Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

I never had the impression that the current Super Saiyan Gohan was Ultimate tier, so I'm glad this episode put that whole dispute to rest.

What does 'Ultimate tier' even means? Gohan can easily be as strong as he was during the Buu Saga without his Ultimate form since it apparently works like Super Saiyan. Unless you think Ultimate Gohan in this episode is exactly as strong as he was during the Buu Saga.

I still believe Piccolo got nerfed really bad in ROF. Since we know that Gohan had no traces of mystic in him. Piccolo definitely should have been a good bit stronger than base Gohan. Piccolo basically got both unerfed and a lot stronger at the same time. SS2 tier after all these years feel right for Piccolo anyway.

He didn't get nerf. Piccolo got stronger. Thanks to training Gohan for eight months and he kept training, he has gotten much stronger. It is no different than how Piccolo when from being weaker than third form Freeza to being up there with the Super Saiyans in three years.

And honestly, Super Saiyan 2 is not a tier. Do everyone here believe that all Super Saiyan 2 are as strong as Cell Games Gohan?

[HeroR]

Well more and more I think they've put Goku and his Super Saiyan forms back to how they were at the start of Super. Essentially it's now also like the manga.

It'd make much more sense that way to be honest. They'd be plain better off doing it like that.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Roshi, he was giving it a good go against Goku. He had that thing on his face, not sure if that's powered him up or not. Again though seeing something like that does make me think Goku is just as he was at the start of Super, not powered up because of any God power.

That makes no sense. If Goku's Super Saiyan was back at where it was at Super, Slim Buu would have killed Goku since base form Goku was still weaker than final form Freeza according to Beerus. Yet, base form Goku was going blow by blow with Buu and got up with only minor annoyance.

And why do you keep mentioning the manga with Super Saiyan God Vegeta?

[TheSaiyanGod]

I never had the impression that the current Super Saiyan Gohan was Ultimate tier, so I'm glad this episode put that whole dispute to rest.

What does 'Ultimate tier' even means? Gohan can easily be as strong as he was during the Buu Saga without his Ultimate form since it apparently works like Super Saiyan. Unless you think Ultimate Gohan in this episode is exactly as strong as he was during the Buu Saga.

I still believe Piccolo got nerfed really bad in ROF. Since we know that Gohan had no traces of mystic in him. Piccolo definitely should have been a good bit stronger than base Gohan. Piccolo basically got both unerfed and a lot stronger at the same time. SS2 tier after all these years feel right for Piccolo anyway.

He didn't get nerf. Piccolo got stronger. Thanks to training Gohan for eight months and he kept training, he has gotten much stronger. It is no different than how Piccolo when from being weaker than third form Freeza to being up there with the Super Saiyans in three years.

And honestly, Super Saiyan 2 is not a tier. Do everyone here believe that all Super Saiyan 2 are as strong as Cell Games Gohan?

If his "Ultimate" state consists in having his hidden power completely released, I do not see why Gohan can not be on the same level as he was in the Boo Saga, especially as he got older, so his hidden power may have Increased.

And Piccolo in the Android Saga (before merging with Kami Sama) was not Vegeta's SSJ level,Dr. Gero was not that strong.

[HeroR]

If his "Ultimate" state consists in having his hidden power completely released, I do not see why Gohan can not be on the same level as he was in the Boo Saga, especially as he got older, so his hidden power may have Increased.

And Piccolo in the Android Saga (before merging with Kami Sama) was not Vegeta's SSJ level,Dr. Gero was not that strong.

He would have the 'exact' same power. Just as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan wasn't the exact same power he was during the Cell Games.

Also, yes Piccolo was. Krillin even said that Piccolo was as strong as Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Vegeta was strong, but Piccolo was stated to be within the power range of Vegeta and Trunks.

[LowRyder2005]

What does 'Ultimate tier' even means? Gohan can easily be as strong as he was during the Buu Saga without his Ultimate form since it apparently works like Super Saiyan. Unless you think Ultimate Gohan in this episode is exactly as strong as he was during the Buu Saga.

It's a fair objection, at least in theory. In practice, though, I don't see how Gohan could be as strong or stronger than ever without undermining or, even, downright contradicting the narrative: a big deal of the episode - and honestly, everything about Gohan ever since two years and a half - revolves about how everyone talks about Gohan was in comparison to how Gohan is now (a.k.a. "sloppy", "out of practice", "disappointing", whatever).

"Gohan doesn't train", "Gohan wants to regain his strength", "Gohan doesn't have the mind of a warrior", "Gohan is being retrained from scratch", "his ki is different from what I remembered". I mean, how do you keep a narrative like that if we are supposed to believe Gohan was already stronger all along? And why or how could he, even in-universe, since it's heavily implied he doesn't usually spend time training at all and prefers to be a scholar/family man?
It does need to be said that Gohan has a couple of feats that still have a hard time fitting in this puzzle as well (sparring with a SS Goku who actively trains, doing better than Piccolo in base against Tagoma), but I do think it almost undeniable that the general picture is supposed to reflect that "Gohan has the most potential, but he's a lazy fighter and as a result grew weaker and weaker".

Regardless, we know with certainty that Piccolo could not get much stronger in eight years in which he supposedly spent some time to train. Basically, it's U7 arc all over again, when there were many fervent proponents of the "Piccolo trained in the woods and reached Super Vegito/God tier" theory. After all these months I can't help but think it sounds just as odd as before.

The comparison between Piccolo and the Super Saiyans (namely, post-Namek Goku and Trunks) during the Android saga is actually quite vague in the manga: Krillin is just shocked that Piccolo has a power that high "without being a Super Saiyan". It's sensible to argue that Piccolo may not been that far off from a Super Saiyan, but it could also mean that he was just incredibly powerful even for a Namekian and on a whole nother (apparently unreachable) realm compared to what Krillin believed non-Super Saiyans could reach. He had only seen the ceiling of the low millions broken by Freeza and the Super Saiyans, after all.

[HeroR]

It's a fair objection, at least in theory. In practice, though, I don't see how Gohan could be as strong or stronger than ever without undermining or, even, downright contradicting the narrative: a big deal of the episode - and honestly, everything about Gohan ever since three years or so - revolves about how everyone talks about Gohan was in comparison to how Gohan is now (a.k.a. "sloppy", "out of practice", "disappointing", whatever).

"Gohan doesn't train", "Gohan wants to regain his strength", "Gohan doesn't have the mind of a warrior", "Gohan is being retrained from scratch", "his ki is different from what I remembered". I mean, how do you keep a narrative like that if we are supposed to believe Gohan was already stronger all along? And why or how could he, even in-universe, since it's heavily implied he doesn't usually spend time training at all and prefers to be a scholar/family man?
It does need to be said that Gohan has more than a couple of feats that still have a hard time fitting in this picture as well (sparring with a SS Goku who actively trains, doing better than Piccolo in base against Tagoma), but I do think it almost undeniable that the general picture is supposed to reflect that "Gohan has the most potential, but he's a lazy fighter and as a result got weaker and weaker".

Regardless, we know with certainty that Piccolo could not get much stronger in eight years in which he supposedly spent some time to train. Basically, it's U7 arc all over again, when there were many fervent proponents of the "Piccolo trained in the woods and reached Super Vegito/God tier" theory. After all these months I can't help but think it sounds just as odd as before.

The comparison between Piccolo and the Super Saiyans (namely, post-Namek Goku and Trunks) during the Android saga is actually quite vague in the manga: Krillin is just shocked that Piccolo has a power that high "without being a Super Saiyan". It's sensible to argue that Piccolo may not been that far off from a Super Saiyan, but it could also mean that he was just incredibly powerful even for a Namekian and on a whole nother (apparently unreachable) realm compared to what Krillin believed non-Super Saiyans could reach. He had only seen the ceiling of the low millions broken by Freeza and the Super Saiyans, after all.

Undermining what, what fans thought Ultimate was. Ultimate is still just Gohan at his full power. Since Gohan is older his overall power would naturally increased. So it isn't out there to think that his Super Saiyan forms with training can catch where he was in the Buu Saga at his best. The Buu Saga was almost ten years ago at this point.

Also, sloppy doesn't mean physically weaker. You can be physically strong and still be sloppy. That's basically what Golden Freeza was. We also saw Gohan trained with Piccolo for at least eight months. So he's nowhere near as out of practice as he was during the Resurrection 'F', where he was still the strongest of all the fighters there.

And what are you basing the bolded on? When was it ever said or hinted that Piccolo can't get much stronger in eight years. And Piccolo didn't just train in the woods. He trained with Gohan for at least eight months before the Chamap Saga and kept training. So this narrative that Piccolo 'could not get much stronger in eight years' is someone's fanfic.

[TheSaiyanGod]

If his "Ultimate" state consists in having his hidden power completely released, I do not see why Gohan can not be on the same level as he was in the Boo Saga, especially as he got older, so his hidden power may have Increased.

And Piccolo in the Android Saga (before merging with Kami Sama) was not Vegeta's SSJ level,Dr. Gero was not that strong.

He would have the 'exact' same power. Just as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan wasn't the exact same power he was during the Cell Games.

Also, yes Piccolo was. Krillin even said that Piccolo was as strong as Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Vegeta was strong, but Piccolo was stated to be within the power range of Vegeta and Trunks.

But because of his lack of training he was weakened. But the dormant power within him continues, which is why after the ritual of Ro Kaioshin, Gohan managed to defeat Boo (following his logic this would be impossible because he was Weaker because of lack of training).
If we consider that this state releases all of the hidden power of the Gohan regardless of the strength he was in, then he could be as strong or even stronger than in the Boo Saga.

Kuririn never said that Piccolo was Vegeta Super Saiyajin level. And yes that he was beating an android (said by Trunks as very powerful even if they were not the same as Trunks's future, Kuririn did not know that) even without being a Super Saiyan.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Dr.Gero was definitely not Vegeta's SSJ level, so Piccolo managed to defeat him.

[Marlowe89]

Since Gohan is older his overall power would naturally increased.

Characters don't just passively grow stronger as they get older without any training, that's nothing more than baseless speculation on your part. They've been repeatedly making it clear that Gohan has grown rusty and weak since the beginning of the show and he's only just now tapping into his Ultimate strength again.

Nobody's going to assume that Gohan is suddenly much stronger than his Buu arc Ultimate self.

[HeroR]

But because of his lack of training he was weakened. But the dormant power within him continues, which is why after the ritual of Ro Kaioshin, Gohan managed to defeat Boo (following his logic this would be impossible because he was Weaker because of lack of training).
If we consider that this state releases all of the hidden power of the Gohan regardless of the strength he was in, then he could be as strong or even stronger than in the Boo Saga.

Kuririn never said that Piccolo was Vegeta Super Saiyajin level. And yes that he was beating an android (said by Trunks as very powerful even if they were not the same as Trunks's future, Kuririn did not know that) even without being a Super Saiyan.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Dr.Gero was definitely not Vegeta's SSJ level, so Piccolo managed to defeat him.

He has been retrained, just not enough to released all his hidden power again. We clearly saw this in Episode 30. Even then, base form Gohan in Resurrection 'F' was stronger than Piccolo despite being rusty. Also, all the ritual did was unlocked all of Gohan's hidden power, pushed it past it limits and created what we call Ultimate. And I just said that chances are Gohan is much stronger than he was during the Buu Saga since, to be frank, Ultimate Gohan at Buu level isn't that powerful.

He said he was as strong as Super Saiyan, meaning that he was within the power range of Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta since those are the only Super Saiyans Krillin knows. I also didn't say he was stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta. I said he was within Vegeta's power range.

Since Gohan is older his overall power would naturally increased.

Characters don't just passively grow stronger as they get older without any training, that's nothing more than baseless speculation on your part. They've been repeatedly making it clear that Gohan has grown rusty and weak since the beginning of the show and he's only just now tapping into his Ultimate strength again.

Nobody's going to assume that Gohan is suddenly much stronger than his Buu arc Ultimate self.

Actually they do since there is such a thing as 'physical prime'. What was your limit before isn't your limit later, for better and worse. And we know that Gohan is stronger than his Ultimate self from the Buu Saga simply because his base form back in Resurrection 'F' was above Piccolo who was at least around the level of Perfect Cell when before Gohan's base form was only around Freeza's level.

And you can be rusty and not a great deal weaker since Goku called himself rusty at the beginning of this arc, yet no one claimed he has a power decreased.

[LowRyder2005]

Undermining what, what fans thought Ultimate was. Ultimate is still just Gohan at his full power. Since Gohan is older his overall power would naturally increased. So it isn't out there to think that his Super Saiyan forms with training can catch where he was in the Buu Saga at his best. The Buu Saga was almost ten years ago at this point.

Admitting and not necessarily conceding that Gohan's potential "increased", there's still the fact that Gohan is not someone who actively trains. It's not like this is something you can readily leave aside when trying to establish if he's ultimately stronger or not. Given what we knew from the manga, the last time Gohan was not training he did became, in fact, weaker. So far we have seen everyone acting like they're disappointed with his power and Gohan has been stated either to not be training, or be training very sparingly. It all points out to the fact that even if Gohan had more potential, he's out of shape and most likely... well, plain "weaker", just like before. I don't really see this as anything different than not hitting the gym and losing muscle mass, mental focus etc.

But anyway, in this very episode Goku says that taking into account Gohan's "original power" (emphasis on original) he should've fought better. This already should prove that Super Saiyan Gohan was - at the very least, and if it was ever needed - not stronger than the Ultimate Gohan Goku remembered. It was less impressive in both style and substance.

So this narrative that Piccolo 'could not get much stronger in eight years' is someone's fanfic.

It is no one's fanfiction, it's the actual manga. Piccolo was still in awe at Majin Vegeta's power, which was comparable to SS2 Gohan's. Compared to a Piccolo who could surpass a supposedly "stronger than before" SS2 Gohan in mere months, it still quantifies as Piccolo not becoming "much stronger" compared to the boost in power some might theorize now that he trashed around SS Gohan. Of course, we don't know what kind of training or how much did Piccolo train, so there's that, but it still doesn't look like Piccolo had a new and revolutionary training routine in-between the U7 tournament and today (which is, if you watched the episode, when Piccolo obtained this particular boost).

[ZombieVito]

This episode delivered the goods.

It's great to finally have confirmation that Ultimate Gohan is indeed a transformation. This also confirms base Gohan was not stronger than Piccolo in RoF.

Was it said that Gohan used SSJ2 in the episode? Or people just say that because of the sparks?

Piccolo must have really got hurt by losing to Frost. He improved a lot in such a short time.

[HeroR]

Undermining what, what fans thought Ultimate was. Ultimate is still just Gohan at his full power. Since Gohan is older his overall power would naturally increased. So it isn't out there to think that his Super Saiyan forms with training can catch where he was in the Buu Saga at his best. The Buu Saga was almost ten years ago at this point.

Admitting and not necessarily conceding that Gohan's potential "increased", there's still the fact that Gohan is not someone who actively trains. It's not like this is something you can readily leave aside when trying to establish if he's ultimately stronger or not. Given what we knew from the manga, the last time Gohan was not training he did became, in fact, weaker. So far we have seen everyone acting like they're disappointed with his power and Gohan has been stated either to not be training, or be training very sparingly. It all points out to the fact that even if Gohan had more potential, he's out of shape and most likely... well, plain "weaker", just like before. I don't really see this as anything different than not hitting the gym and losing muscle mass, mental focus etc.

But anyway, in this very episode Goku says that taking into account Gohan's "original power" (emphasis on original) he should've fought better. This already should prove that Super Saiyan Gohan was - at the very least, and if it was ever needed - not stronger than the Ultimate Gohan Goku remembered. It was less impressive in both style and substance.

So this narrative that Piccolo 'could not get much stronger in eight years' is someone's fanfic.

It is no one's fanfiction, it's the actual manga. Piccolo was still in awe at Majin Vegeta's power, which was comparable to SS2 Gohan's. Compared to a Piccolo who could surpass a stronger than before SS2 Gohan, it still quantifies as Piccolo not gaining "much stronger" compared to the boost in power some might theorize now. Of course we don't know what kind or how much did Piccolo train, so there's that, but it still doesn't look like Piccolo had a new and revolutionary training routine in-between the U7 tournament and today (which is, if you watched the episode, when Piccolo obtained these boost).
I understand that, essentially, to you Gohan is still strong or even stronger than whatever he was (I still didn't quite catch if before or after today's episode).

A lot of his is fan assumption, especially since a rusty Gohan's base form was still stronger than Piccolo in Resurrection 'F' and he has retrained. Just not enough to reawakening all hi hidden power. They're disappointed because Gohan can be much, much stronger. They don't want him to just be as strong as he was during the Buu Saga. They want him to be stronger, to reached his absolute full power.

Piccolo being in awe at Majin Vegeta doesn't mean that he can't get stronger. He was also in awe of Freeza's power and he surpassed Freeza just by training with Super Saiyan Goku for three years. And keep in mind, Piccolo trained with Gohan for eight months and kept going. He also had the experience of fighting at the tournament and seeing his own weaknesses. Piccolo doesn't get stronger by 'revolutionary training routine'. In fact, no one has since the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Even Whis' training is pretty mundane.

My stance that Super Saiyan Gohan was at least on par with Ultimate Gohan during the Buu Saga given that his base form was stronger than Piccolo, who's within Perfect Cell's range. This is after Beerus claimed base form Goku was weaker than Freeza. So even rusty, Gohan kept a lot of his power since his base form was originally weaker than Goku's in the Buu Saga. And he added Super Saiyan on top of that powerful base.

This episode delivered the goods.

It's great to finally have confirmation that Ultimate Gohan is indeed a transformation. This also confirms base Gohan was not stronger than Piccolo in RoF.

Was it said that Gohan used SSJ2 in the episode? Or people just say that because of the sparks?

Piccolo must have really got hurt by losing to Frost. He improved a lot in such a short time.

It doesn't confirmed that at all since Piccolo got stronger to the point that Gohan is shocked by the increased. And you're still ignoring that no one in Resurrection 'F' claimed that Piccolo was the strongest even before they saw Super Saiyan Gohan. Tagomo, Ginyu, and Freeza all called Gohan the strongest Earth fighter. Piccolo being stronger than base form Gohan now doesn't goes against that. That is like saying Piccolo was Super Saiyan level during the Freeze Saga because he's that level in the Android Saga.

[TheSaiyanGod]

But because of his lack of training he was weakened. But the dormant power within him continues, which is why after the ritual of Ro Kaioshin, Gohan managed to defeat Boo (following his logic this would be impossible because he was Weaker because of lack of training).
If we consider that this state releases all of the hidden power of the Gohan regardless of the strength he was in, then he could be as strong or even stronger than in the Boo Saga.

Kuririn never said that Piccolo was Vegeta Super Saiyajin level. And yes that he was beating an android (said by Trunks as very powerful even if they were not the same as Trunks's future, Kuririn did not know that) even without being a Super Saiyan.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Dr.Gero was definitely not Vegeta's SSJ level, so Piccolo managed to defeat him.

He has been retrained, just not enough to released all his hidden power again. We clearly saw this in Episode 30. Even then, base form Gohan in Resurrection 'F' was stronger than Piccolo despite being rusty. Also, all the ritual did was unlocked all of Gohan's hidden power, pushed it past it limits and created what we call Ultimate. And I just said that chances are Gohan is much stronger than he was during the Buu Saga since, to be frank, Ultimate Gohan at Buu level isn't that powerful.

He said he was as strong as Super Saiyan, meaning that he was within the power range of Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta since those are the only Super Saiyans Krillin knows. I also didn't say he was stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta. I said he was within Vegeta's power range.

Since Gohan is older his overall power would naturally increased.

Characters don't just passively grow stronger as they get older without any training, that's nothing more than baseless speculation on your part. They've been repeatedly making it clear that Gohan has grown rusty and weak since the beginning of the show and he's only just now tapping into his Ultimate strength again.

Nobody's going to assume that Gohan is suddenly much stronger than his Buu arc Ultimate self.

Actually they do since there is such a thing as 'physical prime'. What was your limit before isn't your limit later, for better and worse. And we know that Gohan is stronger than his Ultimate self from the Buu Saga simply because his base form back in Resurrection 'F' was above Piccolo who was at least around the level of Perfect Cell when before Gohan's base form was only around Freeza's level.

And you can be rusty and not a great deal weaker since Goku called himself rusty at the beginning of this arc, yet no one claimed he has a power decreased.

I just showed the image. Where did Kuririn say that Piccolo has the level of a Super Saiyan?
He is surprised by the fact that Namekuseijin faces someone so strong even without being a Super Saiyan (they were the only ones who could supposedly face these androids, actually 19 and 20 were not all that)
In addition, after Piccolo merges with Kami-Sama, Vegeta feels his Ki and for the first time speaks: "This power, I am sure that surpassed my Super Saiyajin", which implies that only at that moment Piccolo was superior ,not before.

The fully liberated state of power has no training. Gohan did not have to train to confront Boo after the ritual, simply because the ritual had already done the job.
The ritual just released all of his hidden power, the power he had stored inside him (and that he was not releasing, as it usually happens when he gets angry, and he was still untrained).
He released all of his hidden power again, so it's the same situation as the Saga Boo, even though he was weakened, since in the Boo Saga he was also

[HeroR]

I just showed the image. Where did Kuririn say that Piccolo has the level of a Super Saiyan?
He is surprised by the fact that Namekuseijin confronts someone so strong even without being a Super Saiyan (they were the only ones able to deal with the androids, even though Androids 19 and 20 were not all that).
In addition, after Piccolo merges with Kami-Sama, Vegeta feels his Ki and for the first time speaks: "This power, I am sure that surpassed my Super Saiyajin", which implies that only at that moment Piccolo was superior ,not before.

The fully liberated state of power has no training. Gohan did not have to train to confront Boo after the ritual, simply because the ritual had already done the job.
The ritual just released all of his hidden power, the power he had stored inside him (and that he was not releasing, as it usually happens when he gets angry, and he was still untrained).
He released all of his hidden power again, so it's the same situation as the Saga Boo, even though he was weakened, since in the Boo Saga he was also

Krillin saying that Piccolo is on par with a Super Saiyan is in literally every version of the Android Saga. And you're assuming that Androids 19 and 20 are these weaklings when they're at least stronger than Freeza, someone that Piccolo couldn't even touch before.

Being equal to Super Saiyan, before merging. Surpassing after merging. Not hard to follow.

[Marlowe89]

But anyway, in this very episode Goku says that taking into account Gohan's "original power" (emphasis on original) he should've fought better. This already should prove that Super Saiyan Gohan was - at the very least, and if it was ever needed - not stronger than the Ultimate Gohan Goku remembered. It was less impressive in both style and substance.

They even talk about him regaining his previous strength. This is all about as clear-cut as it gets: Gohan isn't as strong as he used to be and his Ultimate form was therefore reintroduced primarily for the purpose of obtaining his former power.

I think most of us can safely close this case since the dialogue is overall just extremely clear and unambiguous about it. If people want to dispute it, they can take it up with the episode itself.

[Bullza]

[That makes no sense. If Goku's Super Saiyan was back at where it was at Super, Slim Buu would have killed Goku since base form Goku was still weaker than final form Freeza according to Beerus. Yet, base form Goku was going blow by blow with Buu and got up with only minor annoyance.

Why would Buu kill his friend in a non serious sparring match?

Super Saiyan Blue Goku didn't kill Krillin. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta didn't kill Trunks.

[LowRyder2005]

This episode delivered the goods.

It's great to finally have confirmation that Ultimate Gohan is indeed a transformation. This also confirms base Gohan was not stronger than Piccolo in RoF.

Was it said that Gohan used SSJ2 in the episode? Or people just say that because of the sparks?

Piccolo must have really got hurt by losing to Frost. He improved a lot in such a short time.

Sparks. But it does seem likely, since Gohan was trying to increase his power output and Piccolo could match his Super Saiyan form almost effortlessly.

I'm on the same boat regarding Piccolo being stronger than (at the very least) base Gohan throughout both ROF and U7.

A lot of his is fan assumption, especially since a rusty Gohan's base form was still stronger than Piccolo in Resurrection 'F' and he has retrained. Just not enough to reawakening all hi hidden power. They're disappointed because Gohan can be much, much stronger. They don't want him to just be as strong as he was during the Buu Saga. They want him to be stronger, to reached his absolute full power.

Piccolo being in awe at Majin Vegeta doesn't mean that he can't get stronger. He was also in awe of Freeza's power and he surpassed Freeza just by training with Super Saiyan Goku for three years. And keep in mind, Piccolo trained with Gohan for eight months and kept going. He also had the experience of fighting at the tournament and seeing his own weaknesses. Piccolo doesn't get stronger by 'revolutionary training routine'. In fact, no one has since the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Even Whis' training is pretty mundane.

My stance that Super Saiyan Gohan was at least on par with Ultimate Gohan during the Buu Saga given that his base form was stronger than Piccolo, who's within Perfect Cell's range. This is after Beerus claimed base form Goku was weaker than Freeza. So even rusty, Gohan kept a lot of his power since his base form was originally weaker than Goku's in the Buu Saga. And he added Super Saiyan on top of that powerful base.

I won't deny that, but it's not like most of your ideas are exactly less reliant on assumptions in my view. Regarding Gohan's base power in ROF and given how little we know about the whole situation there, there is plenty of leeway to make it work in-universe. Starting from the idea that Gohan may have been tapping into "some" of his Ultimate power, to the fact that we don't know if Piccolo was factually more tired than Gohan, that Piccolo had his weights on, etc.

The Majin Vegeta's example was merely to point out that a Piccolo who had most likely trained with some constance (routinely, if you want to believe Toriyama's words on Piccolo's training regime) could not surpass the SS2 wall after all that time (never minding his power being inelegantly being labeled as "trash" in comparison to Goku's, Vegeta's and a weakened Gohan's might). I'm arguing that at the very least, even putting aside Gohan's supposed powerful form, Piccolo suddenly becoming this strong is not really as intuitive as you're making it sound to me. I'm much more inclined to believe that - while Piccolo got stronger, but not abnormally so - it was again Gohan who had lost most of his power and who had not fought a serious Piccolo yet. I deem the ROF scenes and Gohan and Goku being even in their spar as relatively easier to justify, in retrospect.

[ZombieVito]

This episode delivered the goods.

It's great to finally have confirmation that Ultimate Gohan is indeed a transformation. This also confirms base Gohan was not stronger than Piccolo in RoF.

Was it said that Gohan used SSJ2 in the episode? Or people just say that because of the sparks?

Piccolo must have really got hurt by losing to Frost. He improved a lot in such a short time.

Sparks. But it does seem likely, since Gohan was trying to increase his power output and Piccolo could match his Super Saiyan form almost effortlessly.

I'm on the same boat regarding Piccolo being stronger than (at the very least) base Gohan throughout both ROF and U7.

I suppose the sparks and the hair is enough confirmation.

Gohan's base in RoF pretty much has to be equal to his Boo arc self (Weaker than Namek Freeza) since he couldn't transform into Ultimate. You can even have him weaker than that.

Do you guys think Piccolo big power increase came after the U6 arc? He shouldn't get big jumps in power before that arc at least.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I just showed the image. Where did Kuririn say that Piccolo has the level of a Super Saiyan?
He is surprised by the fact that Namekuseijin confronts someone so strong even without being a Super Saiyan (they were the only ones able to deal with the androids, even though Androids 19 and 20 were not all that).
In addition, after Piccolo merges with Kami-Sama, Vegeta feels his Ki and for the first time speaks: "This power, I am sure that surpassed my Super Saiyajin", which implies that only at that moment Piccolo was superior ,not before.

The fully liberated state of power has no training. Gohan did not have to train to confront Boo after the ritual, simply because the ritual had already done the job.
The ritual just released all of his hidden power, the power he had stored inside him (and that he was not releasing, as it usually happens when he gets angry, and he was still untrained).
He released all of his hidden power again, so it's the same situation as the Saga Boo, even though he was weakened, since in the Boo Saga he was also

Krillin saying that Piccolo is on par with a Super Saiyan is in literally every version of the Android Saga. And you're assuming that Androids 19 and 20 are these weaklings when they're at least stronger than Freeza, someone that Piccolo couldn't even touch before.

Being equal to Super Saiyan, before merging. Surpassing after merging. Not hard to follow.

In what versions is it said that he is at the level of a Super Saiyan? Are they reliable versions? Or official? Because in those I have seen it is not said so

There is no way to say that they were stronger than Freeza.
The data they had about Goku, for example, was from the Saiyajin Saga. And he did not even say that it could get so strong in that time. Probably they did not imagine getting so strong about it

[HeroR]

[That makes no sense. If Goku's Super Saiyan was back at where it was at Super, Slim Buu would have killed Goku since base form Goku was still weaker than final form Freeza according to Beerus. Yet, base form Goku was going blow by blow with Buu and got up with only minor annoyance.

Why would Buu kill his friend in a non serious sparring match?

Super Saiyan Blue Goku didn't kill Krillin. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta didn't kill Trunks.

Goku said he wanted to see how much Buu improved, so why would Buu hold back if Goku wanted to see how strong he became? If pushed, Buu knows that Goku can used Super Saiyan. Goku didn't bother, yet he did against Krillin. If anything, Buu would want to pushed Goku to transformed, not just level himself, which would undermined why Goku even wanted to spar him.

Those are different since Goku and Vegeta were the strongest in those cases. Goku is stronger than Buu if he just transformed into a certain form and Buu knows that. And Buu has never shown that amount of restraint as Goku and Vegeta.

In what versions is it said that he is at the level of a Super Saiyan? Are they reliable versions? Or official? Because in those I have seen it is not said so

There is no way to say that they were stronger than Freeza.
The data they had about Goku, for example, was from the Saiyajin Saga. And he did not even say that it could get so strong in that time. Probably they did not imagine getting so strong about it

Ah, yes.

Base on what? Nothing said that they were weaker than Freeza, especially since they were fighting Super Saiyans who trained for three years. And the androids put up a better fight than cyborg Freeza.

Sparks. But it does seem likely, since Gohan was trying to increase his power output and Piccolo could match his Super Saiyan form almost effortlessly.

I'm on the same boat regarding Piccolo being stronger than (at the very least) base Gohan throughout both ROF and U7.

I suppose the sparks and the hair is enough confirmation.

Gohan's base in RoF pretty much has to be equal to his Boo arc self (Weaker than Namek Freeza) since he couldn't transform into Ultimate. You can even have him weaker than that.

Do you guys think Piccolo big power increase came after the U6 arc? He shouldn't get big jumps in power before that arc at least.[/quote]

Gohan's base can't be just as strong as Namek Saga Freeza otherwise everyone would have called Piccolo the strongest fighter and try to kill him. They didn't. There is literally nothing in Resurrection 'F' that makes Piccolo stronger. All information shows and state the opposite.

I won't deny that, but it's not like most of your ideas are exactly less reliant on assumptions in my view. Regarding Gohan's base power in ROF and given how little we know about the whole situation there, there is plenty of leeway to make it work in-universe. Starting from the idea that Gohan may have been tapping into "some" of his Ultimate power, to the fact that we don't know if Piccolo was factually more tired than Gohan, that Piccolo had his weights on, etc.

The Majin Vegeta's example was merely to point out that a Piccolo who had most likely trained with some constance (routinely, if you want to believe Toriyama's words on Piccolo's training regime) could not surpass the SS2 wall after all that time (never minding his power being inelegantly being labeled as "trash" in comparison to Goku's, Vegeta's and a weakened Gohan's might). I'm arguing that at the very least, even putting aside Gohan's supposed powerful form, Piccolo suddenly becoming this strong is not really as intuitive as you're making it sound to me. I'm much more inclined to believe that - while Piccolo got stronger, but not abnormally so - it was again Gohan who had lost most of his power and who had not fought a serious Piccolo yet. I deem the ROF scenes and Gohan and Goku being even in their spar as relatively easier to justify, in retrospect.

Everyone called Gohan the strongest in Resurrection 'F' even before Super Saiyan. Togamo, Ginyu, and Freeza called Gohan he strongest, and Freeza can sense ki. If Piccolo was truly stronger, they would have pegged him as such. Instead, they treated Piccolo as a mere annoyance with Togamo actively mocking him. And weighed Piccolo only has a increased of 20%, not that big.

What is Super Saiyan 2 wall since Super Saiyan 2 isn't a level, but a multiplier. And Piccolo becoming stronger is no more far-fetched than his 100x increased in the Android Saga. Also, Piccolo got a taste of the wider universe, just like Goku and Vegeta. So he can easily be encouraged to raised his power past its limits.

Trying to gimped Gohan so he can accept Piccolo's increase in power isn't overdoing it since Gohan throughout Resurrection 'F' was shown as the strongest and we know that Piccolo was around Perfect Cell's level at the very least.