Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

When did I say there was a difference? The word "power" is ambiguous enough in that it can either refer to a specific ability/form or it can refer to strength, but Piccolo elaborates even further in the same episode and says "strength" outright. There is NO ambiguity here - Gohan simply wasn't as strong as he was originally, prior to unlocking his utmost form.

That's all there is to it. People can pretend that Piccolo was talking about his potential or something if they want but that's not what is presented in the episode's dialogue at all. It's very clear-cut.

Gohan's original strength is his full power Potential unleashed state which supersedes his Super Saiyan forms.

Can't just ignore the material that states and shows that Gohan was Ultimate before this episode. Once again, bangless Gohan with his father's gi is Ultimate.

[ZombieVito]

I wonder if he's still inferior to Fat Buu.

There's plenty of room for him to be superior to SSJ2 Gohan but inferior to Fat Buu if Gohan was anything like he was in the Buu saga.

Gohan shouldn't be exactly like his Boo arc self though. His training with Piccolo after RoF should make him a bit stronger.

[Bullza]

1 is impossible since base Goku recently fought a powered up Mr Buu.

So Nr. 2 is most likely. Basically Goku and Vegeta r just dicking around to much. That would also go hand in hand with Trunks' inability to sense god ki in base form prior to his ssj rage power up. He simply was at buu saga levels, while Goku who was above that in base simply regressed his power to that of Trunks so he can tell Goku how strong Goku Black is. Plus Vegeta also says in same episode that ssj3 is barely the tip of the iceberg in comparison to Goku's real power. And based on what Trunks told them after the power comparison, Goku and Vegeta thought it would be a breeze to stomp Black.

Buu could have and almost certainly would have to some extent held back. This wasn't a serious Buu fighting to the death or anything.

The second option...just seems stupid. It'd be one thing if he were fighting all these people in Base form and just using as much power as was necessary but he'd be suppressing himself but then also be turning Super Saiyan, 2 and 3 at the same time?

Why would he be transforming as opposed to just increasing his Base power a tad?

Besides I don't think that's really the intention. Going by the anime and the manga, it would seem that Goku and Trunks were supposed to be within the same general level and Trunks for a fact wasn't even God level.

Plus the whole reason they even fought was because Goku wanted Trunks to compare him to Black so why would he be suppressing himself in the first place?

[Arg]

Some notable points from this episode:

- Gohan said he wanted to become "even stronger". Therefore, this acknowledges his several month training past RoF, so he is stronger than he was back then.
- It was also emphasized that he was not lacking power.
- Piccolo acts a bit shocked for a moment when gohan goes super saiyan, but then goes back to normal instantly. Does this imply he is surprised by Gohan's Super Saiyan state?
- It is confirmed that Gohan was not or hasn't been as strong as Mystic since long time. Therefore, either Gohan's super saiyan states are nowhere near as good boost as they used to be, or Lavender is a joke compared to Basil and Bergamo.
- Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was losing to Piccolo.
- Gohan can't believe Piccolo's power level. So, this means Piccolo has far surpassed his past self
- Piccolo fights ultimate gohan for hours off panel
- Piccolo says that this power is not the limit for gohan, and they both training together will break the limit.



The chain looks like:

U Gohan >= Piccolo > SS2 Gohan (Current) > SS Gohan (Current) > Majin buu (Fat buu) > U6 arc Piccolo > base gohan current) > SS Gohan (RoF) > Tagoma > RoF Piccolo > SS kid trunks >> #18 > Krillin

Piccolo finally surpassing buu looks likely.



As for goku and Vegeta, their battles can never be used as an indication for power levels.

- Goku exchanged blows with assaault form frost and then transformed to super saiyan. Vegeta also transformed against weakened frost.
- Vegeta transformed against Cabba to super saiyan and to SSB
- Goku transformed against trunks and zamasu
- Goku transformed against Gohan
- Goku transformed against Bergamo
- He transformed against Krillin
- He used SSB against 17


So, basically, Goku can fight anyone with any form.

Good points. The only thing is that #18 would break kid trunks in my opinion.

[Bullza]

I wonder if he's still inferior to Fat Buu.

There's plenty of room for him to be superior to SSJ2 Gohan but inferior to Fat Buu if Gohan was anything like he was in the Buu saga.

Gohan shouldn't be exactly like his Boo arc self though. His training with Piccolo after RoF should make him a bit stronger.

Yeah and now that I think about it, even before he became Ultimate Gohan, he'd powered up significantly from training with the Z Sword too. Which in my opinion at that point he'd surpassed Goku who wasn't able to swing it nearly as well.

In the Super manga we saw that Trunks mastered the Z Sword in the same way and he was said to be stronger than Cell Games Gohan. Though of course he was still below Dabura as a Super Saiyan.

[Marlowe89]

Gohan's original strength is his full power Potential unleashed state which supersedes his Super Saiyan forms.

Gohan's original strength is how strong he was originally, because that's exactly what "original strength" means. You're not going to convince anyone that these two words aren't abiding by their textbook definitions.

Can't just ignore the material that states and shows that Gohan was Ultimate before this episode. Once again, bangless Gohan with his father's gi is Ultimate.

That material doesn't state Gohan was Ultimate before this episode, and sure I can, because that's advertising material for future content. We've seen other previews of a bangless Gohan at the Tournament of Power and a "scoop" is exactly what it implies, a taste of what we're about to see in the arc.

[SaiyanGod117]

So it seems to me before this episode, Gohan's power was around his SSJ2 Buu Saga self. Now his power is exactly at how it was during the later parts of the Buu Saga.

I don't think it was. Toei has acknowledged Gohan's training with Piccolo ever since the events of RoF, and that was when he was about even in base form with his mentor; his Super Saiyan power just wasn't up to his full Ultimate potential at the time.

I think it's safer to say that Gohan is close to Super Buu as a SS2, and that he needed one last push to re-unlock Ultimate.

That makes no sense to me. Since the writers are putting so much emphasis of how his current power; pales in-comparison to his original power. In the ROF arc, Gohan was stronger than Piccolo as a SSJ, by a lot. He's definitely increased his power since then, but not by much. It seems like to me Gohan has been training here and there,( Similar to his Buu Saga self) while Piccolo has been training on a daily basis. With the added fact, of how much the writers highlighted how much of a boost Ultimate was, Gohan chopped off Piccolo's arm like it was appear paper-mache. While a few minutes before that, he was getting thrown around like a child.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Gohan's original strength is how strong he was originally, because that's exactly what "original strength" means. You're not going to convince anyone that these two words aren't abiding by their textbook definitions.

It can mean that. It doesn't have to. His full powered Potential unleashed state is his original strength. Your explanation isn't the definition for the term.

Sure I can, because that's advertising material for future content. We've seen other previews of a bangless Gohan at the Tournament of Power and a "scoop" is exactly what it implies, a taste of what we're about to see in the arc.

You can be in denial if you want. The designs in the article are stated to be Ultimate Gohan, so any Gohan matching that design is Ultimate Gohan. If you're saying that Gohan during the exhibition match wasn't Ultimate, I'll just keep pointing you to the design art. Open and shut.

[SaiyanGod117]

You can be in denial if you want. The designs in the article are stated to be Ultimate Gohan, so any Gohan matching that design is Ultimate Gohan. If you're saying that Gohan during the exhibition match wasn't Ultimate, I'll just keep pointing you to the design art. Open and shut.

Do we know how credible those articles are? I would say it's better to take things as concrete from the show, then some online pamphlet. As if it condraticts what's actually being shown, than it should be disregarded.

[Basako]

My thoughts about Gohan: He got to be the strongest non fused being in the Boo arc thanks to the power unlocking. Ultimate is not a transformation, it's base. We know this because the elder specificaly said transforming to SS states wouldn't make a difference, if the ultimate had been another transformation, he wouldn't have said that. As he stopped training for years, he lost the power, so he had to rely on the SS transformations again. Now looks like he has gained the ultimate level again, maybe more, he basically reunlocked his power one more time.

My thoughts about Piccolo: We had him somewhere between SS and SS2 in the Cell arc and in the Boo arc probably too. In the last chapter we see him handling SS2 Gohan, even if he wasn't in his full, that's not a minor thing. Piccolo continued training and the fight against Frost probably motivated him to increase his level. I think he is definitely above the SS2 level now.

[Marlowe89]

It can mean that.

It does mean that. It's not my problem you can't reconcile your own interpretation with the meaning of a term as simple and unambiguous as "original strength".

If you're saying that Gohan during the exhibition match wasn't Ultimate, I'll just keep pointing you to the design art. Open and shut.

And I'll just keep repeating "That's advertising material for future content. We've seen other previews of a bangless Gohan at the Tournament of Power and a "scoop" is exactly what it implies, a taste of what we're about to see in the arc". Open and shut.

But I won't repeat it because we're clearly going absolutely nowhere with this. So believe whatever you want.

[ZombieVito]

My thoughts about Gohan: He got to be the strongest non fused being in the Boo arc thanks to the power unlocking. Ultimate is not a transformation, it's base. We know this because the elder specificaly said transforming to SS states wouldn't make a difference, if the ultimate had been another transformation, he wouldn't have said that. As he stopped training for years, he lost the power, so he had to rely on the SS transformations again. Now looks like he has gained the ultimate level again, maybe more, he basically reunlocked his power one more time.

My thoughts about Piccolo: We had him somewhere between SS and SS2 in the Cell arc and in the Boo arc probably too. In the last chapter we see him handling SS2 Gohan, even if he wasn't in his full, that's not a minor thing. Piccolo continued training and the fight against Frost probably motivated him to increase his level. I think he is definitely above the SS2 level now.

Ultimate is a transformation...

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

My thoughts about Gohan: He got to be the strongest non fused being in the Boo arc thanks to the power unlocking. Ultimate is not a transformation, it's base. We know this because the elder specificaly said transforming to SS states wouldn't make a difference, if the ultimate had been another transformation, he wouldn't have said that. As he stopped training for years, he lost the power, so he had to rely on the SS transformations again. Now looks like he has gained the ultimate level again, maybe more, he basically reunlocked his power one more time.

My thoughts about Piccolo: We had him somewhere between SS and SS2 in the Cell arc and in the Boo arc probably too. In the last chapter we see him handling SS2 Gohan, even if he wasn't in his full, that's not a minor thing. Piccolo continued training and the fight against Frost probably motivated him to increase his level. I think he is definitely above the SS2 level now.

Not according to Super. I've posted this before, but no one seems to listen. Geekdom101 weighs in on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy9Q7SzyyA4

Basically, it's an attempt to reconcile things. The anime hasn't actually contradicted anything that the original manga said, it's just that fans read into the dialogue and made assumptions about the intent, which seems to have been cleared up now. Elder Kai never makes it clear what Gohan's Ultimate state is beyond being his fully unlocked potential. That could've mean any number of things back then, but Super has clarified that Gohan slacking on his training meant he couldn't tap into his full power, his Ultimate state, and had to rely on Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 to increase his power in battle.

Going by what the anime presents now, a better way of putting Elder Kai's statement is that going Super Saiyan would be useless for Gohan because he'd be doing so from his base form, but it would be less powerful and more straining than going Ultimate.

To summarize, going Ultimate is a means of tapping into potential power, similar to Super Saiyan forms, but is far more effective and requires training and being a warrior in heart to maintain the ability to tap into that power.

[MisteryOne]

My thoughts about Gohan: He got to be the strongest non fused being in the Boo arc thanks to the power unlocking. Ultimate is not a transformation, it's base. We know this because the elder specificaly said transforming to SS states wouldn't make a difference, if the ultimate had been another transformation, he wouldn't have said that. As he stopped training for years, he lost the power, so he had to rely on the SS transformations again. Now looks like he has gained the ultimate level again, maybe more, he basically reunlocked his power one more time.

My thoughts about Piccolo: We had him somewhere between SS and SS2 in the Cell arc and in the Boo arc probably too. In the last chapter we see him handling SS2 Gohan, even if he wasn't in his full, that's not a minor thing. Piccolo continued training and the fight against Frost probably motivated him to increase his level. I think he is definitely above the SS2 level now.

Ultimate is a transformation...

It wasn't in the original manga trough.

[Basako]

My thoughts about Gohan: He got to be the strongest non fused being in the Boo arc thanks to the power unlocking. Ultimate is not a transformation, it's base. We know this because the elder specificaly said transforming to SS states wouldn't make a difference, if the ultimate had been another transformation, he wouldn't have said that. As he stopped training for years, he lost the power, so he had to rely on the SS transformations again. Now looks like he has gained the ultimate level again, maybe more, he basically reunlocked his power one more time.

My thoughts about Piccolo: We had him somewhere between SS and SS2 in the Cell arc and in the Boo arc probably too. In the last chapter we see him handling SS2 Gohan, even if he wasn't in his full, that's not a minor thing. Piccolo continued training and the fight against Frost probably motivated him to increase his level. I think he is definitely above the SS2 level now.

Ultimate is a transformation...

Elder: Transforming is not everything.

Why would he say that if in fact this ultimate was another transformation? It's a power up, in base.

If Toei writers got it wrong, is their problem. It looks like they changed SS Gohan in the movie for ultimate just because the fans asked, so it wasn't in Toriyama's script. I understand why the fans asked, they didn't know that Gohan had lost his power for not training, but we know that now. In that case, they shouldn't have listened to the fans.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

According to the original manga, going Ultimate is a powering up process like Super Saiyan, but is better than transforming, so it isn't a transformation.

According to the current anime, access to Ultimate can be lost when Gohan slacks in training, as well as not having his heart in it for the fight as a warrior.

===

These aren't mutually exclusive, you know. Ultimate isn't a transformation, but it's ALSO not just one's base power. It's LIKE powering up as a Super Saiyan, but is a better way of doing so. Basically, it's a "second base", so to speak, separate from the normal base. Two-Base Theory is basically how Ultimate works, but it's ACTUALLY confirmed.

In essence, Gohan taps into his full potential, entering the Ultimate state from his base form, which is physically indistinguishable from his normal base form, but is stronger than if he were to transform into a Super Saiyan from his base form. Because he slacked on training and hadn't possessed the mind/heart of a warrior for the longest while, Gohan couldn't access this "second base" or Ultimate until after being trained by Piccolo once again.

[Ki Breaker]

About Vegeta

When goku didn't train he was out of shape to the point of getting hurt by a bullet, they are going out of their way to show Vegeta doing nothing at all, he is literally changing diapers now..

How likely is it for an out of shape Vegeta or a less powerful Vegeta show up now

[jeffbr92]

Ultimate is a transformation...

It wasn't in the original manga trough.

Yeah I'm going with this too, it was a lame retcon to turn Mystic in a form like SSJ3

[pacz360]

Well there was either

1. A retcon after the Universe 6 saga which brought Base Goku and Vegeta out of God level and back to what they were at the start of the series. Similar to what the manga has done.

or

2. There was no retcon. Base Goku is still stronger than Super Saiyan God and he just starts slow/holds back/plays around with pretty much everyone.

Both are equally farfetched but I'd say #1 is more likely. He went from being so strong that SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't so much as budge the equivalent of Base Goku to a Buu saga level Super Saiyan Gohan giving it a good go against Super Saiyan Goku. Amongst several other things too like Krillin and Trunks giving him a bit of a push.

1 is impossible since base Goku recently fought a powered up Mr Buu.

So Nr. 2 is most likely. Basically Goku and Vegeta r just dicking around to much. That would also go hand in hand with Trunks' inability to sense god ki in base form prior to his ssj rage power up. He simply was at buu saga levels, while Goku who was above that in base simply regressed his power to that of Trunks so he can tell Goku how strong Goku Black is. Plus Vegeta also says in same episode that ssj3 is barely the tip of the iceberg in comparison to Goku's real power. And based on what Trunks told them after the power comparison, Goku and Vegeta thought it would be a breeze to stomp Black.

This^^^

[pacz360]

About Vegeta

When goku didn't train he was out of shape to the point of getting hurt by a bullet, they are going out of their way to show Vegeta doing nothing at all, he is literally changing diapers now..

How likely is it for an out of shape Vegeta or a less powerful Vegeta show up now

None... The whole rusty thing just screams badwriting considering goku has been fighting as if he hasn't missed a beat.