Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Simere]

Since many people want to dismiss the effectiveness of SSJ3 as a form, I thought it was noteworthy that Goku posed it as a goal worth reaching this episode.

"Holding back" Yeah, Goku's been holding back in every single fight he's ever been In. That's the excuse everyone uses when an opponent overpowers him lol.

Goku has held back in almost every single fight he's ever been in, yes. You're really going to try to deny this?

[Zeno's button]

............

[Zeno's button]

You're kind of over-analyzing the nuances; saying that Goku was holding back can't be a justification for everything, bro. It was clear with Krillin he was holding back because he asked Krillin what he would do against SSBlue-level power. He wanted to gauge Krillin's confidence. Against #17 as an SSBlue, Goku states he was holding back. These two instances demonstrate he was not at full-power.

When Goku fought Ultimate Gohan right before the ToP, he went all out because SS2 could not cut it (and Gohan asked). When he fought Toppo, Super Saiyan could not cut it, so he used SSBlue.

He drove a point blank SSB Kamehameha to Toppo who became scratched up. SSBerserker Kale was strong enough to beat the shit out of SS2 Goku. She literally threw him like Hulk in the first Avengers movie. Goku transformed into SSBlue BECAUSE he needed to and BECAUSE she could take the power. She tanked a point blank SSB Kamehameha better than Toppo. These small things were to point us towards the fact that she was that strong.

Goku has held back in almost every single fight he's ever been in, yes. You're really going to try to deny this?

Hell, he held back in his fight with Majin Vegeta as SS2, he held back against fat Boo when he could have defeated him as SS3, he held back as SSBlue against virtually everyone (Krillin, 18, 17, Gohan, Bergamo) and now we're supposed to believe Kale is stronger than SSB? I mean, Goku actually SAYS "I'm going to power up A LITTLE" when he's SS2 and Kale wasn't even able to hurt him THEN. He doesn't even get his clothes damaged after being repeatedly hit by Kale.

It's easy: Kale might be slightly stronger than SS2, but Goku prefers going Blue than SS3 to fight people above SS2 level because SS3 has always been said to be very ineffective: in the Majin Boo arc Goku says it drains stamina fast (it even shortens his time on Earth), in the first arc of Super Beerus says it's trash.

What do people need to believe Goku was holding back when all evidence points this way, a written statement by Toriyama?

[TheSaiyanGod]

Watched the episode subbed now.

Base Cabba beat down Nigrisshi with no effort whatsoever. I'm sure they said he was the strongest from Universe 3, doesn't say much for that Universe.

Goku just said he was gonna let out more power, not a little more power when he went Blue.

Kale must be pretty damn powerful if just shouting was able to destroy some of that Kachi Katchin metal.

In fact, Goku speaks "choto" which means "a little". But I think the Crunchyroll translation did not see this

Woulda been "dondon reki ireteikuzo/motto reki ireteikuzo" right trans is "I'm gonna put in a little more ki /power now"

Wait, so what did Goku say exactly?

Does he really say '' choto reki ireteikuzo ''? And does that even mean '' using a little more power ''?

It seemed like this

[SansrivaaL]

In fact, Goku speaks "choto" which means "a little". But I think the Crunchyroll translation did not see this

Woulda been "dondon reki ireteikuzo/motto reki ireteikuzo" right trans is "I'm gonna put in a little more ki /power now"

Wait, so what did Goku say exactly?

Does he really say '' choto reki ireteikuzo ''? And does that even mean '' using a little more power ''?

It seemed like this

Yeah what you said was right, I meant if he was talking about "I'll release more power now" then he woulda said "dondon reki ireteikuzo/motto reki ireteikuzo"

[avasatu]

The way I see it, Majin Buu is still a major power milestone throughout the Universes. With most of the base Saiyans being at such a level (in my personal opinion, anyways), it keeps his rampage special and gauges most fighters below his paygrade.

The base Saiyans are above Buu arc Ultimate Gohan. SS1 Gohan 2 shots Tagoma, who is Ultimate Gohan Buu arc level, and then base Vegeta easily one shots Ginyu Tagoma.

No this has been debunked by, I think, Herms? Gohan saying Tagoma was as strong as him at his best meant in Japanese, like "on a goody day" not the "best I've ever been" He was comparing Tagoma to his current max not his lifetime max.

Otherwise he couldn't have taken down an ultimate tier enemy in SSJ1, even if you think SSJ1 allowed him to access most of him ult power, he woulnd't be one shotting someone equal to that. And SSJ1 Gotenks wouldn't have done any damage either.

That doesn't make much sense. His best on a good day, yet Gohan 2 shots him as an SS1? What's more likely is that Gohan is stronger than he's ever been, but not at his best, meaning without access to all his transformations and his warrior mentality/fighting spirit. We know Gohan's potential grows and grows, and his Ultimate form fills in his potential up to its current highest point.

Even if I'm wrong, you can't have the base Saiyans at Fat or Kid Buu if SS3 Gotenks is near Super Buu and they can effortlessly tank full power kicks from SS3 Gotenks. The base Saiyans are definitely above Buu arc Ultimate Gohan level.

[Marlowe89]

That doesn't make much sense. His best on a good day, yet Gohan 2 shots him as an SS1? What's more likely is that Gohan is stronger than he's ever been, but not at his best, meaning without access to all his transformations and his warrior mentality/fighting spirit. We know Gohan's potential grows and grows, and his Ultimate form fills in his potential up to its current highest point.

It makes plenty of sense since Gohan was in base then and Tagoma was implied to be incapable of bringing out his full power, and the notion you're trying to push here was flat-out disproven in Episode 88 when Piccolo said Gohan couldn't even invoke his "original strength" (not just his potential) as a Super Saiyan 2. Herms said that's the correct translation of the statement and Tagoma was effortlessly stomped by Gotenks so it's all perfectly consistent.

On a general note, I'll never understand where all this Tagoma wank in the fanbase came from. The fact that it bothers me isn't just because it's completely nonsensical (and repeatedly disproven) but also because it's just so baffling as to why people would even do it in the first place. Despite training with Frieza, the dude wasn't even portrayed to be particularly special in regards to Buu Saga power levels and was reduced to a joke character the moment Gotenks entered the scene. The notion that he's doing anything at all to the likes of Ultimate Gohan is completely false and utterly ridiculous.

[Draconic]

Times Goku held back:

- against Krillin in the 22nd TB
- against Tenshinhan in the 22nd TB
- against Tenshinhan in the 23rd TB
- against Piccolo in the 23rd TB
- against Nappa on Earth
- against Ginyu on Namek
- against Future Trunks
- against Yakon
- against Majin Vegeta
- against Fat Buu
- against Kid Buu
- against Beerus in the movie
- against Botamo
- against Frost
- against Hit at the U6 Tournament
- against Black in the present
- against Zamasu in the present

Why is it so hard to imagine he's doing so now too?
Him using "tournament power" and "fighting power" has been his gimmick in every tournament.
Him using his strongest form then holding back while in it is his gimmick in the Buu arc.

If the character outright states or implies he's not going all out, like he did in every instance of him turning Blue in this arc, like it or not, it's the truth.

[SansrivaaL]

I will say tho, despite the fact that we can make sense of what happened... it was still cringe af, I think its because of knowing it was a homage scene.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Kale hit Goku SSJ2 and yet Goku left without a scratch.

Even after all, Goku went to Jiren as if nothing had happened.

Maybe it's SSB level, but it sure is not superior to Goku and neither Vegeta

Woulda been "dondon reki ireteikuzo/motto reki ireteikuzo" right trans is "I'm gonna put in a little more ki /power now"

Wait, so what did Goku say exactly?

Does he really say '' choto reki ireteikuzo ''? And does that even mean '' using a little more power ''?

It seemed like this

Yeah what you said was right, I meant if he was talking about "I'll release more power now" then he woulda said "dondon reki ireteikuzo/motto reki ireteikuzo"

Thanks for the clarification.

[dbgtFO]

Kale hit Goku SSJ2 and yet Goku left without a scratch.

Even after all, Goku went to Jiren as if nothing had happened.

So exactly like Kale, who got brutalized by Napapa and red alien guy?
Face it, battle damage or lack of it proves nothing. Motherfucking Napapa was getting stomped by Freeza a few episodes back, but he's fine and well here, as if nothing happened. Same with Kale, all she needed was some rest for a few seconds and then she's apparently ready to smash, as if nothing happened. Why would Goku be any different? The fights are there to take up time and that's about it until the actual plot relevant fights happen.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That doesn't make much sense. His best on a good day, yet Gohan 2 shots him as an SS1? What's more likely is that Gohan is stronger than he's ever been, but not at his best, meaning without access to all his transformations and his warrior mentality/fighting spirit. We know Gohan's potential grows and grows, and his Ultimate form fills in his potential up to its current highest point.

It makes plenty of sense since Gohan was in base then and Tagoma was implied to be incapable of bringing out his full power, and the notion you're trying to push here was flat-out disproven in Episode 88 when Piccolo said Gohan couldn't even invoke his "original strength" (not just his potential) as a Super Saiyan 2. Herms said that's the correct translation of the statement and Tagoma was effortlessly stomped by Gotenks so it's all perfectly consistent.

On a general note, I'll never understand where all this Tagoma wank in the fanbase came from. The fact that it bothers me isn't just because it's completely nonsensical (and repeatedly disproven) but also because it's just so baffling as to why people would even do it in the first place. Despite training with Frieza, the dude wasn't even portrayed to be particularly special in regards to Buu Saga power levels and was reduced to a joke character the moment Gotenks entered the scene. The notion that he's doing anything at all to the likes of Ultimate Gohan is completely false and utterly ridiculous.

If anything, Tagoma is most likely on the low-end of multiplication over Gohan, maybe 2-3 times stronger at the most, making him only 2-6 times stronger than Piccolo was, which is nothing. I'd actually wager that the gap between him and First Form Freeza is possibly quite similar to what it was when both of them had yet to train, with First Form Freeza being dozens of times stronger than Tagoma.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Can anyone translate this from Japanese to English? I think it is related to SSB Goku vs. SSBerserker Kale.

Kēru no ronsō no ichibu wa Gokū o riyō shite imashita. Soshite, sūpāsaiya hito burū de kamehameha o kaisai.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Kale hit Goku SSJ2 and yet Goku left without a scratch.

Even after all, Goku went to Jiren as if nothing had happened.

So exactly like Kale, who got brutalized by Napapa and red alien guy?
Face it, battle damage or lack of it proves nothing. Motherfucking Napapa was getting stomped by Freeza a few episodes back, but he's fine and well here, as if nothing happened. Same with Kale, all she needed was some rest for a few seconds and then she's apparently ready to smash, as if nothing happened. Why would Goku be any different? The fights are there to take up time and that's about it until the actual plot relevant fights happen.

I'm not just talking about messing up the clothes.

And Kale's case was very different. She was fainted and was clearly in pain, being completely subjugated by Napapa.

Goku was taking Keeru's blows, was thrown away and then headed toward her as if it were nothing. She did not faint, did not seem to be in pain, and still reacted to the attacks.

And after all, he confronted Jiren with no scratches, as if nothing had happened. I was not worried either.

[Bullza]

But we already know how strong they are. They are weaker than Good Boo. How much is anyone's guess.

Boo > Drugged Basil > Goku > Basil.

We don't know that for sure. When Goku fought Buu he said that he'd gotten even faster since slimming down and Goku was keeping him up with him just fine. So Goku should be faster than Buu and Drugged Basil which generally means he should be more powerful.

Buu got one over on him but it might not mean a whole lot because Krillin sorta did as well, Krillin also got one over on Gohan too.

[gofishus]

Times Goku held back:

- against Krillin in the 22nd TB
- against Tenshinhan in the 22nd TB
- against Tenshinhan in the 23rd TB
- against Piccolo in the 23rd TB
- against Nappa on Earth
- against Ginyu on Namek
- against Future Trunks
- against Yakon
- against Majin Vegeta
- against Fat Buu
- against Kid Buu
- against Beerus in the movie
- against Botamo
- against Frost
- against Hit at the U6 Tournament
- against Black in the present
- against Zamasu in the present

Why is it so hard to imagine he's doing so now too?
Him using "tournament power" and "fighting power" has been his gimmick in every tournament.
Him using his strongest form then holding back while in it is his gimmick in the Buu arc.

If the character outright states or implies he's not going all out, like he did in every instance of him turning Blue in this arc, like it or not, it's the truth.

You are right, except for Kid Buu. I dont think he was holding back there. He was fighting Kid Buu as a full strength SSJ3 and was so impressed with Kid Buu that he chose to reincarnate him. Its more notable the times that Goku DIDNT hold back, the times when he used his FULL power, this tends only to happen with main villains: against Vegeta the first time on Earth, against Frieza, against Cell and against Kid Buu.

[TheMikado]

Since many people want to dismiss the effectiveness of SSJ3 as a form, I thought it was noteworthy that Goku posed it as a goal worth reaching this episode.

"Holding back" Yeah, Goku's been holding back in every single fight he's ever been In. That's the excuse everyone uses when an opponent overpowers him lol.

Goku has held back in almost every single fight he's ever been in, yes. You're really going to try to deny this?

Just a quick question, please count up the number of times Goku held back AND got completely stomped simultaneously in DBZ? I'm just curious.

[apex_pretador]

Kale hulk-smashed SS2 Goku and did nothing to him.

By that logic, if Hulk does the same to superman, he can defeat him? Ofcourse not, and since flying is disabled in that arena, Goku could do nothing to stop himself from getting hulk-smashed once he was grabbed when Kale was stronger than him in SS2.

Everything points out to Kale being around SS3 Goku level or a bit higher, with increasing power with rage.

[Simere]

Since many people want to dismiss the effectiveness of SSJ3 as a form, I thought it was noteworthy that Goku posed it as a goal worth reaching this episode.

"Holding back" Yeah, Goku's been holding back in every single fight he's ever been In. That's the excuse everyone uses when an opponent overpowers him lol.

Goku has held back in almost every single fight he's ever been in, yes. You're really going to try to deny this?

Just a quick question, please count up the number of times Goku held back AND got completely stomped simultaneously in DBZ? I'm just curious.

You always have great questions, and if I'm not mistaken, the answer is: zero times.

[Bullza]

I don't think it'll become clear whether Goku was holding back or not until he fights Jiren.

If he fights Jiren just using Super Saiyan Blue and puts up a good fight against him then you can likely say that yeah he was holding back against Kale.

Wouldn't surprise me at all. I can't see Kale being stronger than Hit at all and I would figure Hit is still around Goku's strength which would mean Kale was weaker than Goku.

And like I said before it makes no sense for him to use his full power on Kale in the early parts of the Tournament when they've put an emphasis on them not wasting their stamina. Do people think the Kamehameha he used on the Trio De Dangers was his best?

Goku can fire a Kamehameha so powerful it all but breaks his arms or leaves him completely exhausted and unable to fight afterward. That obviously didn't happen here.

It's implied that Goku in Blue form can suppress his Kamehameha's power down to like 1%.