Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

I wonder if they'll explain why he's so strong, a better explanation than the anime at least.

So just in comparison to the manga continuity, Android 17 would be closest to Super Saiyan 2 Trunks then?

Obviously we'd need to see the full fight and know the context but I'm not getting a God level vibe from Android 17. I'd accept Super Saiyan 3 level as that would also fit with the anime. It would just mean Super Saiyan Blue Goku was suppressing himself down to his Super Saiyan 3 level, which is fine.

Then I suppose it'll be another month of waiting to see if they clarify anything on Gohan though hopefully the next episode can do that.

[HeroR]

I wonder if they'll explain why he's so strong, a better explanation than the anime at least.

So just in comparison to the manga continuity, Android 17 would be closest to Super Saiyan 2 Trunks then?

Obviously we'd need to see the full fight and know the context but I'm not getting a God level vibe from Android 17. I'd accept Super Saiyan 3 level as that would also fit with the anime. It would just mean Super Saiyan Blue Goku was suppressing himself down to his Super Saiyan 3 level, which is fine.

Then I suppose it'll be another month of waiting to see if they clarify anything on Gohan though hopefully the next episode can do that.

The scale of the manga isn’t the anime. And Goku would just used Super Saiyan 3 in the anime instead of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, which he said he had no intention of using.

[Bullza]

The scale of the manga isn’t the anime. And Goku would just used Super Saiyan 3 in the anime instead of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, which he said he had no intention of using.

They're not the exact same but they help to tie things together when things are left dubious in the one version.

He wouldn't necessarily have used Super Saiyan 3 either as he didn't use that form against Kale when he was only letting out a little more energy than when he was Super Saiyan Blue and if Android 17 is a little above that level then Goku wouldn't have used it anyway.

[HeroR]

The scale of the manga isn’t the anime. And Goku would just used Super Saiyan 3 in the anime instead of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, which he said he had no intention of using.

They're not the exact same but they help to tie things together when things are left dubious in the one version.

He wouldn't necessarily have used Super Saiyan 3 either as he didn't use that form against Kale when he was only letting out a little more energy than when he was Super Saiyan Blue and if Android 17 is a little above that level then Goku wouldn't have used it anyway.

Except 17’s strength isn’t really dubious in the anime.

And again, Goku outright said he didn’t want to used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against 17. Context here.

[mikey4111]

Can someone throw me all the reasons to believe 17 is SSB tier?

[ZombieVito]

Can someone throw me all the reasons to believe 17 is SSB tier?

He fought SSB Goku and wasn't going all out.

More importantly, a writer of Super said Gohan = 17 and the former was confirmed to rival SSB Goku by the narrator.

[TheSaiyanGod]

In fact, 17 is also level Goku SSJ3 in the anime.

When Goku turns into Blue, he says he did not pretend to use that form (he was forced). At that time, the only transformation available above SSJ3 was Blue himself (the God had not yet "returned").
So to force Goku to use a level above SSJ3, then 17 is at least at that level of power.

But to think that 17 is SSB level is absurd. Goku could have saved much more power than the 17 in the fight, and the android in no time showed to have that level of power

[Hugo Boss]

While I think it’s plausible to assume 17 is either at SS3 or SSB’s level, I don’t see neither the manga nor the anime setting any hard facts.

[gofishus]

Can someone throw me all the reasons to believe 17 is SSB tier?

He fought SSB Goku and wasn't going all out.

More importantly, a writer of Super said Gohan = 17 and the former was confirmed to rival SSB Goku by the narrator.

And its another asspull powerup too because 17 as far as we know - wasn't strong enough to fight Buu during the Buu saga. Super only takes place a few months after the Buu Saga. So you're telling me 17 trained for 6 months and went from Cell saga level to SSJB level? Who does he think he is? Frieza or Goku?

[JazzMazz]

Can someone throw me all the reasons to believe 17 is SSB tier?

He fought SSB Goku and wasn't going all out.

More importantly, a writer of Super said Gohan = 17 and the former was confirmed to rival SSB Goku by the narrator.

And its another asspull powerup too because 17 as far as we know - wasn't strong enough to fight Buu during the Buu saga. Super only takes place a few months after the Buu Saga. So you're telling me 17 trained for 6 months and went from Cell saga level to SSJB level? Who does he think he is? Frieza or Goku?

Given how much they've been using the Dragonballs, I think its safe to assume a few years would be a more accurate estimate.

[ZombieVito]

Can someone throw me all the reasons to believe 17 is SSB tier?

He fought SSB Goku and wasn't going all out.

More importantly, a writer of Super said Gohan = 17 and the former was confirmed to rival SSB Goku by the narrator.

And its another asspull powerup too because 17 as far as we know - wasn't strong enough to fight Buu during the Buu saga. Super only takes place a few months after the Buu Saga. So you're telling me 17 trained for 6 months and went from Cell saga level to SSJB level? Who does he think he is? Frieza or Goku?

It's been 5-6 years after Boo...

[majinwarman]

He fought SSB Goku and wasn't going all out.

More importantly, a writer of Super said Gohan = 17 and the former was confirmed to rival SSB Goku by the narrator.

And its another asspull powerup too because 17 as far as we know - wasn't strong enough to fight Buu during the Buu saga. Super only takes place a few months after the Buu Saga. So you're telling me 17 trained for 6 months and went from Cell saga level to SSJB level? Who does he think he is? Frieza or Goku?

It's been 5-6 years after Boo...

Wait, people still think Super takes place 6 months after Boo.

[Sora Saiyan]

While I think it’s plausible to assume 17 is either at SS3 or SSB’s level, I don’t see neither the manga nor the anime setting any hard facts.

SSJB level in the manga is too much of a jump. 17 looks to be in the ball park of FPSSJ2 Trunks, but we know how fast that fight ended once Goku showed off God, and placing 17 at SSJ3 tier may be a jump as it seems Goku was trying to gauge 17’s strength rather than trying to have a full on fight, also it seems that 17 was going for the kill.
Not to mention we’ve seen how SSJ3 Goku can’t do absolutely anything to a surpressed Toppo, Goku even states that his transformations are useless in that fight, and he was only trying to get Goku to transform again instead of going for the kill. The god forms are just on an entirely different level, which Goku states in the fight with Toppo.

So I would personally say it’s a safe bet to place 17 somewhere around SSJ3 tier.

[Bullza]

Super only takes place a few months after the Buu Saga. So you're telling me 17 trained for 6 months and went from Cell saga level to SSJB level? Who does he think he is? Frieza or Goku?

Well actually it's 6 years currently after the Buu saga.

But yes it would be odd that Android 17 would likely have been intended to be below Buu back then and in just 6 years he's now at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku where even Base Goku is above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

[JazzMazz]

Super only takes place a few months after the Buu Saga. So you're telling me 17 trained for 6 months and went from Cell saga level to SSJB level? Who does he think he is? Frieza or Goku?

Well actually it's 6 years currently after the Buu saga.

But yes it would be odd that Android 17 would likely have been intended to be below Buu back then and in just 6 years he's now at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku where even Base Goku is above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

The Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is not a thing in the manga, and nowhere is it implied that their base forms are anywhere near that strong.

[Black Hawk]

The Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is not a thing in the manga, and nowhere is it implied that their base forms are anywhere near that strong.

If you're referring to the Super manga, Gotenks does appear as a Super Saiyajin 3 in chapter three. He powers up in response to Beerus throwing a tantrum over pudding, only to have his wrist thrashed and then his entire body thrown into the ocean, where he defuses, though we do not see him defuse. Trunks and Goten-chan appear, having been helped out of the ocean by Tenshinhan, just before Vegeta does his "ORE NO BURUMAAA!!" thing.

If you're referring to the Potofu story, in which SSJ3 Gotenks appears, then you are correct; it is absent from the manga.

[JazzMazz]

The Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is not a thing in the manga, and nowhere is it implied that their base forms are anywhere near that strong.

If you're referring to the Super manga, Gotenks does appear as a Super Saiyajin 3 in chapter three. He powers up in response to Beerus throwing a tantrum over pudding, only to have his wrist thrashed and then his entire body thrown into the ocean, where he defuses, though we do not see him defuse. Trunks and Goten-chan appear, having been helped out of the ocean by Tenshinhan, just before Vegeta does his "ORE NO BURUMAAA!!" thing.

If you're referring to the Potofu story, in which SSJ3 Gotenks appears, then you are correct; it is absent from the manga.

Yeah, I was referring to that non-controversy controversy. I'm not saying they aren't as powerful as Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, I'm saying their base forms have never been shown in the manga to be that strong.

[Black Hawk]

Yeah, I was referring to that non-controversy controversy. I'm not saying they aren't as powerful as Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, I'm saying their base forms have never been shown in the manga to be that strong.

Kind of debatable, given that, in the Room of Spirit of Time, Gokū took an attack from SSJ Blue Vegeta without taking much, if any, damage. You are correct, though, in that the manga has never stated such about their base forms nor made it obvious.

[MisteryOne]

Yeah, I was referring to that non-controversy controversy. I'm not saying they aren't as powerful as Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, I'm saying their base forms have never been shown in the manga to be that strong.

Kind of debatable, given that, in the Room of Spirit of Time, Gokū took an attack from SSJ Blue Vegeta without taking much, if any, damage . You are correct, though, in that the manga has never stated such about their base forms nor made it obvious.

It actually happened in Beerus' planet, and it was a gag scene to introduce SSBlue name.

[TheUltimateNinja]

So is Goku vs Beerus not going to happen? Because if he masters UI in this tournament he can own Beerus any time he wants, right?