Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

The Dragon Ball Super movie exists and has seen its debut public screening.

We haven't seen it though, good for the couple dozen who got to see it but most the world won't until it comes out in January which is a couple months away. When Infinity War premiered it wasn't an excuse for everyone to suddenly blurt out that everyone turns to dust at the end before people got to see it because that's a dick thing to do to people.

Again, be at least somewhat thoughtful about what you're discussing and where. I think this approaches reasonable.

You can't be serious...what exactly do you think I'm doing? I'm trying to avoid other people that I don't even know from having the movie completely spoiled for them like it was for me. Considering the sheer popularity of this thread, how many people stumble across it from Google? People that may be watching the dub as it airs on TV or are just catching up on it general who are gonna end up seeing huge plot points from the movie dropped out of the blue?

The people that need to be thoughtful are the ones telling everyone how the movie is gonna end and being too lazy and selfish to spend a couple seconds to use the extremely easy to use spoiler tag feature to cover it up.

[Mister_Popo]

Honestly how many times this guy should have been "surpassed" ... I wouldn't be surprised "he is much stronger than everybody thought at the end" becomes a long-running gag.
Any declaration concerning the exact powerlevel of Beerus i'll take with a gramme of salt, untill we see him in action again.

Beerus' constant change in power is hilarious at this point.

Beerus is Goku's benchmark. The story has them set up for a prophetic showdown by the oracle fish.

Beerus won't be surpassed until the end.

It would somehow make sense the final battle of Super would be Goku versus Beerus second round.
Another series starting from EoZ / Uub with or without timekip could go on from there.

[Lord Beerus]

I've just read the synopsis on Naruto forums, where does it state that MUI Goku is beneath Beerus?

Nowhere.

But since Broly might be stronger than Beerus, and is already beyond Jiren (same league as Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku), then that would put Beerus above them. Beerus' level still sounds like the standard in Goku's eyes.

But the funny thing is that Goku has never fought Beerus at full power. The best we've seen from Beerus in Super is using 10% of power to tank SSJ2 Raging Vegeta's assault in the Battle Of Gods arc. A statement that ended up being retconned in later arcs. So how strong Beerus really is a, at least in the Super continuity, is a complete mystery.

[AvatarReiko]

I really don't know what to say here. We don't have a strict spoiler policy. We're an "anything and everything" website with timely coverage of the productions, and the community follows suit.

Unbelievable...I found this post of yours where you said this "Feel free to drop some conversation about NEPs in the respective episode discussion thread, and try to keep upcoming spoiler talk to its respective, dedicated thread."

So why does this somehow not apply now even when we have a dedicated thread for the movie just the same?

If we don't have a spoiler policy then what's the point in having a spoiler tag that's purpose is to cover up spoilers? What's to stop someone from making a thread titled "Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta wrecks Broly in the Dragon Ball Super Broly" then? I can see a thread called "(SPOILERS INSIDE) Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?" so obviously it had to be noted there.

These are spoilers for the movie...we have a movie thread. Why do we have to have spoilers in other threads?

Did it not occur to you that perhaps some people would be openly talking about plot details in a Dragon Ball Super movie? Plot details that have already been spread across the internet?

You could have easily avoided the Dragon Ball Super sub forum entirely. Yes, some people could have used the spoiler tag, but they're not at liberty to do so. Nobody is being selfish. It's up you to make the right decisions to prevent being spoiled about certain events in the movie, just as much as it's up to other people on the forum to decide whether they want to openly state the crucial plot details of a recently released Dragon Ball movie or keep them somewhat hidden. And not everyone on this forum, or in social media in general, will be as impartial as you would want.

It's not up to me that people such as yourself are spoiling the movie openly. You should know better than to talk about heavy spoilers for a movie that people won't see until January and not even have the decency to cover them up. Who the hell does something like that? I shouldn't have to avoid the sub forum. The spoilers are related to the movie so I stayed out of the movie thread. Now you've got to spread the spoilers around to other threads as well?

You are going into a separate thread from the movie thread, giving away heavy movie ruining spoilers and choosing not to use the spoiler tag even though you know full well that it exists for that sole purpose. That is very selfish.

Cry me a river. You're a grown man/woman. Take responsibility for your own actions and stop relying on other people. If you want to avoid spoilers, stay away from the these types of threads(If I can do that, why can't you?). Do not expect people to wipe your arse

[Bullza]

You're a grown man/woman. Take responsibility for your own actions and stop relying on other people.

If you're also a grown man or a woman then why is it so difficult for you to use something as simple as a spoiler tag when giving a spoiler? You can see it just fine can't you? It says "spoiler" right there at the top and it's used for when giving spoilers. That is its sole function of being there.

Why I should have to take responsibility for you being incapable of doing something that should be common sense to anyone?

If you want to avoid spoilers, stay away from the these types of threads

Is this or is this not the dedicated Dragon Ball Super Broly movie thread?

If a person were to come out of seeing Creed 2 and walked past a line of people queuing to see it and loudly talked about who won the fight at the end then would you blame the people for being in the theatre for being there or the obnoxious loud mouthed fool?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

With current power levels and new transformations, I don't think this dialogue can be used now.

We saw that the power up that the SSG offends Goku is monstrous, he did not even want use Vegetto fusion to defeat Beerus (knowing it would not be enough), but the SSG was able to face him.
SSB is much more powerful than SSG, and Goku can basically multiply that power by 20x, while Vegeta does the same with his new transformation.

I believe it is debatable whether Gogeta SSB is superior to Goku KK x20 and Vegeta SSBE despite believing they can make Gogeta much stronger just because of all the hype and fanservice of the movie

Goku couldn't turn into a SSJ God at the time he made his statement, so i don't see what's the problem here. If he were to fuse right after achieving SSJ God, the product (Gogeta) would be much stronger than a fusion before the ritual was made.

[MajinVegetaPD]

Honestly how many times this guy should have been "surpassed" ... I wouldn't be surprised "he is much stronger than everybody thought at the end" becomes a long-running gag.
Any declaration concerning the exact powerlevel of Beerus i'll take with a gramme of salt, untill we see him in action again.

Beerus' constant change in power is hilarious at this point.

Beerus is Goku's benchmark. The story has them set up for a prophetic showdown by the oracle fish.

Beerus won't be surpassed until the end.

I honestly think it's better if Beerus is never surpassed. I like the fact that Goku and Vegeta still have to be scared shitless of Beerus.

[RecolorSaiyan]

BoG goku who only had ss3 and only knew vegeta had a normal ssj2 , didn't think their fusion could beat beerus and wanted ssg cause
A.) Thats what beerus wanted
B.) If the dude himself is hyping this power up then maybe its gotta chance

In the end, ssg was nothing to beerus

Now. Fast forward multiple arcs when goku and vegeta have ssb and their full power are WAY above BoG level , its not crazy to think their base fusion could be above their god forms. It was never stated fusion combined base power and then multiplied it. Thats a fan assumption.

base vegito (z) > ss3 goku
base kefla (super) > ssj2 kale + ssj2 caulifla
base vegito (manga) > ssg / drained ssb goku and vegeta

[Miracles]

Honestly how many times this guy should have been "surpassed" ... I wouldn't be surprised "he is much stronger than everybody thought at the end" becomes a long-running gag.
Any declaration concerning the exact powerlevel of Beerus i'll take with a gramme of salt, untill we see him in action again.

Beerus' constant change in power is hilarious at this point.

Beerus is Goku's benchmark. The story has them set up for a prophetic showdown by the oracle fish.

Beerus won't be surpassed until the end.

I honestly think it's better if Beerus is never surpassed. I like the fact that Goku and Vegeta still have to be scared shitless of Beerus.

From former Toriyama interviews, looks like that's the way he is going to have it for the meantime.

[shadd21]

Beerus wanking is the only proper wanking.

[RandomGuy96]

Where are people getting the idea that Broly is stronger than Jiren at all? From the brief description on the Naruto Forums, they're never compared to each other.

[PFM18]

Where are people getting the idea that Broly is stronger than Jiren at all? From the brief description on the Naruto Forums, they're never compared to each other.

Promotional material said that he is the strongest they have ever fought and I'm mildly certain that they said that Broly had the highest ki they had ever felt but I'm not positive. I want to say I heard that somewhere.

They fought Jiren at their best but not Beerus at Full-power is the idea.

[RandomGuy96]

Where are people getting the idea that Broly is stronger than Jiren at all? From the brief description on the Naruto Forums, they're never compared to each other.

Promotional material said that he is the strongest they have ever fought

So nothing then, considering he's weaker than Whis, who they fought. Just the standard marketing hype.

Anyway if we're citing magazines then UI Omen Goku is stronger than Beerus. If that's true (and it would fit nicely with Whis in the anime noting that Jiren had surpassed "the level of the Gods of Destruction" when he powered up against Goku), then:

MUI Goku [Toei rage boost] > Full Power Jiren > MUI Goku > Base Jiren ~ UIO Goku > Beerus

[Miracles]

^That article statement never made it in the canon. It still is a suspect statement that Herms even said "proves nothing."
To tell you the truth, I highly doubt the "Broly might be stronger than Beerus" comment is in the movie too [I even doubt the people's review of the whole movie].
Even if it is, still doesn't prove anything. I don't know why the fandom loves to use non factual statements as truth.

[ssj3kakarot]

Base fusion shouldn't be stronger than SSB, period. If SSJ3 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta BoG = Vegito, and that Vegito at max power is far weaker, by a huge amount, than SSG Goku, then Base Gogeta should likewise be weaker than SSB Goku. Gogeta should only get the edge, and and overwhelming edge might I add, when he obtains SSG or Blue as well.

I think dialog is needed to otherwise contradict this logic previously layed out by the anime. If God form was needed to face Beerus originally, then God form should still be needed to challenge another high tier fighter unless a line is implemented.

Now one could argue that Goku and Vegeta have God-ki type energy in their base, I dunno.

I understand from a promotional and story-telling point it would be terrible to have the birth of Gogeta appear and his base, ss1 and ss2 be absolute poop compared to any current villain. I just don't think it follows the lore very well of the show. My own thoughts, really. Anyone agree, disagree, etc?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Base fusion shouldn't be stronger than SSB, period. If SSJ3 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta BoG = Vegito, and that Vegito at max power is far weaker, by a huge amount, than SSG Goku, then Base Gogeta should likewise be weaker than SSB Goku. Gogeta should only get the edge, and and overwhelming edge might I add, when he obtains SSG or Blue as well.

I think dialog is needed to otherwise contradict this logic previously layed out by the anime. If God form was needed to face Beerus originally, then God form should still be needed to challenge another high tier fighter unless a line is implemented.

Now one could argue that Goku and Vegeta have God-ki type energy in their base, I dunno.

I understand from a promotional and story-telling point it would be terrible to have the birth of Gogeta appear and his base, ss1 and ss2 be absolute poop compared to any current villain. I just don't think it follows the lore very well of the show. My own thoughts, really. Anyone agree, disagree, etc?

Maybe fusion simply surpasses whatever the fusees' max is. So BoG Vegetto would only be >SSJ3 tier because that's what Goku had, but current Gogeta would be >SSB tier because that's what they have now.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Base fusion shouldn't be stronger than SSB, period. If SSJ3 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta BoG = Vegito, and that Vegito at max power is far weaker, by a huge amount, than SSG Goku, then Base Gogeta should likewise be weaker than SSB Goku. Gogeta should only get the edge, and and overwhelming edge might I add, when he obtains SSG or Blue as well.

I think dialog is needed to otherwise contradict this logic previously layed out by the anime. If God form was needed to face Beerus originally, then God form should still be needed to challenge another high tier fighter unless a line is implemented.

Now one could argue that Goku and Vegeta have God-ki type energy in their base, I dunno.

I understand from a promotional and story-telling point it would be terrible to have the birth of Gogeta appear and his base, ss1 and ss2 be absolute poop compared to any current villain. I just don't think it follows the lore very well of the show. My own thoughts, really. Anyone agree, disagree, etc?

Maybe fusion simply surpasses whatever the fusees' max is. So BoG Vegetto would only be >SSJ3 tier because that's what Goku had, but current Gogeta would be >SSB tier because that's what they have now.

This is how I see it.

[ssj3kakarot]

Base fusion shouldn't be stronger than SSB, period. If SSJ3 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta BoG = Vegito, and that Vegito at max power is far weaker, by a huge amount, than SSG Goku, then Base Gogeta should likewise be weaker than SSB Goku. Gogeta should only get the edge, and and overwhelming edge might I add, when he obtains SSG or Blue as well.

I think dialog is needed to otherwise contradict this logic previously layed out by the anime. If God form was needed to face Beerus originally, then God form should still be needed to challenge another high tier fighter unless a line is implemented.

Now one could argue that Goku and Vegeta have God-ki type energy in their base, I dunno.

I understand from a promotional and story-telling point it would be terrible to have the birth of Gogeta appear and his base, ss1 and ss2 be absolute poop compared to any current villain. I just don't think it follows the lore very well of the show. My own thoughts, really. Anyone agree, disagree, etc?

Maybe fusion simply surpasses whatever the fusees' max is. So BoG Vegetto would only be >SSJ3 tier because that's what Goku had, but current Gogeta would be >SSB tier because that's what they have now.

This is how I see it.

That's not a bad way to look at it. It's easy enough to connect the dots. Wish something in the show would clarify, though I don't think they care about such simple ideas.

But Goku's max is technically Ultra Instinct. Mabye you could argue that he can't obtain it at will so neither could his fused self.

About fusions: What is everyones thought about the mutipliers and transformations like SS? Do you think the fused warriors transformation yields the same multiplier as a single person? Goku gets X50 in SS, would Gogetta also get X50 stronger? That's insane when you think about it.

[Son-Kakaroto]

Maybe fusion simply surpasses whatever the fusees' max is. So BoG Vegetto would only be >SSJ3 tier because that's what Goku had, but current Gogeta would be >SSB tier because that's what they have now.

This is how I see it.

That's not a bad way to look at it. It's easy enough to connect the dots. Wish something in the show would clarify, though I don't think they care about such simple ideas.

But Goku's max is technically Ultra Instinct. Mabye you could argue that he can't obtain it at will so neither could his fused self.

About fusions: What is everyones thought about the mutipliers and transformations like SS? Do you think the fused warriors transformation yields the same multiplier as a single person? Goku gets X50 in SS, would Gogetta also get X50 stronger? That's insane when you think about it.

It just seems like a power scaling inconsistency, honestly.

[RandomGuy96]

I feel vindicated in my theory that SSG just isn't very strong in new material, especially since the manga version entirely excluded most of the hype it got (e.g. no "fusion wouldn't work against Beerus" line). Even ignoring anime-only sequences as typical Toei nonsense, we have:

-SS1 Goku outperforming "less than 10%" SSB Vegeta against Hit in the manga (knowing about the time skip ahead of time only explains so much).

-Base Vegetto injuring an on-guard Fused Zamasu in the manga (which fits well with the anime-only base Kefla being stronger than SSG Goku).

-Gohan getting to nearly SSG level despite explicitly only regaining the power he lost from the Buu arc in both the manga and anime.

-SS Gogeta apparently being stronger by far than SSB Goku in the new movie.

If not for the events of BoG and ROF, which may very well have been retconned (at least some of it definitely was, like Beerus using 70% against SSG Goku in the movie and 10% against SS2 Vegeta in the anime or Beerus being threatened by SSB Goku and Vegeta working together), I don't think anyone would rate SSG as very strong.