Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

The Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is not a thing in the manga, and nowhere is it implied that their base forms are anywhere near that strong.

True, they are only implied to be stronger than Supreme Kai in Base form.

But I like to mix and match the anime and manga where possible.

[Noah]

So is Goku vs Beerus not going to happen? Because if he masters UI in this tournament he can own Beerus any time he wants, right?

Another mere assumption, nothing implies that Goku may have surpassed Beerus already, but yes give him trouble with UI and nothing less.

[HeroR]

Super only takes place a few months after the Buu Saga. So you're telling me 17 trained for 6 months and went from Cell saga level to SSJB level? Who does he think he is? Frieza or Goku?

Well actually it's 6 years currently after the Buu saga.

But yes it would be odd that Android 17 would likely have been intended to be below Buu back then and in just 6 years he's now at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku where even Base Goku is above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

It's not really strange given how 17 acts. He could have taken care of Buu, but decide not to since if they were to die to Buu, then that was the way it was.

The Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is not a thing in the manga, and nowhere is it implied that their base forms are anywhere near that strong.

True, they are only implied to be stronger than Supreme Kai in Base form.

But I like to mix and match the anime and manga where possible.

You really shouldn't. I mean, it's fine for headcanon, but not for discussion since the manga and the anime have different takes on the same story. It's like mixing up Sailor Moon from the 90s with Crystal.

[saunasolmu]

So is Goku vs Beerus not going to happen? Because if he masters UI in this tournament he can own Beerus any time he wants, right?

Beerus' power has been retconned far above the cast so many times now that until there's a direct statement/showing that someone is definitely more powerful than Beerus I'm not going to believe it.

[Bullza]

You really shouldn't. I mean, it's fine for headcanon, but not for discussion since the manga and the anime have different takes on the same story. It's like mixing up Sailor Moon from the 90s with Crystal.

I just think it helps to clarify things, sort of a double confirmation of sorts.

Like how the manga showcased that Super Saiyan God was still a thing therefore meaning that Base/Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta along with Final Form Frieza, Cabba, Magetta and Frost were not at that level which was confusing people for a long time.

There was discussion on whether Trunks was really on Goku's level or was Goku just toying around with him and then the manga suggested that Trunks really is a match.

Then was the confusion on whether Toppo was equal to Blue Goku or Blue Goku in the anime, the manga cleared that up.

Was Base Goku's power retconned back to his Buu levels. The manga wouldn't suggest so.

And so on.

[ToshioWrites]

Maybe this might be more relevant to the manga thread but do any of you guys think that ss2 kefla will only be slightly stronger than CSSB Goku in the manga? Toyotaro really loves the God forms and I have doubts the base kefla > ssg will be in the manga or atleast not without a serious handicap ala "Vegeta was at less than 10% vs Hit"

[HeroR]

You really shouldn't. I mean, it's fine for headcanon, but not for discussion since the manga and the anime have different takes on the same story. It's like mixing up Sailor Moon from the 90s with Crystal.

I just think it helps to clarify things, sort of a double confirmation of sorts.

Like how the manga showcased that Super Saiyan God was still a thing therefore meaning that Base/Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta along with Final Form Frieza, Cabba, Magetta and Frost were not at that level which was confusing people for a long time.

There was discussion on whether Trunks was really on Goku's level or was Goku just toying around with him and then the manga suggested that Trunks really is a match.

Then was the confusion on whether Toppo was equal to Blue Goku or Blue Goku in the anime, the manga cleared that up.

Was Base Goku's power retconned back to his Buu levels. The manga wouldn't suggest so.

And so on.

That is a bunch of assumption based on the manga not doing Resurrection 'F' and people assuming Goku didn't fight Freeza in his base form like he did in the movie and the anime retelling.

Using the manga version of the Trunks fight is also flawed since the manga had Super Saiyan 2 Trunks equal with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, while in the anime, Super Saiyan 3 Goku stomped Super Saiyan 2. It was also far less of a 'fight' since Goku didn't do anything in the anime except block.

The manga doesn't clear this up since the scaling isn't the same. Goku was ready to used Kaioken against Toppo, while in the manga Goku didn't used Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Toppo won because Goku dropped his guard.

The whole 'Base Goku's power retconned back to his Buu levels' was always headcanon fans made up since they didn't want to accept how strong many character were or had become since nothing in the anime suggested a retcon happened other than fans trying to say that Piccolo was stronger than base form Goku.

Like I said, a lot of your mixing doesn't work between the two versions.

[ZombieVito]

The Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is not a thing in the manga, and nowhere is it implied that their base forms are anywhere near that strong.

True, they are only implied to be stronger than Supreme Kai in Base form.

But I like to mix and match the anime and manga where possible.

The funny thing is that even Champa got shook the same way Goku was by the roar.

[Bullza]

That is a bunch of assumption based on the manga not doing Resurrection 'F' and people assuming Goku didn't fight Freeza in his base form like he did in the movie and the anime retelling.

Regardless it resulted in much confusion with the anime due to people having the belief that Base Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God which meant that others would be as well which then caused confusion because people thought those characters shouldn't be that strong.

Then the manga came out and he used Super Saiyan God and then it started to become more clear because we knew they weren't then.

Using the manga version of the Trunks fight is also flawed since the manga had Super Saiyan 2 Trunks equal with Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Different forms may have been used but after the anime came out there were those who again took issue with Trunks power and so were saying that Goku didn't need to transform, only did so to match his form, was toying around etc.

The manga then made it clear that Trunks really was supposed to be a match for Goku and that it wasn't just him playing around. His match for a different form depending on the version but a match nonetheless.

Goku was ready to used Kaioken against Toppo, while in the manga Goku didn't used Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Toppo won because Goku dropped his guard.

In the anime the two were fighting somewhat evenly and then the ending made it unclear on whether they meant Toppo was equal to Goku as a Super Saiyan Blue or when he was using the Kaio-ken.

Then the manga seemed to suggest it could have gone either way and recently in the anime Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta was seemingly on the same kind of level so would appear, for the time being, that he was on the level of Blue and Blue Kaioken.

The whole 'Base Goku's power retconned back to his Buu levels' was always headcanon fans made up

Yes this is true but people did have that belief and it was causing confusion. Now the manga has again recently made clear that it's running with the idea that he's much more powerful than before which has cleared some of the confusion for the anime.

[HeroR]

That is a bunch of assumption based on the manga not doing Resurrection 'F' and people assuming Goku didn't fight Freeza in his base form like he did in the movie and the anime retelling.

Regardless it resulted in much confusion with the anime due to people having the belief that Base Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God which meant that others would be as well which then caused confusion because people thought those characters shouldn't be that strong.

Then the manga came out and he used Super Saiyan God and then it started to become more clear because we knew they weren't then.

Using the manga version of the Trunks fight is also flawed since the manga had Super Saiyan 2 Trunks equal with Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Different forms may have been used but after the anime came out there were those who again took issue with Trunks power and so were saying that Goku didn't need to transform, only did so to match his form, was toying around etc.

The manga then made it clear that Trunks really was supposed to be a match for Goku and that it wasn't just him playing around. His match for a different form depending on the version but a match nonetheless.

Goku was ready to used Kaioken against Toppo, while in the manga Goku didn't used Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Toppo won because Goku dropped his guard.

In the anime the two were fighting somewhat evenly and then the ending made it unclear on whether they meant Toppo was equal to Goku as a Super Saiyan Blue or when he was using the Kaio-ken.

Then the manga seemed to suggest it could have gone either way and recently in the anime Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta was seemingly on the same kind of level so would appear, for the time being, that he was on the level of Blue and Blue Kaioken.

The whole 'Base Goku's power retconned back to his Buu levels' was always headcanon fans made up

Yes this is true but people did have that belief and it was causing confusion. Now the manga has again recently made clear that it's running with the idea that he's much more powerful than before which has cleared some of the confusion for the anime.

The manga is the manga, the anime is the anime, and in the anime it was outright said that Goku got the power of godhood and punched Beerus' death ball in his base form. That is all that needed to be shown, but fans kept denying that Goku's base form could be that strong.

Trunks did nothing in the anime that put him on par with Goku since all Goku did was block, caught his fists, and them slammed him with Super Saiyan 3. It was the manga that put Trunks up to Goku's level somewhat. So him 'suppose' matching is only in the manga.

It wasn't even at all. Toppo never touched Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku while Goku stomped on his face. It wasn't until Toppo began to get somewhat serious that you can argued that that Toppo was any real threat to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. And Vegeta was too busy sensing Goku's fight with the U6 Saiyans to proper fight Toppo.

People who had a belief based on denial shouldn't be humored.

[Black Hawk]

It actually happened in Beerus' planet, and it was a gag scene to introduce SSBlue name.

Ah, you're right; Whis was watching them train. My mistake. Thank you for the correction!

[Hugo Boss]

If we have to be pedantic about it, whatever level people have these guys is headcannon in either the manga or the anime, since there is nothing conclusive about it. And I don’t believe they have to be exactly as powerful in the manga and in the anime. That’s up to the ones who are writing them to decide. This place is to discuss opinions.

[Bullza]

People who had a belief based on denial shouldn't be humored.

It wasn't as simple as that. It was more than thinking Base Goku was just strong, he was, by many people, thought of as being as strong as Super Saiyan God up to when he first turned back into a Super Saiyan against Frost.

That then confused matters greatly because people wondered if it meant all the characters as stronger or stronger than Base Goku were God level. Which created further confusion with Piccolo and Trunks.

It's what caused this whole two base theory to kick off.

Then the manga came around and Goku used Super Saiyan God again and as far as the manga was concerned all these other characters were far below that level as people thought they logically should be.

Which then made people realise that this is probably how it is also intended to be in the anime.

Another example is with Future Zamasu. There were those who thought he was Blue level because he tangled with Goku and then those who thought he was no real different from Present Zamasu. The manga then got to this point and made it very clear he isn't as strong as Trunks which the anime also sort of showed.

[supercat]

HeroR basically covered the key points.

If the tables were turned, and it was Goku who had the upperhand (even to the slightest, barely noticeable degree), I could totally envision some fans saying something along the lines of "17's below SSJ3-tier! Confirmed! At best SSJ2." Any feat, that helps things make "sense" while downplaying anyone who "shouldn't" have a had a massive power boost is apparently deemed far more credibly than a far less ambiguous feat that promotes the opposite. Why does a cartoon revolving around characters flying around and throwing magical attacks at each other even have to make sense?

Either way, tying in the manga with the anime for power scaling purposes makes little to no sense when there are so many other differences between the two. Personally, I prefer the power scale in the anime.

In my opinion 17 in the anime is probably comparable to any fighter who is on the low end of current SSB-tier; it seems reasonable enough for me to place him around RoF SSB Goku / Vegeta. With all things considered, he should be a good amount stronger than ritual form Goku, who presumably is worlds above SSJ Vegetto and Buuhan.

Future Zamasu in the anime has nothing to do with manga Zamasu when it comes to power scaling. The former has enough feats to rightfully earn a spot among other SSB-tier characters. That said, between Zamasu and 17, I'd say 17 has a slight advantage in power.

SSB Goku / Golden Frieza: 100,000
17: 85,000 - 90,000
Future Zamasu: 80,000
Ritual Form Goku (against Beerus): 30,000
SSJ3 Goku (current): 7,500
SSJ2 Goku (current): 1,875
SSJ1 Goku (current): 937
Base Goku (current): 18
PIccolo (current): 15-16
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga): 11
Buuhan: 4
Buutenks: 3
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga): 1-2
Super Buu: 0.5
Mr. Buu: Too weak to place on this scale

[Bullza]

Either way, tying in the manga with the anime for power scaling purposes makes little to no sense when there are so many other differences between the two.

I wouldn't say there way all that many drastic changes. The Battle of Gods and Universe 6 saga scales were pretty much the same between the anime and manga.

The Future Trunks saga was a little different with Trunks being closer to Super Saiyan 3 than in the anime. Goku and Merged Zamasu were equal in the manga whereas Zamasu was stronger in the anime but not enough that Goku wasn't able to give him a hard time the same.

It's more alike than its different.

Future Zamasu in the anime has nothing to do with manga Zamasu when it comes to power scaling. The former has enough feats to rightfully earn a spot among other SSB-tier characters.

Future Zamasu in the anime didn't do much of anything. He hardly even hit anybody, a couple of times he did was thanks to Goku Black. You can count the amount of hits he actually got in on one hand.

Had he not been immortal then Super Saiyan 2 Trunks would have killed him when he outmatched him and stabbed him. Then he fought him again and Trunks might have killed him then had Goku Black not intervened.

Which fits with the manga saying he's weaker than Trunks. There was a one minute period in the anime where he matched up against Super Saiyan Blue Goku and that was it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'd say that Bullza has the right idea to a degree.

I also utilize both mediums to an extent when powerscaling, but not for rigid identical levels. Instead, I use them concurrently to gauge where certain characters and/or forms are meant to fit in among each other. For example, everyone disagrees on how strong base Goku is, that's just a fact; we also always disagree on just how much of a difference there is between every form/character. However, by using the manga and anime's commonalities, we can gauge that, at the very least, his forms are in escalating power and speed, from SS to SSG to SSB.

[Green]

Toyotaro really needs to show a flashback of Freeza's fight because we can't properly gauge how strong Goku is, we just know he's a notch above the Kaioshin (how strong they may be is not known but I lowball them on Shin's level for simplicity).

That being said, I never got the impression he was absurdly strong like in the anime where he no sells SS3 Gotenks.

[majinwarman]

HeroR basically covered the key points.

If the tables were turned, and it was Goku who had the upperhand (even to the slightest, barely noticeable degree), I could totally envision some fans saying something along the lines of "17's below SSJ3-tier! Confirmed! At best SSJ2." Any feat, that helps things make "sense" while downplaying anyone who "shouldn't" have a had a massive power boost is apparently deemed far more credibly than a far less ambiguous feat that promotes the opposite. Why does a cartoon revolving around characters flying around and throwing magical attacks at each other even have to make sense?

Either way, tying in the manga with the anime for power scaling purposes makes little to no sense when there are so many other differences between the two. Personally, I prefer the power scale in the anime.

In my opinion 17 in the anime is probably comparable to any fighter who is on the low end of current SSB-tier; it seems reasonable enough for me to place him around RoF SSB Goku / Vegeta. With all things considered, he should be a good amount stronger than ritual form Goku, who presumably is worlds above SSJ Vegetto and Buuhan.

Future Zamasu in the anime has nothing to do with manga Zamasu when it comes to power scaling. The former has enough feats to rightfully earn a spot among other SSB-tier characters. That said, between Zamasu and 17, I'd say 17 has a slight advantage in power.

SSB Goku / Golden Frieza: 100,000
17: 85,000 - 90,000
Future Zamasu: 80,000
Ritual Form Goku (against Beerus): 30,000
SSJ3 Goku (current): 7,500
SSJ2 Goku (current): 1,875
SSJ1 Goku (current): 937
Base Goku (current): 18
PIccolo (current): 15-16
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga): 11
Buuhan: 4
Buutenks: 3
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga): 1-2
Super Buu: 0.5
Mr. Buu: Too weak to place on this scale

I have a quick question. Where would put current God Goku in that list?

[supercat]

Either way, tying in the manga with the anime for power scaling purposes makes little to no sense when there are so many other differences between the two.

I wouldn't say there way all that many drastic changes. The Battle of Gods and Universe 6 saga scales were pretty much the same between the anime and manga.

The Future Trunks saga was a little different with Trunks being closer to Super Saiyan 3 than in the anime. Goku and Merged Zamasu were equal in the manga whereas Zamasu was stronger in the anime but not enough that Goku wasn't able to give him a hard time the same.

It's more alike than its different.

Future Zamasu in the anime has nothing to do with manga Zamasu when it comes to power scaling. The former has enough feats to rightfully earn a spot among other SSB-tier characters.

Future Zamasu in the anime didn't do much of anything. He hardly even hit anybody, a couple of times he did was thanks to Goku Black. You can count the amount of hits he actually got in on one hand.

Had he not been immortal then Super Saiyan 2 Trunks would have killed him when he outmatched him and stabbed him. Then he fought him again and Trunks might have killed him then had Goku Black not intervened.

Which fits with the manga saying he's weaker than Trunks. There was a one minute period in the anime where he matched up against Super Saiyan Blue Goku and that was it.

Drastic or not, the fact that they depict different scenarios to begin with makes it difficult to utilize a synonymous power scale.

The episode where Trunks jabbed Zamasu was the same episode where Trunks was landing hits on Super Saiyan Rose Goku. So unless you're trying to say Super Saiyan Rose Goku is also SSJ2-tier... Not to mention, Zamasu has the tendency to wrecklessly tank hits and embrace his immortality.

Also, Zamasu clashing with Goku before knocking him down was a feat he pulled off alone. Goku Black had not yet stepped in at that point. Until we see someone like Buu pulling off a similar feat against SSB Goku, I see no reason to place Zamasu lower than SSB-tier.

HeroR basically covered the key points.

If the tables were turned, and it was Goku who had the upperhand (even to the slightest, barely noticeable degree), I could totally envision some fans saying something along the lines of "17's below SSJ3-tier! Confirmed! At best SSJ2." Any feat, that helps things make "sense" while downplaying anyone who "shouldn't" have a had a massive power boost is apparently deemed far more credibly than a far less ambiguous feat that promotes the opposite. Why does a cartoon revolving around characters flying around and throwing magical attacks at each other even have to make sense?

Either way, tying in the manga with the anime for power scaling purposes makes little to no sense when there are so many other differences between the two. Personally, I prefer the power scale in the anime.

In my opinion 17 in the anime is probably comparable to any fighter who is on the low end of current SSB-tier; it seems reasonable enough for me to place him around RoF SSB Goku / Vegeta. With all things considered, he should be a good amount stronger than ritual form Goku, who presumably is worlds above SSJ Vegetto and Buuhan.

Future Zamasu in the anime has nothing to do with manga Zamasu when it comes to power scaling. The former has enough feats to rightfully earn a spot among other SSB-tier characters. That said, between Zamasu and 17, I'd say 17 has a slight advantage in power.

SSB Goku / Golden Frieza: 100,000
17: 85,000 - 90,000
Future Zamasu: 80,000
Ritual Form Goku (against Beerus): 30,000
SSJ3 Goku (current): 7,500
SSJ2 Goku (current): 1,875
SSJ1 Goku (current): 937
Base Goku (current): 18
PIccolo (current): 15-16
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga): 11
Buuhan: 4
Buutenks: 3
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga): 1-2
Super Buu: 0.5
Mr. Buu: Too weak to place on this scale

I have a quick question. Where would put current God Goku in that list?

I would put him above Ritual Form Goku (against Beerus). Number-wise, if we're using the scale I used above, I would have current ritual form Goku around 40,000. 35,000 if I lower Ritual Form Goku (against Beerus) down to 25,000.

[majinwarman]

Either way, tying in the manga with the anime for power scaling purposes makes little to no sense when there are so many other differences between the two.

I wouldn't say there way all that many drastic changes. The Battle of Gods and Universe 6 saga scales were pretty much the same between the anime and manga.

The Future Trunks saga was a little different with Trunks being closer to Super Saiyan 3 than in the anime. Goku and Merged Zamasu were equal in the manga whereas Zamasu was stronger in the anime but not enough that Goku wasn't able to give him a hard time the same.

It's more alike than its different.

Future Zamasu in the anime has nothing to do with manga Zamasu when it comes to power scaling. The former has enough feats to rightfully earn a spot among other SSB-tier characters.

Future Zamasu in the anime didn't do much of anything. He hardly even hit anybody, a couple of times he did was thanks to Goku Black. You can count the amount of hits he actually got in on one hand.

Had he not been immortal then Super Saiyan 2 Trunks would have killed him when he outmatched him and stabbed him. Then he fought him again and Trunks might have killed him then had Goku Black not intervened.

Which fits with the manga saying he's weaker than Trunks. There was a one minute period in the anime where he matched up against Super Saiyan Blue Goku and that was it.

Drastic or not, the fact that they depict different scenarios to begin with makes it difficult to utilize a synonymous power scale.

The episode where Trunks jabbed Zamasu was the same episode where Trunks was landing hits on Super Saiyan Rose Goku. So unless you're trying to say Super Saiyan Rose Goku is also SSJ2-tier... Not to mention, Zamasu has the tendency to wrecklessly tank hits and embrace his immortality.

Also, Zamasu clashing with Goku before knocking him down was a feat he pulled off alone. Goku Black had not yet stepped in at that point. Until we see someone like Buu pulling off a similar feat against SSB Goku, I see no reason to place Zamasu lower than SSB-tier.

HeroR basically covered the key points.

If the tables were turned, and it was Goku who had the upperhand (even to the slightest, barely noticeable degree), I could totally envision some fans saying something along the lines of "17's below SSJ3-tier! Confirmed! At best SSJ2." Any feat, that helps things make "sense" while downplaying anyone who "shouldn't" have a had a massive power boost is apparently deemed far more credibly than a far less ambiguous feat that promotes the opposite. Why does a cartoon revolving around characters flying around and throwing magical attacks at each other even have to make sense?

Either way, tying in the manga with the anime for power scaling purposes makes little to no sense when there are so many other differences between the two. Personally, I prefer the power scale in the anime.

In my opinion 17 in the anime is probably comparable to any fighter who is on the low end of current SSB-tier; it seems reasonable enough for me to place him around RoF SSB Goku / Vegeta. With all things considered, he should be a good amount stronger than ritual form Goku, who presumably is worlds above SSJ Vegetto and Buuhan.

Future Zamasu in the anime has nothing to do with manga Zamasu when it comes to power scaling. The former has enough feats to rightfully earn a spot among other SSB-tier characters. That said, between Zamasu and 17, I'd say 17 has a slight advantage in power.

SSB Goku / Golden Frieza: 100,000
17: 85,000 - 90,000
Future Zamasu: 80,000
Ritual Form Goku (against Beerus): 30,000
SSJ3 Goku (current): 7,500
SSJ2 Goku (current): 1,875
SSJ1 Goku (current): 937
Base Goku (current): 18
PIccolo (current): 15-16
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga): 11
Buuhan: 4
Buutenks: 3
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga): 1-2
Super Buu: 0.5
Mr. Buu: Too weak to place on this scale

I have a quick question. Where would put current God Goku in that list?

I would put him above Ritual Form Goku (against Beerus). Number-wise, if we're using the scale I used above, I would have current ritual form Goku around 40,000. 35,000 if I lower Ritual Form Goku (against Beerus) down to 25,000.

So, you think that Future Zamasu is stronger than TOP God Goku. I don't if I can agree with you. I need a better explanation to why you think that.