much stronger
ZombieVito wrote:According to Herms, Vegeta wants to surpass Goku so I guess that confirms he's weaker than him.

Goku must have surpassed him in between the FT and ToP arcs.
The Kaioken is the only thing that leaves Goku wide in front of Vegeta.
Because it is a technique that Vegeta does not master, then he probably wants to reach the level of his rival (even with the use of Kaioken)

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat May 20, 2017 10:04 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Cabba wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: There's nothing to imply at all that fighting at 100% of the power of SSJB grants you more strength. It's just that Goku can fight at 100% of the power of SSJB longer than Vegeta supposedly can. It seriously muddies the waters considering that Vegeta, for all intents and purposes, has fought at 100% of the power of SSJB against SSJ Goku Black and lost. Does this mean that SSJ Goku Black after his zenkai is as strong, or very nearly as strong, as Merged Zamasu? Because that certainly would be strongly implied to be case. And if so, this would have to mean that SSJR Goku Black technically is stronger than Merged Zamasu. And that's impossible.
It should also be noted that Goku comment, in regards to Vegeta interchanging between SSJG and SSJB to fight SSJR Goku Black, that Vegeta's power doesn't drop at all. So in those brief instances when Vegeta changes in SSJB to fight SSJR Goku his power doesn't drop at all as a SSJB. He fighting at 100%. So obviously your strength as SSJB doesn't instantly burn at still stay clocked in at 100% for short period time, even it it's very briefly for when you power up into the form itself.
Ok now i managed to read the new chapter (quite good i might add)
The premise stays the same as previous chapter with some interesting extra comments/wording
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Yes i do think people are taking the "full power only lasts for a short while" line too literally, besides there is more than one interpretation for this particular line:
For starters short could mean any time frame from a split second to a couple of minutes, there is no definition of short which can provide how long of time it is, 1 second or 1 minute we are making assumptions here, which assumption fits better the context however? and second by full power Vegeta could mean the maximum output possible from SSB transformation without containing its energy inside the body

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
The way Vegeta talks about Goku sealing energy inside his body creates a condition which was never possible before as SSB the moment you transformed you start overflowing with blue energy, you are losing/releasing it from the moment you transform. Which is why i think by full power for a short period he meant the highest possible power which the incomplete SSB allowed . Going by the logic/explanation of Vegeta, Blue starts hemorrhaging energy from the get go, which also explains why only Vegeta turned Blue for a split second when fighting Black which is why Trunks didnt notice and Black noticed it only after a while, the switch likely happened on a fraction of a second

By containing this energy within his body Goku achieves two things:
1) Maintaining 100% efficiency/energy
2) Focusing/concentrating all that energy

Here its where it gets interesting:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Previously i assumed SSG/SSB switch allowed Vegeta to charge blue inside his body. With this however it seems that Vegeta was releasing SSB energy in short explosive bursts when needed and while on SSG it allowed time for his body to regenerate the energy. Vegeta releases the energy but in precise minuscule quantities which allows his body to quickly regenerate so in essence its as if Vegeta is transforming from a fresh start every time he goes blue by swithcing from SSG. Goku is different, he is using 100% of the energy without letting it escape and he is also concentrating all that power which further boosts his strength

Also the whole too early to try this technique, arm snapping reminded me of Kaioken introduction back in U6 arc
It doesn't make sense for Black SSJ2 to be as strong as merged Zamasu, he would have just switched back to that form when Vegeta was giving him the beating of his life if that was the case. As i said claiming this is jumping to the wrong conclusion based on assumptions
But you don't overflow energy when you immediately transform into SSJB. You can fight at full power, and by that logic, contain the power of SSJB. But only for a short while. The only difference between how Goku uses SSJB compared to Vegeta is that he can contain it's power and fight at 100% much longer than Vegeta can. Vegeta can, by all mean, fight at full power. He states that to be the case and it can't be assumed that Vegeta has never fought at full power as a SSJB previously because he most certainly has against Goku Black. And there's no way the phrasing of "a short while" would equate to a anywhere near split second. If the timeframe for staying at full power of SSJB was a split-second to few seconds, or even a few minutes, it would have been specified as such. You don't say something lating a short while would last a split second, or few seconds or even a few minutes because that's far too short of a timeframe to constitute as being a "short while". Maybe I'm being a bit too pedantic about this, But if being as full power as a SSJB only last a few seconds or a split second, Vegeta would have said "a few seconds", or a maybe even "a few minutes" to be more clearer.
I think the part of "sealing" the energy that overflows from the SSB, into your body gives some kind of Power Boost in the Goku (even if it has not been said).

If the absurd amount of energy that Goku / Vegeta releases by turning into SSB is concentrated all within the body, in addition to risking it "breaking" (as we saw Vegeta speak) and ki leak, caused burns, then the power Which was concentrated gives an absurd Power Boost, in addition to overcoming the weaknesses that the form had.
Vegeta released large amounts of power quickly by transforming into SSB, using all the power he had as SSB, but I think Goku did something different and was more effective than that.

After all, they found different ways to dominate SSB

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Cabba » Sat May 20, 2017 11:46 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: But you don't overflow energy when you immediately transform into SSJB. You can fight at full power, and by that logic, contain the power of SSJB. But only for a short while. The only difference between how Goku uses SSJB compared to Vegeta is that he can contain it's power and fight at 100% much longer than Vegeta can. Vegeta can, by all mean, fight at full power. He states that to be the case and it can't be assumed that Vegeta has never fought at full power as a SSJB previously because he most certainly has against Goku Black. And there's no way the phrasing of "a short while" would equate to a anywhere near split second. If the timeframe for staying at full power of SSJB was a split-second to few seconds, or even a few minutes, it would have been specified as such. You don't say something lating a short while would last a split second, or few seconds or even a few minutes because that's far too short of a timeframe to constitute as being a "short while". Maybe I'm being a bit too pedantic about this, But if being as full power as a SSJB only last a few seconds or a split second, Vegeta would have said "a few seconds", or a maybe even "a few minutes" to be more clearer.
By the very logic used on this chapter blue overflows with energy unless you contain it, the moment they transform Blue energy starts escaping their body thats the very nature of it. Goku needed to take a moment to focus and seal the overflowing energy inside him
This was made all the more obvious when Vegeta says Goku sealed the energy inside his body, and that holding that amount of power inside him could break him. Going by the very explanation of how SSB works you cant be at 100% since the energy is constantly overflowing. The moment they turn blue the energy starts overflowing. It is not implied that only after a while the energy starts leaking, like the body gives in and it starts leaking, the leak starts the moment your turn into SSB

Goku has to take a moment and focus to seal the energy inside him this is explicitly shown
[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Also notice how his arm gives in to the pressure and the energy starts leaking. He again has to focus to contain it back.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Another Key point of this is that by sealing all the energy inside his body, something that was not done before not even by (vegeta SSG/SSB) Goku is focusing all this energy for his attacks, resistance and speed. If they were able to contain SSB energy for a brief period of time like you claim then Vegeta would have experienced the strain on his body like Goku is now. Also Vegeta would stay for longer as SSB before switching back to SSG. He made split seconds switches for explosive power release and then back to SSG.

Vegeta is switching back and forth so fast that trunks cant tell and it takes a while for Black to figure it out. Let me ask you this:
If you think they are able to contain 100% power inside them for limited periods of time (say 30 seconds or even a full fat minute) then how come Vegeta only switched to Blue for a split seconds for explosive release of power?

Having said all this
Full power could mean operating at max capacity previously known in incomplete SSB, the key advantage Complete SSB has over all previous one is that it focuses the energy inside the body, Goku actively did this. This is something akin to what Goku and Vegeta did in the anime on that other dimensional place Whiss sent them

How much would you classify a short while as? 30 seconds? a minute, 5 minutes?
For arguments sake lets say its a minute, even still that "full power" is not the same level as that explosive release of power SSG/SSB Vegeta has and even smaller than Complete SSB.
Vegeta switch has the advantage of releasing explosive bursts of power not previously possible at any stage of the incomplete SSB transformation and Goku has the advantage of focusing all of blue energy inside his body. Thats how the two of them differentiate from incomplete blue.

At the very beginning of the fight Black was surprised by Vegetas speed and power
[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
If previously he was able to operate at the same level as Complete SSB for say minute then black wouldn't be surprised since he would have seen both the power and speed before
So what gives?
1. Either releasing Blue energy in explosive bursts (vegeta) and sealing/focusing energy inside body (goku) has an added benefit. So Incomplete SSB full energy energy is diffuse and last a short period (say 5 minutes), so even "at 100%" it lacks the impact of the other forms. In terms of gun analogy a bullet of the same caliber with the same amount of powder fired from a a long barreled gun will travel faster and thus have a more powerful impact than the same bullet fired from a short barreled gun
2. or the energy starts leaking from the get got in incomplete blue and what they mean by full power is the max strength incomplete blue allows while leaking energy. Since the amount of blue energy is so huge you can still operate at "full power" for a short period even while leaking the energy

3. or it could be a mix of both so you need to either focus/seal the energy to exploit the max potential of the energy stored and releasing it in explosives bursts (vegeta)gets close to exploiting the energy in this efficient manner but not quite on the levels of Complete SSB. So in incomplete SSB you could very well have all this energy for a short period of time, but you cant make full use of all of it while attacking so a portion of it just sits the idle or by focusing the energy you use it more efficiently. A good analogy would be multiplication of force seen in hydraulic press

4. or Incomplete blue short period its in the seconds

Whatever the case, they haven't fought at this level of power and speed before while on Incomplete SSB

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun May 21, 2017 12:13 am

Cabba wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: But you don't overflow energy when you immediately transform into SSJB. You can fight at full power, and by that logic, contain the power of SSJB. But only for a short while. The only difference between how Goku uses SSJB compared to Vegeta is that he can contain it's power and fight at 100% much longer than Vegeta can. Vegeta can, by all mean, fight at full power. He states that to be the case and it can't be assumed that Vegeta has never fought at full power as a SSJB previously because he most certainly has against Goku Black. And there's no way the phrasing of "a short while" would equate to a anywhere near split second. If the timeframe for staying at full power of SSJB was a split-second to few seconds, or even a few minutes, it would have been specified as such. You don't say something lating a short while would last a split second, or few seconds or even a few minutes because that's far too short of a timeframe to constitute as being a "short while". Maybe I'm being a bit too pedantic about this, But if being as full power as a SSJB only last a few seconds or a split second, Vegeta would have said "a few seconds", or a maybe even "a few minutes" to be more clearer.
By the very logic used on this chapter blue overflows with energy unless you contain it, the moment they transform Blue energy starts escaping their body thats the very nature of it. Goku needed to take a moment to focus and seal the overflowing energy inside him
This was made all the more obvious when Vegeta says Goku sealed the energy inside his body, and that holding that amount of power inside him could break him. Going by the very explanation of how SSB works you cant be at 100% since the energy is constantly overflowing. The moment they turn blue the energy starts overflowing. It is not implied that only after a while the energy starts leaking, like the body gives in and it starts leaking, the leak starts the moment your turn into SSB

Goku has to take a moment and focus to seal the energy inside him this is explicitly shown
[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Also notice how his arm gives in to the pressure and the energy starts leaking. He again has to focus to contain it back.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Another Key point of this is that by sealing all the energy inside his body, something that was not done before not even by (vegeta SSG/SSB) Goku is focusing all this energy for his attacks, resistance and speed. If they were able to contain SSB energy for a brief period of time like you claim then Vegeta would have experienced the strain on his body like Goku is now. Also Vegeta would stay for longer as SSB before switching back to SSG. He made split seconds switches for explosive power release and then back to SSG.

Vegeta is switching back and forth so fast that trunks cant tell and it takes a while for Black to figure it out. Let me ask you this:
If you think they are able to contain 100% power inside them for limited periods of time (say 30 seconds or even a full fat minute) then how come Vegeta only switched to Blue for a split seconds for explosive release of power?

Having said all this
Full power could mean operating at max capacity previously known in incomplete SSB, the key advantage Complete SSB has over all previous one is that it focuses the energy inside the body, Goku actively did this. This is something akin to what Goku and Vegeta did in the anime on that other dimensional place Whiss sent them

How much would you classify a short while as? 30 seconds? a minute, 5 minutes?
For arguments sake lets say its a minute, even still that "full power" is not the same level as that explosive release of power SSG/SSB Vegeta has and even smaller than Complete SSB.
Vegeta switch has the advantage of releasing explosive bursts of power not previously possible at any stage of the incomplete SSB transformation and Goku has the advantage of focusing all of blue energy inside his body. Thats how the two of them differentiate from incomplete blue.

At the very beginning of the fight Black was surprised by Vegetas speed and power
[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
If previously he was able to operate at the same level as Complete SSB for say minute then black wouldn't be surprised since he would have seen both the power and speed before
So what gives?
1. Either releasing Blue energy in explosive bursts (vegeta) and sealing/focusing energy inside body (goku) has an added benefit. So Incomplete SSB full energy energy is diffuse and last a short period (say 5 minutes), so even "at 100%" it lacks the impact of the other forms. In terms of gun analogy a bullet of the same caliber with the same amount of powder fired from a a long barreled gun will travel faster and thus have a more powerful impact than the same bullet fired from a short barreled gun
2. or the energy starts leaking from the get got in incomplete blue and what they mean by full power is the max strength incomplete blue allows while leaking energy. Since the amount of blue energy is so huge you can still operate at "full power" for a short period even while leaking the energy

3. or it could be a mix of both so you need to either focus/seal the energy to exploit the max potential of the energy stored and releasing it in explosives bursts (vegeta)gets close to exploiting the energy in this efficient manner but not quite on the levels of Complete SSB

or Incomplete blue short period its in the seconds

Whatever the case, they haven't fought at this level of power and speed before while on Incomplete SSB
Really, this is an impressive explanation, it makes sense.

I think it makes sense, that by transforming into SSB, energy begins to escape from your body in an incredible way.
Is so much energy, that to contain it inside the body is something that can cause it to break, which would already indicate why the Power Boost that gave Goku so great.
Not to mention that by sealing this energy, it can also leak, because it is extremely difficult to control within the body that amount of Ki struggling.

Basically, Vegeta has tried to minimize SSB weaknesses in a way other than Goku, a way in which he does not totally eliminate those weaknesses, even though he may be able to fight 100% for a short time.
While Goku found a way to dominate the SSB completely, without weaknesses, being able to be used constantly

I just think this would imply that the form has a much higher energy expenditure than the SSJ3, which I do not think. After all, we saw Vegeta turning into SSB against Black SSJ without hesitation, and fighting him for a long time

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Sun May 21, 2017 1:18 am

avasatu wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Judge for yourself
[spoiler]it's obviously a joke :lol:[/spoiler]
It's on the interwebs + It's in Japanese, so it should definitely be true. We need to update Kanzenshuu's official battle power guide, this is a break-through.
It not only makes sense since Frieza took a Spirit Bomb and severe beating, but it doesn't throw my calculations off by much at all. The same general conclusion is true. 120 mill vs 200 mill isn't a lot in the grand scheme of the argument. For those who don't know about the 200 mill thing, SeththeProgrammer and Chuck the Cyber Cuck I believe have YT videos on it, but I may be misremembering. I don't understand the sarcastic condescension, tbh. As a matter of fact, 1k times 180k is 180 mill, so it's a reasonable estimate whether or not its 120 mill or 200 mill.
I apologize, I didn't mean to come off as condescending. I have no problem with Freeza being 200m at "Max power" but I don't see why you have to make shit up for it. As far as I am aware, there is no such entry that puts Freeza above 120m and says that he lost power because of the Spirit Bomb. I don't remember Seth making a video about this, can you share the link?
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Sun May 21, 2017 1:32 am

Some interesting tidbits in this episode:

- Gohan was stated to have a power that "rivals Goku's", by the narrator. So it's more likely, to him, to be around SSG/SSB levels.
- U6 was stated to be, from the Grand Priest, a rival to U7. Not just Hit. So Cabba & co., in the U6 tournament, must have been indeed very strong.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by avasatu » Sun May 21, 2017 2:28 am

DBZ Macky wrote:
avasatu wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote: It's on the interwebs + It's in Japanese, so it should definitely be true. We need to update Kanzenshuu's official battle power guide, this is a break-through.
It not only makes sense since Frieza took a Spirit Bomb and severe beating, but it doesn't throw my calculations off by much at all. The same general conclusion is true. 120 mill vs 200 mill isn't a lot in the grand scheme of the argument. For those who don't know about the 200 mill thing, SeththeProgrammer and Chuck the Cyber Cuck I believe have YT videos on it, but I may be misremembering. I don't understand the sarcastic condescension, tbh. As a matter of fact, 1k times 180k is 180 mill, so it's a reasonable estimate whether or not its 120 mill or 200 mill.
I apologize, I didn't mean to come off as condescending. I have no problem with Freeza being 200m at "Max power" but I don't see why you have to make shit up for it. As far as I am aware, there is no such entry that puts Freeza above 120m and says that he lost power because of the Spirit Bomb. I don't remember Seth making a video about this, can you share the link?
No worries. Here is the video from Chuck, and I believe Seth has addressed it in his Discord chat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUNbuHeRRnk&t=7s

In all honesty, it's one of the less controversial, or at least least impactful things in my scaling. My saying Dabura is 1/1000th of max Fat Buu is more hand wavy, as well as me high balling current base Gohan's ultimate multiplier.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun May 21, 2017 2:42 am

I'd like to them do something with Vegeta. In the anime it seems that no matter how strong he gets, Goku will always be stronger because of the Kaioken and the ability to increase his power multiple fold at a moment's notice.

Seeing as it's become something of a common occurrence for Goku now too then it's pushing Vegeta aside a little and I thought they did a good job of keeping them sorta equalish for a good while too.

I have no idea what they could do but it'd be nice if he had some kind of answer of his own for Kaioken.

It's not really a problem with the manga because Vegeta can always learn this complete Blue form himself but he'll probably never learn Kaioken.

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