Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[JigSaw910]

Given the narration, the previous episode's dialogue and storyboard, and the previous episode's footage of Gohan taking on SSB/KK Goku being overlayed with said narration, it's a reasonable assumption to make that Gohan is at the very least approaching SSB Goku's level.

Maybe place him a bit lower, but definitely approaching that realm.

Yep. Magazine previews also noted "Gohan displays enough power to hold his own against Goku, showing that he's grown stronger than ever before". He's definitely getting there, regardless if you like the hand wavy-ness of the plot or not. After what they did with Future Trunks I'm not surprised in the least.

It's not like I'm against it aprioristically, but there are plenty of counter-arguments to be considered. Gohan stated also that he was fully powered right before he faced SS2 Goku: are we supposed to believe he showed his full power and then started fighting at 1/1000 of his true strength? Also, why would Goku go SS2 after seeing Gohan's full might already? If Gohan wanted to fight Goku "seriously" couldn't he have cornered him immediately by raising his ki?

As far as I'm concerned the episode did make much more of a point in showing Goku "holding his own" against SS2 Goku, unlike the (barely?) ten seconds in which he managed to punch Goku two times - without us even seeing if the blow sorted some effect or real damage on Goku.

But even admitting that those punches would've made Goku lose ground for one second, people give if anything way too much credit to Toei's coreography: they've given us stuff like base Goku and Vegeta punching Janemba, Tien somehow giving Cell Games Trunks a fight and Super of all things has been the most consistent "offender" of the sacred "characters is over two times stronger = won't bulge even if he's showered with fists". If something looks cool or dramatic enough and they need to put the spotlight on a character they'll do it even without acknowledging or establishing a tremendous (or, technically, proportional) increase in power. The moment we've seen Krillin being able to repel even for one split-second a Kamehameha of SSB Goku should've probably already sealed the deal.

didnt he say this is my current full power? with that being said i find it really shocking some of you guys have a hard time seeing saiyans get stronger a battle rages on. This is knowledge we should all know. Gohan clearly got stronger as the fight went on. As you can tell by his right fist having enhanced aura during the blue fight.

even so the magazine and preview already stated this so this should be old new now

[LowRyder2005]

Yep. Magazine previews also noted "Gohan displays enough power to hold his own against Goku, showing that he's grown stronger than ever before". He's definitely getting there, regardless if you like the hand wavy-ness of the plot or not. After what they did with Future Trunks I'm not surprised in the least.

It's not like I'm against it aprioristically, but there are plenty of counter-arguments to be considered. Gohan stated also that he was fully powered right before he faced SS2 Goku: are we supposed to believe he showed his full power and then started fighting at 1/1000 of his true strength? Also, why would Goku go SS2 after seeing Gohan's full might already? If Gohan wanted to fight Goku "seriously" couldn't he have cornered him immediately by raising his ki?

As far as I'm concerned the episode did make much more of a point in showing Goku "holding his own" against SS2 Goku, unlike the (barely?) ten seconds in which he managed to punch Goku two times - without us even seeing if the blow sorted some effect or real damage on Goku.

But even admitting that those punches would've made Goku lose ground for one second, people give if anything way too much credit to Toei's coreography: they've given us stuff like base Goku and Vegeta punching Janemba, Tien somehow giving Cell Games Trunks a fight and Super of all things has been the most consistent "offender" of the sacred "characters is over two times stronger = won't bulge even if he's showered with fists". If something looks cool or dramatic enough and they need to put the spotlight on a character they'll do it even without acknowledging or establishing a tremendous (or, technically, proportional) increase in power. The moment we've seen Krillin being able to repel even for one split-second a Kamehameha of SSB Goku should've probably already sealed the deal.

didnt he say this is my current full power? with that being said i find it really shocking some of you guys have a hard time seeing saiyans get stronger a battle rages on. This is knowledge we should all know. Gohan clearly got stronger as the fight went on. As you can tell by his right fist having enhanced aura during the blue fight.

even so the magazine and preview already stated this so this should be old new now

Err... I don't really get the allusion, though: I guess you are suggesting that he started about slightly stronger than his old self and that he reached SSB Goku's level while fighting him? While it would reflect Toei's lopsided writing where everyone can duck it out with everyone, I honestly doubt that it was ever the intention at all. It would also bring forth the usual questions like: and why couldn't he match Beerus? Why couldn't he fight get to Buutenks' level? Yeah, the almighty power of the "plot" wasn't added back then, but are we sure we really want to go there?

Honestly, as far as I can possibly tell, the script might have been "Gohan fights SS2 Goku for five minutes and they are equal, then Gohan puts up a valiant resistance but he is ultimately overwhelmed by SSB Goku using the Kaioken" and whoever got the storyboard down thought the sequence of Goku and Gohan briefly exchanging punches before Gohan got leveled was cool and they just did that. What I'm trying to say is that I feel like no particular emphasis was placed on the fact that Gohan randomly landed a punch on Goku; it was meant to be a very brief transition scene to Gohan's demise at the hands of Kaioken Blue with the intent to make Gohan appear brave because he was put in a David vs. Goliath situation (a.k.a. "Piccolo's sweat and furrowed brow the moment Gohan attacks Goku must mean this guy has no chance") and yet still attacked Goku relentlessly.
More in general, focusing on the smallest tidbits of Super - again, especially with the manga formula - has proven to be only source of nigh-incomprensible writing in my experience. I prefer to rationalize it from a production perspective, so that I'll also know when a character is supposed to be strong and when he's still supposed to be outmatched against a serious opponent and actually putting a fight because of "circumstances", which Super itself tends to add a whole darn lot.

Alas, the moment we'll be told something like "if Gohan fights at full power he could beat Toppo - or someone equally powerful - along with a statement like "Gohan is the third-strongest of the team (because he's stronger than Freeza, ndr.)" we'll know where he stands without second-guessing it. Clearly, I don't know if that will happen or not: I do think Toei wanted to show a Gohan who still was behind far behind his "godly" father and more or less comparable to his regular and improved Super Saiyan forms, but regardless of whatever level of power he's supposed to have I still think they'd do a poor job of keeping it consistent with the old set of rules. He could be "Blue tier" and get punched around for a few seconds by someone who's then beaten by Super Saiyan Vegeta in the battle royal, or he could equal to a Super Saiyan 2 in Super and lay waste for a few seconds to one of the Pride Troopers. Much like Roshi, Jaco and Piccolo had "equal"resistance when they were hit by Tagoma or, well, whatever Super has thrown at the viewers in its battle scenes.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vegeta got that strong because of anger, Black said it.

Besides Vegeta needs to be stronger than a powered up version of SSR Black that was stronger than angered Goku that was stronger than SSR Black that kicked their ass.

This is contradictory to my see,Or at least Black was wrong.
It became clear that Vegeta got stronger due to his training, including in the NEP Goku says to show the results of his training to Black.

For me it does not make sense to be a Rage Boost, since everything indicated that he really got stronger

I think a way to interpret Gohan's current strenght is going by how big of a boost his Ultimate form is. We know from the Buu saga that the Ultimate form was a big increase, even bigger than the SSJ3. Going by their match in base forms, both Goku and Gohan seemed pretty equal. If they were equal in base forms, then in SSJ and SSJ2 they would be equal. However, since Ultimate form is < SSJ3, then Ultimate Gohan is obviously far stronger than SSJ2 Goku.

How can we compare Ultimate Gohan with SSJB Goku? Well, the boost of SSJB we know is far stronger than the Ultimate form, therefore Goku in SSJB was far stronger than Ultimate Gohan, but far weaker than Ultimate Gohan in both his SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms.

It may be that now, his Ultimate form is not able to give such a boost in his power, as it was in the Boo Saga. After all, Goku was much weaker than Gohan in that Saga.

But Goku clearly showed to be able to face Gohan only in the form of SSJ2, which already means enough thing. At most he would be stronger than Goku SSJ3.

The base form of Goku having Gotenks SSJ3 level now got kind of weird. After all, how could Gohan, who barely endured Piccolo in SSJ2, have such an increase in base form?
The only reason would be to consider the state '' Beyond god '' even though it has never been mentioned in the anime.

Did you see Dbz Super Ep91? The announcer already stated gohan rivaled goku in strength. This was further stated when Toei Purposely showed the gohan/goku fight when goku went blue and barely any other parts of that fight. Its confirmd gohan is blue level...rather it be a very weak ssb level he is still in fact ssb power in strength.

So it means that because the announcer says that "The strongest team in universe 7 is assembled" does it mean that Kuririn, Kame and Tenshinhan are specifically stronger than Goten and TrunksS? Of course not, just as "rivaling" does not want Say that Gohan Be able to fight with the stronger form of Goku, may have referred to the SSJ2, which is more logical since he rivaled against Goku SSJ2.

It's not like I'm against it aprioristically, but there are plenty of counter-arguments to be considered. Gohan stated also that he was fully powered right before he faced SS2 Goku: are we supposed to believe he showed his full power and then started fighting at 1/1000 of his true strength? Also, why would Goku go SS2 after seeing Gohan's full might already? If Gohan wanted to fight Goku "seriously" couldn't he have cornered him immediately by raising his ki?

As far as I'm concerned the episode did make much more of a point in showing Goku "holding his own" against SS2 Goku, unlike the (barely?) ten seconds in which he managed to punch Goku two times - without us even seeing if the blow sorted some effect or real damage on Goku.

But even admitting that those punches would've made Goku lose ground for one second, people give if anything way too much credit to Toei's coreography: they've given us stuff like base Goku and Vegeta punching Janemba, Tien somehow giving Cell Games Trunks a fight and Super of all things has been the most consistent "offender" of the sacred "characters is over two times stronger = won't bulge even if he's showered with fists". If something looks cool or dramatic enough and they need to put the spotlight on a character they'll do it even without acknowledging or establishing a tremendous (or, technically, proportional) increase in power. The moment we've seen Krillin being able to repel even for one split-second a Kamehameha of SSB Goku should've probably already sealed the deal.

didnt he say this is my current full power? with that being said i find it really shocking some of you guys have a hard time seeing saiyans get stronger a battle rages on. This is knowledge we should all know. Gohan clearly got stronger as the fight went on. As you can tell by his right fist having enhanced aura during the blue fight.

even so the magazine and preview already stated this so this should be old new now

Err... I don't really get the allusion, though: I guess you are suggesting that he started about slightly stronger than his old self and that he reached SSB Goku's level while fighting him? While it would reflect Toei's lopsided writing where everyone can duck it out with everyone, I honestly doubt that it was ever the intention at all. It would also bring forth the usual questions like: and why couldn't he match Beerus? Why couldn't he fight get to Buutenks' level? Yeah, the almighty power of the "plot" wasn't added back then, but are we sure we really want to go there?

Honestly, as far as I can possibly tell, the script might have been "Gohan fights SS2 Goku for five minutes and they are equal, then Gohan puts up a valiant resistance but he is ultimately overwhelmed by SSB Goku using the Kaioken" and whoever got the storyboard down thought the sequence of Goku and Gohan briefly exchanging punches before Gohan got leveled was cool and they just did that. What I'm trying to say is that I feel like no particular emphasis was placed on the fact that Gohan randomly landed a punch on Goku; it was meant to be a very brief transition scene to Gohan's demise at the hands of Kaioken Blue with the intent to make Gohan appear brave because he was put in a David vs. Goliath situation (a.k.a. "Piccolo's sweat and furrowed brow the moment Gohan attacks Goku must mean this guy has no chance") and yet still attacked Goku relentlessly.
More in general, focusing on the smallest tidbits of Super - again, especially with the manga formula - has proven to be only source of nigh-incomprensible writing in my experience. I prefer to rationalize it from a production perspective, so that I'll also know when a character is supposed to be strong and when he's still supposed to be outmatched against a serious opponent and actually putting a fight because of "circumstances", which Super itself tends to add a whole darn lot.

Alas, the moment we'll be told something like "if Gohan fights at full power he could beat Toppo - or someone equally powerful - along with a statement like "Gohan is the third-strongest of the team (because he's stronger than Freeza, ndr.)" we'll know where he stands without second-guessing it. Clearly, I don't know if that will happen or not: I do think Toei wanted to show a Gohan who still was behind far behind his "godly" father and more or less comparable to his regular and improved Super Saiyan forms, but regardless of whatever level of power he's supposed to have I still think they'd do a poor job of keeping it consistent with the old set of rules. He could be "Blue tier" and get punched around for a few seconds by someone who's then beaten by Super Saiyan Vegeta in the battle royal, or he could equal to a Super Saiyan 2 in Super and lay waste for a few seconds to one of the Pride Troopers. Much like Roshi, Jaco and Piccolo had "equal"resistance when they were hit by Tagoma or, well, whatever Super has thrown at the viewers in its battle scenes.

I agree. You can not put Gohan level Goku SSB, with 5 seconds of fighting, just because he hit a few punches (it is common in DBS someone weaker do this) .It's hard to imagine that he was being pressured by Goku SSJ2, Uses only 0.0000000001 of his strength, which was then able to rival Goku SSB. There is nothing to show that he is at that level

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think a lot of the debate of where to place the current Ultimate Gohan on his father's power scale depends on how you perceive the differences between forms and the usage of suppression.

For me personally, at least, I can buy Ultimate Gohan being on his way to reaching the level of gods if one were to assume his base form was in the same ballpark as that of Goku's singular very-strong-but-not-god-level base form, as well as assume that the Ultimate boost is the same as it was when he first gained this power-up, when his base form was beneath Final Form Freeza's original full power.

Basically, think of it like reaching ballpark-Majin-Buu-level power in base form, then multiplying one's power with the Ultimate state from that ballpark-Majin-Buu-level base power. It'd also create a nice estimate for how strong the god-forms and equivalent opponents are, at a few dozen times stronger than the next strongest transformation Goku has, SS3 multiplying a ballpark-Majin-Buu-level, which would make the lowest of god-level opponents a few thousand times stronger than some form of Majin Buu.

Again, this is just my personal interpretation of how this works as of the latest episode.

[TheMikado]

I think a lot of the debate of where to place the current Ultimate Gohan on his father's power scale depends on how you perceive the differences between forms and the usage of suppression.

For me personally, at least, I can buy Ultimate Gohan being on his way to reaching the level of gods if one were to assume his base form was in the same ballpark as that of Goku's singular very-strong-but-not-god-level base form, as well as assume that the Ultimate boost is the same as it was when he first gained this power-up, when his base form was beneath Final Form Freeza's original full power.

Basically, think of it like reaching ballpark-Majin-Buu-level power in base form, then multiplying one's power with the Ultimate state from that ballpark-Majin-Buu-level base power. It'd also create a nice estimate for how strong the god-forms and equivalent opponents are, at a few dozen times stronger than the next strongest transformation Goku has, SS3 multiplying a ballpark-Majin-Buu-level, which would make the lowest of god-level opponents a few thousand times stronger than some form of Majin Buu.

Again, this is just my personal interpretation of how this works as of the latest episode.

I would agree with that however the problem becomes how the heck did Gohan get that strong in base??? He would literally need to get 400-500x stronger in the course of a couple of hours just to get to that level, and then stack Ultimate on top of that without using any plot device or RoSaT mechanism.

[Ki Breaker]

How strong will present ultimate Gohan's kikoho be like?

[Lord Beerus]

How strong will present ultimate Gohan's kikoho be like?

I'm sure Gohan can't use that technique.

[ssbgoku]

I think a lot of the debate of where to place the current Ultimate Gohan on his father's power scale depends on how you perceive the differences between forms and the usage of suppression.

For me personally, at least, I can buy Ultimate Gohan being on his way to reaching the level of gods if one were to assume his base form was in the same ballpark as that of Goku's singular very-strong-but-not-god-level base form, as well as assume that the Ultimate boost is the same as it was when he first gained this power-up, when his base form was beneath Final Form Freeza's original full power.

Basically, think of it like reaching ballpark-Majin-Buu-level power in base form, then multiplying one's power with the Ultimate state from that ballpark-Majin-Buu-level base power. It'd also create a nice estimate for how strong the god-forms and equivalent opponents are, at a few dozen times stronger than the next strongest transformation Goku has, SS3 multiplying a ballpark-Majin-Buu-level, which would make the lowest of god-level opponents a few thousand times stronger than some form of Majin Buu.

Again, this is just my personal interpretation of how this works as of the latest episode.

I was ready to agree with you on this until I read bold part. Sorry but even Toryiama himself said that he didn't want ssj to be more then 10 multiplier in one of interview, then there were some rumors that only in namek saga ssj was 50 x boost, but it was proved false as far as I know. However his words about having none transfarmation above 50 or close seems to be still correct.

That why (either there was retcoon on this gap when movie was decided to be serialized as anime so it can last longer) and I see ssg only as x10 ss3. Yeah I know it sounds crazy but that is how I see it. I am not sure about ssb. How it could work in bog ?

base vegetto was in my mind still below ss2 goku, I would say half of ss2 goku buu saga. so SS Vegetto was only 12,5 times stronger, I think. Goku in bog get to Ultimate gohan level from buu arc so gap closed to be only at the most 5 times weaker I think.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think a lot of the debate of where to place the current Ultimate Gohan on his father's power scale depends on how you perceive the differences between forms and the usage of suppression.

For me personally, at least, I can buy Ultimate Gohan being on his way to reaching the level of gods if one were to assume his base form was in the same ballpark as that of Goku's singular very-strong-but-not-god-level base form, as well as assume that the Ultimate boost is the same as it was when he first gained this power-up, when his base form was beneath Final Form Freeza's original full power.

Basically, think of it like reaching ballpark-Majin-Buu-level power in base form, then multiplying one's power with the Ultimate state from that ballpark-Majin-Buu-level base power. It'd also create a nice estimate for how strong the god-forms and equivalent opponents are, at a few dozen times stronger than the next strongest transformation Goku has, SS3 multiplying a ballpark-Majin-Buu-level, which would make the lowest of god-level opponents a few thousand times stronger than some form of Majin Buu.

Again, this is just my personal interpretation of how this works as of the latest episode.

I was ready to agree with you on this until I read bold part. Sorry but even Toryiama himself said that he didn't want ssj to be more then 10 multiplier in one of interview, then there were some rumors that only in namek saga ssj was 50 x boost, but it was proved false as far as I know. However his words about having none transfarmation above 50 or close seems to be still correct.

That why (either there was retcoon on this gap when movie was decided to be serialized as anime so it can last longer) and I see ssg only as x10 ss3. Yeah I know it sounds crazy but that is how I see it. I am not sure about ssb. How it could work in bog ?

base vegetto was in my mind still below ss2 goku, I would say half of ss2 goku buu saga. so SS Vegetto was only 12,5 times stronger, I think. Goku in bog get to Ultimate gohan level from buu arc so gap closed to be only at the most 5 times weaker I think.

Gotta remember that beforehand, the base Saiyans were below Freeza's original full power. That, and Toriyama's statement only applies to the original SS form's multiplier. I go by the commonly espoused multiplier of SS3 being 400 times one's base power. Working off of that, I have the Ultimate multiplier from an equal base power to be about 20 times stronger than SS3. After that, you have a base form in the current era being anywhere from SS3 Goku's original strength up to Ultimate Gohan's original strength.

(400 x 20 = 8000) -> Thus, a few thousand times stronger than some form of Majin Buu, which is the LOWBALL ESTIMATE for strong low-tier god level is.

[Ki Breaker]

How strong will present ultimate Gohan's kikoho be like?

I'm sure Gohan can't use that technique.

Yeah it's a hypothetical scenario

[Lord Beerus]

How strong will present ultimate Gohan's kikoho be like?

I'm sure Gohan can't use that technique.

Yeah it's a hypothetical scenario

Well, it'll depend on how much life force Gohan has.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm sure Gohan can't use that technique.

Yeah it's a hypothetical scenario

Well, it'll depend on how much life force Gohan has.

You know, that makes me wonder...... Would absorbing a Spirit Bomb into one's body like Goku did in Dragon Ball Z: Super Android 13 increase the power of a technique like the (Shin) Kikoho?

After all, you're absorbing more life-force into your body, so "technically", you should have more to draw on to increase the power of the technique.

Also, I just realized that Tenshinhan's technique could be EXTREMELY valuable if Buu manages to wake up in time for the Tournament of Power and boots You-Know-Who out, since he has healing powers that could recover the Tri-clops's vitality.

[JigSaw910]

It's not like I'm against it aprioristically, but there are plenty of counter-arguments to be considered. Gohan stated also that he was fully powered right before he faced SS2 Goku: are we supposed to believe he showed his full power and then started fighting at 1/1000 of his true strength? Also, why would Goku go SS2 after seeing Gohan's full might already? If Gohan wanted to fight Goku "seriously" couldn't he have cornered him immediately by raising his ki?

As far as I'm concerned the episode did make much more of a point in showing Goku "holding his own" against SS2 Goku, unlike the (barely?) ten seconds in which he managed to punch Goku two times - without us even seeing if the blow sorted some effect or real damage on Goku.

But even admitting that those punches would've made Goku lose ground for one second, people give if anything way too much credit to Toei's coreography: they've given us stuff like base Goku and Vegeta punching Janemba, Tien somehow giving Cell Games Trunks a fight and Super of all things has been the most consistent "offender" of the sacred "characters is over two times stronger = won't bulge even if he's showered with fists". If something looks cool or dramatic enough and they need to put the spotlight on a character they'll do it even without acknowledging or establishing a tremendous (or, technically, proportional) increase in power. The moment we've seen Krillin being able to repel even for one split-second a Kamehameha of SSB Goku should've probably already sealed the deal.

didnt he say this is my current full power? with that being said i find it really shocking some of you guys have a hard time seeing saiyans get stronger a battle rages on. This is knowledge we should all know. Gohan clearly got stronger as the fight went on. As you can tell by his right fist having enhanced aura during the blue fight.

even so the magazine and preview already stated this so this should be old new now

Err... I don't really get the allusion, though: I guess you are suggesting that he started about slightly stronger than his old self and that he reached SSB Goku's level while fighting him? While it would reflect Toei's lopsided writing where everyone can duck it out with everyone, I honestly doubt that it was ever the intention at all. It would also bring forth the usual questions like: and why couldn't he match Beerus? Why couldn't he fight get to Buutenks' level? Yeah, the almighty power of the "plot" wasn't added back then, but are we sure we really want to go there?

Honestly, as far as I can possibly tell, the script might have been "Gohan fights SS2 Goku for five minutes and they are equal, then Gohan puts up a valiant resistance but he is ultimately overwhelmed by SSB Goku using the Kaioken" and whoever got the storyboard down thought the sequence of Goku and Gohan briefly exchanging punches before Gohan got leveled was cool and they just did that. What I'm trying to say is that I feel like no particular emphasis was placed on the fact that Gohan randomly landed a punch on Goku; it was meant to be a very brief transition scene to Gohan's demise at the hands of Kaioken Blue with the intent to make Gohan appear brave because he was put in a David vs. Goliath situation (a.k.a. "Piccolo's sweat and furrowed brow the moment Gohan attacks Goku must mean this guy has no chance") and yet still attacked Goku relentlessly.
More in general, focusing on the smallest tidbits of Super - again, especially with the manga formula - has proven to be only source of nigh-incomprensible writing in my experience. I prefer to rationalize it from a production perspective, so that I'll also know when a character is supposed to be strong and when he's still supposed to be outmatched against a serious opponent and actually putting a fight because of "circumstances", which Super itself tends to add a whole darn lot.

Alas, the moment we'll be told something like "if Gohan fights at full power he could beat Toppo - or someone equally powerful - along with a statement like "Gohan is the third-strongest of the team (because he's stronger than Freeza, ndr.)" we'll know where he stands without second-guessing it. Clearly, I don't know if that will happen or not: I do think Toei wanted to show a Gohan who still was behind far behind his "godly" father and more or less comparable to his regular and improved Super Saiyan forms, but regardless of whatever level of power he's supposed to have I still think they'd do a poor job of keeping it consistent with the old set of rules. He could be "Blue tier" and get punched around for a few seconds by someone who's then beaten by Super Saiyan Vegeta in the battle royal, or he could equal to a Super Saiyan 2 in Super and lay waste for a few seconds to one of the Pride Troopers. Much like Roshi, Jaco and Piccolo had "equal"resistance when they were hit by Tagoma or, well, whatever Super has thrown at the viewers in its battle scenes.

Thats fair. I feel it was poorly written. And yea he was even with ssj2 until goku pushed him past his limits. thus his power escalated, this was shown as he knocks around goku like a ping pong. I dont think the writers would purposely have gohan say this is my full power again when he clashed with blue. The writers suck in Super but they have really small details about what they are trying to portray. This is why the subs being correct and the dubs are really important on this show.

Sidebar: the announcer and magazine preview already stated his strength rivaled goku. I know we are going to go and say "he got one shotted In SSBKK" but that's the strongest form in the show right now. Everybody will be beaten in that mode until the inevitable new forms I believe gohan goku and Vegeta are going to get.

[JigSaw910]

This is contradictory to my see,Or at least Black was wrong.
It became clear that Vegeta got stronger due to his training, including in the NEP Goku says to show the results of his training to Black.

For me it does not make sense to be a Rage Boost, since everything indicated that he really got stronger



It may be that now, his Ultimate form is not able to give such a boost in his power, as it was in the Boo Saga. After all, Goku was much weaker than Gohan in that Saga.

But Goku clearly showed to be able to face Gohan only in the form of SSJ2, which already means enough thing. At most he would be stronger than Goku SSJ3.

The base form of Goku having Gotenks SSJ3 level now got kind of weird. After all, how could Gohan, who barely endured Piccolo in SSJ2, have such an increase in base form?
The only reason would be to consider the state '' Beyond god '' even though it has never been mentioned in the anime.

Did you see Dbz Super Ep91? The announcer already stated gohan rivaled goku in strength. This was further stated when Toei Purposely showed the gohan/goku fight when goku went blue and barely any other parts of that fight. Its confirmd gohan is blue level...rather it be a very weak ssb level he is still in fact ssb power in strength.

So it means that because the announcer says that "The strongest team in universe 7 is assembled" does it mean that Kuririn, Kame and Tenshinhan are specifically stronger than Goten and TrunksS? Of course not, just as "rivaling" does not want Say that Gohan Be able to fight with the stronger form of Goku, may have referred to the SSJ2, which is more logical since he rivaled against Goku SSJ2.

didnt he say this is my current full power? with that being said i find it really shocking some of you guys have a hard time seeing saiyans get stronger a battle rages on. This is knowledge we should all know. Gohan clearly got stronger as the fight went on. As you can tell by his right fist having enhanced aura during the blue fight.

even so the magazine and preview already stated this so this should be old new now

Err... I don't really get the allusion, though: I guess you are suggesting that he started about slightly stronger than his old self and that he reached SSB Goku's level while fighting him? While it would reflect Toei's lopsided writing where everyone can duck it out with everyone, I honestly doubt that it was ever the intention at all. It would also bring forth the usual questions like: and why couldn't he match Beerus? Why couldn't he fight get to Buutenks' level? Yeah, the almighty power of the "plot" wasn't added back then, but are we sure we really want to go there?

Honestly, as far as I can possibly tell, the script might have been "Gohan fights SS2 Goku for five minutes and they are equal, then Gohan puts up a valiant resistance but he is ultimately overwhelmed by SSB Goku using the Kaioken" and whoever got the storyboard down thought the sequence of Goku and Gohan briefly exchanging punches before Gohan got leveled was cool and they just did that. What I'm trying to say is that I feel like no particular emphasis was placed on the fact that Gohan randomly landed a punch on Goku; it was meant to be a very brief transition scene to Gohan's demise at the hands of Kaioken Blue with the intent to make Gohan appear brave because he was put in a David vs. Goliath situation (a.k.a. "Piccolo's sweat and furrowed brow the moment Gohan attacks Goku must mean this guy has no chance") and yet still attacked Goku relentlessly.
More in general, focusing on the smallest tidbits of Super - again, especially with the manga formula - has proven to be only source of nigh-incomprensible writing in my experience. I prefer to rationalize it from a production perspective, so that I'll also know when a character is supposed to be strong and when he's still supposed to be outmatched against a serious opponent and actually putting a fight because of "circumstances", which Super itself tends to add a whole darn lot.

Alas, the moment we'll be told something like "if Gohan fights at full power he could beat Toppo - or someone equally powerful - along with a statement like "Gohan is the third-strongest of the team (because he's stronger than Freeza, ndr.)" we'll know where he stands without second-guessing it. Clearly, I don't know if that will happen or not: I do think Toei wanted to show a Gohan who still was behind far behind his "godly" father and more or less comparable to his regular and improved Super Saiyan forms, but regardless of whatever level of power he's supposed to have I still think they'd do a poor job of keeping it consistent with the old set of rules. He could be "Blue tier" and get punched around for a few seconds by someone who's then beaten by Super Saiyan Vegeta in the battle royal, or he could equal to a Super Saiyan 2 in Super and lay waste for a few seconds to one of the Pride Troopers. Much like Roshi, Jaco and Piccolo had "equal"resistance when they were hit by Tagoma or, well, whatever Super has thrown at the viewers in its battle scenes.

I agree. You can not put Gohan level Goku SSB, with 5 seconds of fighting, just because he hit a few punches (it is common in DBS someone weaker do this) .It's hard to imagine that he was being pressured by Goku SSJ2, Uses only 0.0000000001 of his strength, which was then able to rival Goku SSB. There is nothing to show that he is at that level

Gohan has the highest ki potential in the show as well as being a "prodigy". it makes sense on his strength boost. If that's the case we don't know how strong 17 is either because of Goku's SSB Plot armor scaling.

Yes the STRONGEST individuals of U7 assembled. Those guys are the strongest Earth has to offer so that headline does make sense. It makes no sense to have goku and vegeta the only ppl on a level higher than SSJ3 when they will be fighting universes who are miles stronger than them.

As I stated everything they do and say are for a reason. Goku pushed gohan posted his initial limit, Which is why he started to destroy SSJ2 Goku. Goku decided to go ssb because SSj2 wasn't working anymore. Furthermore, with gohan winning the exchange in blue he decided his strength grew well enough to fight SSBKK which one shotted him. Goku always gets stronger as his fights progress. I don't see this being an initial big deal.

In fact, Gohan Power scaling makes the most sense from all the other filler in my opinion. Even if some doesn't feel he is a tier of SSG strength, he will be once he achieves Super Saiyan God White in the tournament. That's what I'm dubbing his next transformation will be called.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Did you see Dbz Super Ep91? The announcer already stated gohan rivaled goku in strength. This was further stated when Toei Purposely showed the gohan/goku fight when goku went blue and barely any other parts of that fight. Its confirmd gohan is blue level...rather it be a very weak ssb level he is still in fact ssb power in strength.

So it means that because the announcer says that "The strongest team in universe 7 is assembled" does it mean that Kuririn, Kame and Tenshinhan are specifically stronger than Goten and TrunksS? Of course not, just as "rivaling" does not want Say that Gohan Be able to fight with the stronger form of Goku, may have referred to the SSJ2, which is more logical since he rivaled against Goku SSJ2.

Err... I don't really get the allusion, though: I guess you are suggesting that he started about slightly stronger than his old self and that he reached SSB Goku's level while fighting him? While it would reflect Toei's lopsided writing where everyone can duck it out with everyone, I honestly doubt that it was ever the intention at all. It would also bring forth the usual questions like: and why couldn't he match Beerus? Why couldn't he fight get to Buutenks' level? Yeah, the almighty power of the "plot" wasn't added back then, but are we sure we really want to go there?

Honestly, as far as I can possibly tell, the script might have been "Gohan fights SS2 Goku for five minutes and they are equal, then Gohan puts up a valiant resistance but he is ultimately overwhelmed by SSB Goku using the Kaioken" and whoever got the storyboard down thought the sequence of Goku and Gohan briefly exchanging punches before Gohan got leveled was cool and they just did that. What I'm trying to say is that I feel like no particular emphasis was placed on the fact that Gohan randomly landed a punch on Goku; it was meant to be a very brief transition scene to Gohan's demise at the hands of Kaioken Blue with the intent to make Gohan appear brave because he was put in a David vs. Goliath situation (a.k.a. "Piccolo's sweat and furrowed brow the moment Gohan attacks Goku must mean this guy has no chance") and yet still attacked Goku relentlessly.
More in general, focusing on the smallest tidbits of Super - again, especially with the manga formula - has proven to be only source of nigh-incomprensible writing in my experience. I prefer to rationalize it from a production perspective, so that I'll also know when a character is supposed to be strong and when he's still supposed to be outmatched against a serious opponent and actually putting a fight because of "circumstances", which Super itself tends to add a whole darn lot.

Alas, the moment we'll be told something like "if Gohan fights at full power he could beat Toppo - or someone equally powerful - along with a statement like "Gohan is the third-strongest of the team (because he's stronger than Freeza, ndr.)" we'll know where he stands without second-guessing it. Clearly, I don't know if that will happen or not: I do think Toei wanted to show a Gohan who still was behind far behind his "godly" father and more or less comparable to his regular and improved Super Saiyan forms, but regardless of whatever level of power he's supposed to have I still think they'd do a poor job of keeping it consistent with the old set of rules. He could be "Blue tier" and get punched around for a few seconds by someone who's then beaten by Super Saiyan Vegeta in the battle royal, or he could equal to a Super Saiyan 2 in Super and lay waste for a few seconds to one of the Pride Troopers. Much like Roshi, Jaco and Piccolo had "equal"resistance when they were hit by Tagoma or, well, whatever Super has thrown at the viewers in its battle scenes.

I agree. You can not put Gohan level Goku SSB, with 5 seconds of fighting, just because he hit a few punches (it is common in DBS someone weaker do this) .It's hard to imagine that he was being pressured by Goku SSJ2, Uses only 0.0000000001 of his strength, which was then able to rival Goku SSB. There is nothing to show that he is at that level

Gohan has the highest ki potential in the show as well as being a "prodigy". it makes sense on his strength boost. If that's the case we don't know how strong 17 is either because of Goku's SSB Plot armor scaling.

Yes the STRONGEST individuals of U7 assembled. Those guys are the strongest Earth has to offer so that headline does make sense. It makes no sense to have goku and vegeta the only ppl on a level higher than SSJ3 when they will be fighting universes who are miles stronger than them.

As I stated everything they do and say are for a reason. Goku pushed gohan posted his initial limit, Which is why he started to destroy SSJ2 Goku. Goku decided to go ssb because SSj2 wasn't working anymore. Furthermore, with gohan winning the exchange in blue he decided his strength grew well enough to fight SSBKK which one shotted him. Goku always gets stronger as his fights progress. I don't see this being an initial big deal.

In fact, Gohan Power scaling makes the most sense from all the other filler in my opinion. Even if some doesn't feel he is a tier of SSG strength, he will be once he achieves Super Saiyan God White in the tournament. That's what I'm dubbing his next transformation will be called.

It's CLEAR in the episode. Gohan who asked his father to use SSB
I do not know the difficulty in understanding this, it is not shown at any point Goku transforming by being pressed. He only uses SSB after Gohan asks.

When Gohan starts to '' destroy '' Goku SSJ2? They were clearly at similar levels, in the final fight scene between the two, Gohan just throws Goku up, which means nothing. Before that they were evened.
Gohan said he was using all his power against Goku SSJ2, and was pressured during the fight. There is nothing to indicate that he is Goku SSB level since Goku only used this transformation because of Gohan's request

To have the greatest potential does not make any increase in his power justifiable.

It was not even a 24-hour workout. But you can tell, Gohan fans take it all in as they assess Trunks's power boost, which was also forced.

[ssbgoku]

I think a lot of the debate of where to place the current Ultimate Gohan on his father's power scale depends on how you perceive the differences between forms and the usage of suppression.

For me personally, at least, I can buy Ultimate Gohan being on his way to reaching the level of gods if one were to assume his base form was in the same ballpark as that of Goku's singular very-strong-but-not-god-level base form, as well as assume that the Ultimate boost is the same as it was when he first gained this power-up, when his base form was beneath Final Form Freeza's original full power.

Basically, think of it like reaching ballpark-Majin-Buu-level power in base form, then multiplying one's power with the Ultimate state from that ballpark-Majin-Buu-level base power. It'd also create a nice estimate for how strong the god-forms and equivalent opponents are, at a few dozen times stronger than the next strongest transformation Goku has, SS3 multiplying a ballpark-Majin-Buu-level, which would make the lowest of god-level opponents a few thousand times stronger than some form of Majin Buu.

Again, this is just my personal interpretation of how this works as of the latest episode.

I was ready to agree with you on this until I read bold part. Sorry but even Toryiama himself said that he didn't want ssj to be more then 10 multiplier in one of interview, then there were some rumors that only in namek saga ssj was 50 x boost, but it was proved false as far as I know. However his words about having none transfarmation above 50 or close seems to be still correct.

That why (either there was retcoon on this gap when movie was decided to be serialized as anime so it can last longer) and I see ssg only as x10 ss3. Yeah I know it sounds crazy but that is how I see it. I am not sure about ssb. How it could work in bog ?

base vegetto was in my mind still below ss2 goku, I would say half of ss2 goku buu saga. so SS Vegetto was only 12,5 times stronger, I think. Goku in bog get to Ultimate gohan level from buu arc so gap closed to be only at the most 5 times weaker I think.

Gotta remember that beforehand, the base Saiyans were below Freeza's original full power. That, and Toriyama's statement only applies to the original SS form's multiplier. I go by the commonly espoused multiplier of SS3 being 400 times one's base power. Working off of that, I have the Ultimate multiplier from an equal base power to be about 20 times stronger than SS3. After that, you have a base form in the current era being anywhere from SS3 Goku's original strength up to Ultimate Gohan's original strength.

(400 x 20 = 8000) -> Thus, a few thousand times stronger than some form of Majin Buu, which is the LOWBALL ESTIMATE for strong low-tier god level is.

Yeah I know ;p. Somehow due to they tryint to dimnish and close power gaps between characters and even respective forms I see ssg being only 10 x ssj3, which as small as it seems shows big difference.

Unless it was combined ki of post rage ss2 vegeta, ultimate gohan, ss kid Trunks, ss kid gotenks and ss pan throught videl making goku temporary stronger. also possible Zenkai could help so normal 10 x ssj3 boost changed into 20 x ssj3 pre god boost which would make him 2 times stronger then before after beating from beerus on planet Kai.

For me currently ssg would look like 10*4*2*50=4000 x boost over base goku form. However due to post beating beerus base goku being two times stronger it would look like 20 times boost which could make him 8000 x boost over pre beerus beating base goku form.

SS Vegetoo would be 15 times stronger then buu saga ss3 goku assuming goku got 2 times more powerfull in bog, so vegeta and everyone else. Goku would even got 6 times stronger as he was stronger or on par with ultimate gohan from buu saga.

initial ssg goku ~ ss2 vegetto buu arc, Bog arc could be little higher. However I don't see ssg goku being above hypothetical ss3 vegetto from buu arc, not even mentioning bog arc . However before it looked like that and most likely was planned.

[Bullza]

Got bored so I went through the manga and ranked all the notable characters from strongest to weakest which aside from two characters which I'll point was pretty easy to do especially when compared to the anime.

Zeno
Grand Priest
Vados
Whis
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Champa

Merged Zamasu
Complete Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Super Saiyan Rose Black
Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku - Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan God Goku

Super Saiyan Black
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks

Black
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Dabura

Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku - Super Saiyan Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Frost Final Form
Piccolo

Trunks
Goku - Vegeta
Cabba
Frost Third Form
Frost First Form
Botamo
Krillin

Perhaps Super Saiyan Black could be a few places higher depending on how you see it. Then there's Zamasu who could be lower, in terms of raw power he's possibly around Frost or Magetta maybe? With his abilities though he'd seem to be higher but still below Trunks.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Got bored so I went through the manga and ranked all the notable characters from strongest to weakest which aside from two characters which I'll point was pretty easy to do especially when compared to the anime.

Zeno
Grand Priest
Vados
Whis
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Champa

Merged Zamasu
Complete Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Super Saiyan Rose Black
Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku - Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan God Goku

Super Saiyan Black
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks

Black
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Dabura

Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku - Super Saiyan Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Frost Final Form
Piccolo

Trunks
Goku - Vegeta
Cabba
Frost Third Form
Frost First Form
Botamo
Krillin

Perhaps Super Saiyan Black could be a few places higher depending on how you see it. Then there's Zamasu who could be lower, in terms of raw power he's possibly around Frost or Magetta maybe? With his abilities though he'd seem to be higher but still below Trunks.

Just disagreeing on a few points (I know it's your opinion)

Black Super Saiyajin should be above Goku SSG, Hitto and Goku / Vegeta SSB (first fight in the future).

Vegeta SSB (after training on RoSaT) would be stronger than Black.
He used an efficient strategy to save energy, but he only in the form of SSG he was able to swap punches with Black and defend his punches, being able to keep the fight in that way, activating SSB just for a few seconds.

He would not even be able to deal damage to Black if he was the same level as before (which was inferior to Black SSJ)>

Vegeta said that Trunks SSJ2 had a level close to that of Goku SSJ3, but did not even match nor surpass

I think I would put Magetta in front of Kyabe. Végeta won because he destroyed the arena almost completely, but his punches were not effective. Kyabe would have to have a very powerful technique to be able to win

[avasatu]

As I stated everything they do and say are for a reason. Goku pushed gohan posted his initial limit, Which is why he started to destroy SSJ2 Goku. Goku decided to go ssb because SSj2 wasn't working anymore. Furthermore, with gohan winning the exchange in blue he decided his strength grew well enough to fight SSBKK which one shotted him. Goku always gets stronger as his fights progress. I don't see this being an initial big deal.

This is a huge deal. You say SS2 Goku pushed Gohan beyond his limits, which we can all buy, but then decides to transform into the Universal destruction level SSB in response? God level power is the next natural progression for Goku in the fight? If you argue that Goku is heavily suppressed, that's acceptable, but instead you suggest Goku feels the need to double his power with KK? This is only something Goku would do out of necessity if his opponent was giving him trouble at max power SSB. So effectively, at least the way I see it, you are suggesting Gohan is able to put up a fight against full power SSB Goku, which makes absolutely no sense at all. I'm not meaning to bash you; if the show is causing this kind of perception among veteran viewers, something is wrong with the show.

What's more likely is that Goku went SSB and heavily suppressed himself to slightly above Gohan's level, which was noticeably above SS2 Goku once Gohan broke his limits. It's then heavily implied that Goku then went KK simply upon request, whether or not he first went max power as SSB. There's no way Gohan going "past his limit" takes him from SS2 Goku level to a large percentage of max SSB Goku.

All this confusion stems simply from us not knowing the relationship between SS3 and SSB. I think this needs to be worked out by a sizable group of good power scalers, and then averaged so we can form a consensus. Either the godly forms aren't capable of destroying universes, SSB isn't as powerful as Beerus arc SSG, or the golden haired forms are much more powerful than we give them credit for.

[Cabba]

It makes absolutely no sense for Gohan to say again "Here's my full power" if he was fighting SSJ2 Goku at max.
He's SSB tier. People need to get over it already.

Except he said here is my full power when he fought against SS2
With the info we have we cant make a definitive assessment either way

As has already been pointed out, we have examples of weaker characters taking punches and punching SSB or similar tier characters
There is also the possibility Goku wasn't going all out as SSB, just like when he fought Krillin which is why Gohan kept telling him to get serious, at this point Goku used Kaioken out of respect and to show him he is serious which is why Gohan smiled when Goku used Kaioken

Did you see Dbz Super Ep91? The announcer already stated gohan rivaled goku in strength. This was further stated when Toei Purposely showed the gohan/goku fight when goku went blue and barely any other parts of that fight. Its confirmd gohan is blue level...rather it be a very weak ssb level he is still in fact ssb power in strength.

Thats precisely what discredits the narration as broad/general statement, taking at face value it implies Gohan power rivals Gokus which it does not. Rivals in this context could mean he fought equally with him during the episode

I'm sure that was stated for a reason....no matter what some of you guys feeel about the fight. this is clear indiciation of gohans power level.
idk how useful cabba can be when he just learned super saiyan. I really want to find out where toei is going with that.

Yeah, i fear Cabba did not improve not one bit, hope to be proven wrong though
About the statment, its a broad statement thats all I'm saying. Cant be taken at face value because if you do it implies Gohan rivals SSB Kaioken
If the narrator meant to say Gohans power rivaled SSB, it would have said so. Instead it went for a far more general statement that doesn't actually hold the narrator accountable for anything. Its just a way to build hype, even more so with lines such as "the strong Gohan is back". Its a clear shout out to the fans. Its also a broad statement which cant be used as definitive proof of anything

didnt he say this is my current full power? with that being said i find it really shocking some of you guys have a hard time seeing saiyans get stronger a battle rages on. This is knowledge we should all know. Gohan clearly got stronger as the fight went on. As you can tell by his right fist having enhanced aura during the blue fight.
even so the magazine and preview already stated this so this should be old new now

Fist had enhanced aura waaay before the SSB fight, in fact he used this attack against base goku
He also kept calling out for Goku to get serious, if anything he wanted to experience first hand a fight against someone of Gokus caliber when 100% serious, which is why he kept telling him to get serious even while blue

Promotional material is worthless fan service to build up hype. Gohan being back to his strong self is all the rage now, make sense to hype it up with the potential trope. They seem to be bringing back old tropes
Or Vegeta saying he will surpass Kakarot and win the tournament, this is an obvious DBZ style throwback moment

Got bored so I went through the manga and ranked all the notable characters from strongest to weakest which aside from two characters which I'll point was pretty easy to do especially when compared to the anime.
Merged Zamasu
Complete Super Saiyan Blue Goku

I'm curious why are you putting merged Zamasu above Complete SSB Goku
Because he is immortal or because of the strain Complete SSB puts on Gokus body?