Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:58 pm

Bullza wrote:So I didn't see anyone make any comments based on the newest manga chapter where yet so here's a few observations.

- Gohan sort of holds his own against the Trio De Dangers. Sorta like Goku did in the anime.

- Tien fires a Trip Beam directly as Frost that doesn't do squat. Considering the weaker Tien was able to repeatedly hold back Semi Perfect Cell then it shows Frost is much much stronger (though I'm sure we all knew that anyway).

- Piccolo seems to have greater trouble against weaker members of the Universe 9 team (well they were in the anime at least), not sure if that puts him below the Base Saiyans or not.

- Frost is stronger than everyone on the Universe 9 team. So he's above Piccolo and the Base Saiyans but he's below Super Saiyan level.

- Piccolo handily defeated Bergamo. In the anime Bergamo was on the same level as Base Goku.
He really wasn't since Goku took hits from Bergamo in base after he absorbed his energy and in the TOP, he easily beat up Bergamo and only had problems when he teamed up with his brothers.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:17 am

They were clearly at the same level back in the Zen Exhibition. Bergamo isn't like Android 19 either, he still took that barrage of hits from Goku with a mere grimace. An attack in return hurt Goku's arms.

They also fought on par during the ToP as well for the most part. They're on the same level with Goku having an edge.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:31 am

Bullza wrote: Piccolo seems to have greater trouble against weaker members of the Universe 9 team (well they were in the anime at least), not sure if that puts him below the Base Saiyans or not.
Piccolo was essentially equal with final form Frost in the manga U6 tournament. It was said Frost was stronger, so I believe it, but a lot of that qualification comes from Goku telling Piccolo he had no chance against him, which he only said because at the time he believed Frost had just beat him (Goku) with a single well-placed blow.

When they actually fought, Frost couldn't land a single attack and the fight was going to be won purely on the basis of Piccolo's stamina draining faster than his. Frost may hold a slight advantage on him power-wise but nothing of any significance.

Otoh, Frost's third form quickly gained an advantage on base Goku and forced him to turn SSJ, which dominated final form Frost. So we can pretty easily infer Piccolo is much stronger than the base saiyans, but decidedly weaker than SSJ1.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:22 pm

picc wrote:Piccolo was essentially equal with final form Frost in the manga U6 tournament. It was said Frost was stronger, so I believe it, but a lot of that qualification comes from Goku telling Piccolo he had no chance against him, which he only said because at the time he believed Frost had just beat him (Goku) with a single well-placed blow.

When they actually fought, Frost couldn't land a single attack and the fight was going to be won purely on the basis of Piccolo's stamina draining faster than his. Frost may hold a slight advantage on him power-wise but nothing of any significance.

Otoh, Frost's third form quickly gained an advantage on base Goku and forced him to turn SSJ, which dominated final form Frost. So we can pretty easily infer Piccolo is much stronger than the base saiyans, but decidedly weaker than SSJ1.
Piccolo did seem more evenly matched against Frost when compared to the anime version. At the same time there didn't seem to be as large a difference between Frost and Super Saiyan Goku either. Perhaps in the manga, Piccolo's strength is in between Base and Super Saiyan as it also was in Dragon Ball Z.

As for Goku getting beaten by Frost in his Third Form, I'd still say Goku was stronger. After he got knocked down he quickly hopped back up unharmed which shocked Frost and Goku said that it had just woken him up. He turned Super Saiyan so that Frost would bring his true power because he knew he was holding back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:18 pm

Base goku fought about evenly with first form frost, with a slight advantage, and then it was flat out said by the peanut gallery that 3rd form was stronger.

You'd need an extensive amount of assumptions to say he was still stronger than frost's third form when things suggesting the opposite are so neatly laid out for us.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:04 pm

Piccolo's in the same place he's been for decades now, above Base but fodder to any SS in the manga.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:06 pm

picc wrote:Base goku fought about evenly with first form frost, with a slight advantage, and then it was flat out said by the peanut gallery that 3rd form was stronger.

You'd need an extensive amount of assumptions to say he was still stronger than frost's third form when things suggesting the opposite are so neatly laid out for us.
He was hit in the face by a Death Beam and acted like it was nothing. Frost was even sweating.

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If he was on the losing side then it's probably because Goku wasn't fighting seriously still just as he didn't the whole time he fought Botamo or Frost in his first form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:30 am

I took Piccolo having trouble with Hyssop as simply Vegeta vs Magetta round 2.

Hyssop has an incredible endurance thanks to his body type and he wasn't fighting alone. Piccolo also wasn't fighting all out.

The fact Piccolo easily beat Bergamo should put him very well on the same tier as the anime: Way ahead of the base Saiyans.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:56 am

ZombieVito wrote:The fact Piccolo easily beat Bergamo should put him very well on the same tier as the anime: Way ahead of the base Saiyans.
Curiously, I have Piccolo in the same ballpark as Base Gohan in both. They fight equally the Namekians for a while in the anime. And both struggle against the Trio De Dangers in the manga. Given that Gohan was doing very well on his own, I think he could beat Bergamo as easily as Piccolo did.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:33 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:The fact Piccolo easily beat Bergamo should put him very well on the same tier as the anime: Way ahead of the base Saiyans.
Curiously, I have Piccolo in the same ballpark as Base Gohan in both. They fight equally the Namekians for a while in the anime. And both struggle against the Trio De Dangers in the manga. Given that Gohan was doing very well on his own, I think he could beat Bergamo as easily as Piccolo did.
Since the Namekians weren't fighting seriously I wouldn't use the fight to determine that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:49 pm

It's worth noting that Piccolo was able to harm Pirina with a non-fully charged Makankosappo (after they acclimated to their true strength IIRC) and also have Saonel acknowledge his power by the end of the fight. So even though the U6 Namekians are significantly stronger than Piccolo individually, the gap between them can't be as ridiculous as people tend to think.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:51 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:The fact Piccolo easily beat Bergamo should put him very well on the same tier as the anime: Way ahead of the base Saiyans.
Curiously, I have Piccolo in the same ballpark as Base Gohan in both. They fight equally the Namekians for a while in the anime. And both struggle against the Trio De Dangers in the manga. Given that Gohan was doing very well on his own, I think he could beat Bergamo as easily as Piccolo did.
Since the Namekians weren't fighting seriously I wouldn't use the fight to determine that.
Looks like they needed a certain time to stabilize the merged power in their bodies. So, before then, I believe they saved that power and used their own until the decisive moment.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:21 am

Marlowe89 wrote:It's worth noting that Piccolo was able to harm Pirina with a non-fully charged Makankosappo (after they acclimated to their true strength IIRC) and also have Saonel acknowledge his power by the end of the fight. So even though the U6 Namekians are significantly stronger than Piccolo individually, the gap between them can't be as ridiculous as people tend to think.
That's also why I have Piccolo at SS2 tier. It makes his Makankosappo feat less ridiculous and Gohan did fight Goku very evenly in E75 so it fits.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:10 am

Didn't one of the writers say Piccolo was about as strong as Frost?

Frost being weaker than Final Form Frieza. Final Form Frieza maybe being on par with the Base Saiyans. Which would make Piccolo below the Base Saiyans.

Or if Piccolo is Super Saiyan 2 level it would put Final Form Frieza even higher but he isn't because he transformed against Super Saiyan 2 Cabba.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Myzt0gun » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:39 am

Bullza wrote:So I didn't see anyone make any comments based on the newest manga chapter where yet so here's a few observations.

- Gohan sort of holds his own against the Trio De Dangers. Sorta like Goku did in the anime.

- Tien fires a Trip Beam directly as Frost that doesn't do squat. Considering the weaker Tien was able to repeatedly hold back Semi Perfect Cell then it shows Frost is much much stronger (though I'm sure we all knew that anyway).

- Piccolo seems to have greater trouble against weaker members of the Universe 9 team (well they were in the anime at least), not sure if that puts him below the Base Saiyans or not.

- Frost is stronger than everyone on the Universe 9 team. So he's above Piccolo and the Base Saiyans but he's below Super Saiyan level.

- Piccolo handily defeated Bergamo. In the anime Bergamo was on the same level as Base Goku.
The Manga did a great job portraying the human's powerlevel, though i wished Krillin, Roshi and Tien eliminated someone by teaming up using many techniques

Well Piccolo is basically against all U9 fighters except Trio De Dangers, you can see him fighting hyssop, sorrel and rosselle, while hopp, comfrey are nearby as shown when roselle almost fell.

Unlike most fighters in the beginning of the T.o.P. Frost has fought like there's no tomorrow, I will put him above all members of U9 except Basil and Bergamo (even without ability from anime, manga feats only) and Piccolo might be stronger than Bergamo (Base) but neither of them has gone fullpower, greatly hinted when the Trio De Dangers retreated from frost cause unlike him they were planning to reserve strength

AT Full Power: Gohan > Bergamo(w/ power absorption) > Piccolo >or= Bergamo(Base) >or = Frost > Basil > Lavender >or= Comfrey

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:40 am

Bullza wrote:Didn't one of the writers say Piccolo was about as strong as Frost?
Toshio said Frost was stronger than Piccolo, though that was just his opinion. For instance, Frost is still weaker than SS Goku in the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:55 am

Bullza wrote:but he isn't because he transformed against Super Saiyan 2 Cabba.
That one's questionable because Frieza said he wasted "excess stamina on trash" right afterwards. Looking at his Final Form's feats and statements concerning Dyspo (and really throughout the whole tournament), he's gotta be way above the base Saiyans.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Raphael_Z » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:48 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Piccolo's in the same place he's been for decades now, above Base but fodder to any SS in the manga.
IIRC, the last significant power up that Piccolo got was when he absorbed Kami which made him stronger than A17 and A18 who were in fact stronger than SSJ1 Goku, Trunks and Vegeta. For about 5 minutes, Piccolo was the strongest Z-Warrior until Vegeta emerged out of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber with his improved SSJ1.

Of course, the power level of Goku and Vegeta's SSJ1 form in the TOP is WAY above their SSJ1 forms in the Cell Saga. Still, I like to think that TOP Piccolo and TOP A18 are at least TOP SSJ1 level because otherwise they are basically trash and the gap between them and the next two fighters in terms of power levels (Ultimate Gohan and A17) would be insanely big.

The question is: in the TOP, who is stronger? Piccolo or A18?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:12 pm

Raphael_Z wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Piccolo's in the same place he's been for decades now, above Base but fodder to any SS in the manga.
IIRC, the last significant power up that Piccolo got was when he absorbed Kami which made him stronger than A17 and A18 who were in fact stronger than SSJ1 Goku, Trunks and Vegeta. For about 5 minutes, Piccolo was the strongest Z-Warrior until Vegeta emerged out of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber with his improved SSJ1.

Of course, the power level of Goku and Vegeta's SSJ1 form in the TOP is WAY above their SSJ1 forms in the Cell Saga. Still, I like to think that TOP Piccolo and TOP A18 are at least TOP SSJ1 level because otherwise they are basically trash and the gap between them and the next two fighters in terms of power levels (Ultimate Gohan and A17) would be insanely big.

The question is: in the TOP, who is stronger? Piccolo or A18?
I am confused at this to be honest. Obviously Piccolo is much stronger than 18 that much has been made abundantly clear. 18 has been fighting with difficulty against opponents that Krillin had been struggling with. Meanwhile Piccolo has been competing with Frost and the bigger hitters of Universe 6 like the Namekians. Goku and Vegeta's SSJ1 forms are astronomically more powerful than in the Cell saga and I don't believe Piccolo has closed the gap. I think at the very best he is on par with their base forms which still might be a stretch. However, Vegeta and Goku's base is stronger than Buuhan at this point so Piccolo being around that level is extremely respectable.

as far as comparing Piccolo to Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 Piccolo is complete trash but that is ok. He still is a contributing member on the team and is fairly powerful as far as the grand scheme of the tournament goes.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Champa The Destroyer » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:46 pm

So is it safe to say that MUI Goku is above Vegito Blue?

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