Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

Dyspo and Toppo confirmed this UI Goku was stronger and more polished than the current UI Goku.

That doesn't confirm or deny anything.

All we knew is that Kefla was stronger than Goku's best at some point.

Piccolo was talking about UI Goku and Kefla not about KKBlue Goku...

Piccolo: "what are they [UI Goku and Kefla]. If one powers up [Ui Goku], the other [Kefla] is incited to increasing their power too."
Gohan: "You mean the change in dad is drawing out Kefla's power more."
Piccolo: "Yeah. Kefla is definitely growing. Her power is unbelievable."

Piccolo: "This power...It might even surpass Son's earlier level!"
Gohan: "No way."
Piccolo: "But if Kefla's power up could FURTHER draw out [UI Goku's power] Son's power..."

If Piccolo was talking about Kefla being just stronger than KKBlue Goku, there wouldn't be any need for Piccolo to state UI Goku needing his power to be drawn out even more.

According to Herms, Piccolo said that Kefla SSJ2 overcame the power used '' a little long ago '' by Goku.

The last time Goku fought and released his power was on EP 115 with Blue KK, then it is likely that Piccolo was referring to this moment since it was the most recent (and also was a little time ago)

Not to mention that when Kefla turned into SSJ2, told Goku UI release more power again and he said he did not need. So it would be strange the speech of the Piccolo to refer to UI Goku

[ZombieVito]

Just to pose the question, does anyone think that piccolo wasn't stronger than ssj Gohan during their training?

Another power level oddity.

Piccolo with weights was weaker than Base Gohan in the Resurrection F saga. Then equal to him in the Universe 6 saga.

Then it would appear he got about hundred times stronger in a year to be a match for his Super Saiyan 2.

But then yeah after that Base Gohan was able to somewhat handle his attack, which I could have just accepted as Piccolo holding back because he wasn't trying to kill him but now we do have Base Gohan holding his own (infact he's doing better than Piccolo), in the Namek fight.

So depending on how it all turns out, maybe Piccolo actually is closer to Base level after all, we'll see.

Maybe attaining Ultimate again boosted Gohan's base to surpass his SS2.

[Miracles]

Again, its pretty vague, since both fighters, as you mentioned, were still powering up and Goku still wasn't at his fullest ebb, thats why he wasn't able to maintain UI for that long.

It's not vague when Piccolo stated "but if" UI Son can draw out more power in his current version.
To match Kefla's current power up due to her being greater than his former UI version.

That doesn't confirm or deny anything.

All we knew is that Kefla was stronger than Goku's best at some point.

Piccolo was talking about UI Goku and Kefla not about KKBlue Goku...

Piccolo: "what are they [UI Goku and Kefla]. If one powers up [Ui Goku], the other [Kefla] is incited to increasing their power too."
Gohan: "You mean the change in dad is drawing out Kefla's power more."
Piccolo: "Yeah. Kefla is definitely growing. Her power is unbelievable."

Piccolo: "This power...It might even surpass Son's earlier level!"
Gohan: "No way."
Piccolo: "But if Kefla's power up could FURTHER draw out [UI Goku's power] Son's power..."

If Piccolo was talking about Kefla being just stronger than KKBlue Goku, there wouldn't be any need for Piccolo to state UI Goku needing his power to be drawn out even more.

According to Herms, Piccolo said that Kefla SSJ2 overcame the power used '' a little long ago '' by Goku.

The last time Goku fought and released his power was on EP 115 with Blue KK, then it is likely that Piccolo was referring to this moment since it was the most recent (and also was a little time ago)

Not to mention that when Kefla turned into SSJ2, told Goku UI release more power again and he said he did not need. So it would be strange the speech of the Piccolo to refer to UI Goku

"A little long ago" was Jiren vs Goku. This tournament is in the minutes. Consider the fact that Piccolo stated UI Goku needed to respond to Kefla's current power up by drawing more power.
If Piccolo was referring to KKBlue Goku, he wouldn't say that Goku needs to draw out more power in UI to match Kefla's current power up.

[dragon boss z]

I think only really the high ranking Freeza soldiers like Vegeta, Cui, Zarbon, Dodoria and the Ginyu force could all destroy a planet if they so desired(even though they would try to avoid it, since it would be bad for business), the difference between Freeza and all his other henchmen which can destroy planets, is that he could do it, with the energy produced from one finger, and do so effortlessly.

Those are the characters I were talking about. Fore example Recoome's eraser gun only blew away the ground and warped the planet and this level of destruction terrified Krillin with a power a power level of over 10,000 at the time.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku makes fun of Frieza because he can destroy a planet but not a single person. this insult absolutely makes no sense if the past 10 guys Goku beat could destroy a planet but couldn't beat a single person as well.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Frieza reminds a guy hundreds of times stronger than saiyan saga Vegeta and his other henchmen that he could destroy the planet

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Piccolo says Frieza has enough energy to destroy the planet if he wants, implying he, gohan, and Krillin couldn't, all 3 of which should be around planet level if you go off saiyan saga Vegeta being planet level.

King Cold implies that they can't casually one shot some large planets

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And in xenoverse 2 one of Dadoria's dialog is him saying "Frieza and Cooler are so strong they can destroy entire planets" implying the other members of their army can't.

I would say saiyan saga Vegeta and character like the Ginyu force might be able to destroy small planets by attacking the core, but that's about it. Frieza and King Cold are probably the weakest characters who can out right vaporize the entire planet in one attack and still have energy to spare.

[Bullza]

Maybe attaining Ultimate again boosted Gohan's base to surpass his SS2.

Well it would explain why it allowed him to match Base Goku at least.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Again, its pretty vague, since both fighters, as you mentioned, were still powering up and Goku still wasn't at his fullest ebb, thats why he wasn't able to maintain UI for that long.

It's not vague when Piccolo stated but if UI Son can draw out more power in his current version to match Kefla's current power up due to her being greater than his former UI version.

Piccolo was talking about UI Goku and Kefla not about KKBlue Goku...

Piccolo: "what are they [UI Goku and Kefla]. If one powers up [Ui Goku], the other [Kefla] is incited to increasing their power too."
Gohan: "You mean the change in dad is drawing out Kefla's power more."
Piccolo: "Yeah. Kefla is definitely growing. Her power is unbelievable."

Piccolo: "This power...It might even surpass Son's earlier level!"
Gohan: "No way."
Piccolo: "But if Kefla's power up could FURTHER draw out [UI Goku's power] Son's power..."

If Piccolo was talking about Kefla being just stronger than KKBlue Goku, there wouldn't be any need for Piccolo to state UI Goku needing his power to be drawn out even more.

According to Herms, Piccolo said that Kefla SSJ2 overcame the power used '' a little long ago '' by Goku.

The last time Goku fought and released his power was on EP 115 with Blue KK, then it is likely that Piccolo was referring to this moment since it was the most recent (and also was a little time ago)

Not to mention that when Kefla turned into SSJ2, told Goku UI release more power again and he said he did not need. So it would be strange the speech of the Piccolo to refer to UI Goku

"A little long ago" was Jiren vs Goku. This tournament is in the minutes. Consider the fact that Piccolo stated UI Goku needed to respond to Kefla's current power up by drawing more power.
If Piccolo was referring to KKBlue Goku, he wouldn't say that Goku needs to draw out more power in UI to match Kefla's current power up.

Piccolo did not say that Goku needed to release more power with the UI. He said that both Goku and Kefla were constantly getting more powerful, and that Kefla's power increase could make Goku release even more power

But that was not necessary, Kefla told Goku to release more power and he said he did not need to (and still managed to completely dominate her).

Yes, both the fight against Jiren and the fight against Kefla happened just a little time ago. But the fight against Kefla was the latest. If Piccolo wanted to refer to a fight that was going on even before that, he would have specified Goku VS Jiren. But it is far more plausible to have referred to a fight that was already happening, after all the context of the scene was about the clash between Goku and Kefla.

If Kefla had surpassed UI Goku (of fighting Jiren), Vegeta would have been impressed by her power. But he was only surprised by Goku who not only could move unconsciously, but had become much more powerful

[Miracles]

Again, its pretty vague, since both fighters, as you mentioned, were still powering up and Goku still wasn't at his fullest ebb, thats why he wasn't able to maintain UI for that long.

It's not vague when Piccolo stated but if UI Son can draw out more power in his current version to match Kefla's current power up due to her being greater than his former UI version.

According to Herms, Piccolo said that Kefla SSJ2 overcame the power used '' a little long ago '' by Goku.

The last time Goku fought and released his power was on EP 115 with Blue KK, then it is likely that Piccolo was referring to this moment since it was the most recent (and also was a little time ago)

Not to mention that when Kefla turned into SSJ2, told Goku UI release more power again and he said he did not need. So it would be strange the speech of the Piccolo to refer to UI Goku

"A little long ago" was Jiren vs Goku. This tournament is in the minutes. Consider the fact that Piccolo stated UI Goku needed to respond to Kefla's current power up by drawing more power.
If Piccolo was referring to KKBlue Goku, he wouldn't say that Goku needs to draw out more power in UI to match Kefla's current power up.

Piccolo did not say that Goku needed to release more power with the UI. He said that both Goku and Kefla were constantly getting more powerful, and that Kefla's power increase could make Goku release even more power

But that was not necessary, Kefla told Goku to release more power and he said he did not need to (and still managed to completely dominate her).

Yes, both the fight against Jiren and the fight against Kefla happened just a little time ago. But the fight against Kefla was the latest. If Piccolo wanted to refer to a fight that was going on even before that, he would have specified Goku VS Jiren. But it is far more plausible to have referred to a fight that was already happening, after all the context of the scene was about the clash between Goku and Kefla.

If Kefla had surpassed UI Goku (of fighting Jiren), Vegeta would have been impressed by her power. But he was only surprised by Goku who not only could move unconsciously, but had become much more powerful

The context from Piccolo states that Goku's power up forced Kefla to power up. Then he states how great Kefla's power is and says it may have passed Goku's former level. Then he says, "BUT IF" Kefla's power up could draw Goku's power out FURTHER. This means Goku was at a disadvantage in his former UI level "BUT" Piccolo says that could change if Goku could draw more power by being incited by Keflas power up! This proves Piccolo wasn't talking about BlueKK Goku cause there would be no need for him to increase his power if Kefla was only stronger than KK Blue Goku

[ZombieVito]

Maybe attaining Ultimate again boosted Gohan's base to surpass his SS2.

Well it would explain why it allowed him to match Base Goku at least.

We still don't know how exactly does Ultimate work.

Maybe the bang just indicates he's all 100% of full power and he doesn't have a base. That would explain why Piccolo was shocked that Gohan without the bang was defeated easily by Beerus.

[Hugo Boss]

It's not vague when Piccolo stated but if UI Son can draw out more power in his current version to match Kefla's current power up due to her being greater than his former UI version.


"A little long ago" was Jiren vs Goku. This tournament is in the minutes. Consider the fact that Piccolo stated UI Goku needed to respond to Kefla's current power up by drawing more power.
If Piccolo was referring to KKBlue Goku, he wouldn't say that Goku needs to draw out more power in UI to match Kefla's current power up.

Piccolo did not say that Goku needed to release more power with the UI. He said that both Goku and Kefla were constantly getting more powerful, and that Kefla's power increase could make Goku release even more power

But that was not necessary, Kefla told Goku to release more power and he said he did not need to (and still managed to completely dominate her).

Yes, both the fight against Jiren and the fight against Kefla happened just a little time ago. But the fight against Kefla was the latest. If Piccolo wanted to refer to a fight that was going on even before that, he would have specified Goku VS Jiren. But it is far more plausible to have referred to a fight that was already happening, after all the context of the scene was about the clash between Goku and Kefla.

If Kefla had surpassed UI Goku (of fighting Jiren), Vegeta would have been impressed by her power. But he was only surprised by Goku who not only could move unconsciously, but had become much more powerful

The context from Piccolo states that Goku's power up forced Kefla to power up. Then he states how great Kefla's power is and says it may have passed Goku's former level. Then he says, "BUT IF" Kefla's power up could draw Goku's power out FURTHER. This means Goku was at a disadvantage in his former UI level "BUT" Piccolo says that could change if Goku could draw more power by being incited by Keflas power up! This proves Piccolo wasn't talking about BlueKK Goku cause there would be no need for him to increase his power if Kefla was only stronger than KK Blue Goku

Piccolo is saying in other words that if Kefla’s power up from before (Super Saiyan) could draw out Goku’s power (Ultra Instinct), then SS2 Kafla can possibly make Goku even more powerful (which wasn’t necessary). It isn’t implied Kafla’s power surpassed Ultra Instinct in any way. The idea here is just to talk about the neverending circle of power-ups that Goku and Kafla were demonstrating through the whole fight and to be fair who read the spoilers beforehand already knew this.

[JazzMazz]

I think only really the high ranking Freeza soldiers like Vegeta, Cui, Zarbon, Dodoria and the Ginyu force could all destroy a planet if they so desired(even though they would try to avoid it, since it would be bad for business), the difference between Freeza and all his other henchmen which can destroy planets, is that he could do it, with the energy produced from one finger, and do so effortlessly.

Those are the characters I were talking about. Fore example Recoome's eraser gun only blew away the ground and warped the planet and this level of destruction terrified Krillin with a power a power level of over 10,000 at the time.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku makes fun of Frieza because he can destroy a planet but not a single person. this insult absolutely makes no sense if the past 10 guys Goku beat could destroy a planet but couldn't beat a single person as well.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Frieza reminds a guy hundreds of times stronger than saiyan saga Vegeta and his other henchmen that he could destroy the planet

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Piccolo says Frieza has enough energy to destroy the planet if he wants, implying he, gohan, and Krillin couldn't, all 3 of which should be around planet level if you go off saiyan saga Vegeta being planet level.

King Cold implies that they can't casually one shot some large planets

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And in xenoverse 2 one of Dadoria's dialog is him saying "Frieza and Cooler are so strong they can destroy entire planets" implying the other members of their army can't.

I would say saiyan saga Vegeta and character like the Ginyu force might be able to destroy small planets by attacking the core, but that's about it. Frieza and King Cold are probably the weakest characters who can out right vaporize the entire planet in one attack and still have energy to spare.

First off, using xenoverse 2 dialogue really doesn't mean anything since its from non-canon material.

Secondly, I do think they can destroy planets, or at the very least the surface of a planet quite easily. I think everyone fears Freeza because he can do it again, in his first form, effortlessly. Unlike his minions, who need to output a lot of power and effort to perform such a feat.
EDIT: I'm pretty sure there is an official source somewhere where Vegeta shits his pants watching Freeza effortlessly blow up a planet with his finger. I can't remember or find it though.

[pacz360]

I’m laughing at the astronomy comparisons because when I first brought up the absurdity Back in BoGs I was told that Toriyamas universe doesn’t work like ours and that universes were likely closer to galaxies. Which I accepted as it made sense. Now especially with the 28 mortal planets it really makes a ton more sense for Toriyamas scale of universes to be much smaller but now we seem to be reversing course in order to make Keflas feat look bigger while also having everyone who has fought Goku since being SSG be universe busters

Explain Tori never stated the db universe was small

[dragon boss z]

First off, using xenoverse 2 dialogue really doesn't mean anything since its from non-canon material.

I know, but I just thought it was worth noting as it shows whoever wrote that felt that Frieza and Cooler were the only planet busters and the dialog was approved.

Secondly, I do think they can destroy planets, or at the very least the surface of a planet quite easily.

Ya it depends on what you mean by destroy. I agree they could probably destroy the surface, and when I type in destroyed planet on google this is what I get

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

while when ever it is stated how Frieza can bust a planet it comes with the word entire. I didn't actually realize this before but in all 3 scans I posted entire came in front every single time. So going from that I would assume that characters like saiyan saga Vegeta and the Ginyu force are strong enough to wreck/destroy a planet with a full power attack, but Frieza is the only one who can destroy the entire planet in one shot with no part of it remaining.
Another thing that backs this up is Vegeta says Goku can save himself if he dodges his galic gun that would "destroy" the earth, which doesn't make sense if the whole thing vaporizes since Goku can't survive in space so that wouldn't' save him, and that would also mean Vegeta is killing himself and he didn't even try to use his great ape form yet so that doesn't make sense character wise. So it would make more sense if Vegeta meant destroy as in the planet would be worthless when the attack is through with it more than the whole thing would be vaporized. So I would definitely call him a planetary threat, but not someone who can vaporize the entire thing instantly in one attack.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Here's a theory that might pan out, depending on how next episode goes: Android 18 is WAY stronger than we all think she is. We've seen recently that a difference of 100 times over can be made up through pure skill and technique with base Goku vs SS2 Caulifla, so who's to say the same principal didn't apply to scenes like 18 sparring with Krillin and fighting alongside him?

Obviously 17 is still stronger than her, but 18 could still potentially be within the realm of the Super Saiyan 2 Saiyans, given that the only real limit we know she has (that is measurably below god tier) is that she was speed-blitzed by Katopesla, who was using a form that multiplied his speed 300 times over.

Finally, if 17 can get as strong as a Super Saiyan God by training on an island and killing poachers, 18 can get a ton stronger too by sparring with her husband.

[Kenneth La Torre]

One thing that was made clear in this episode full of very vauge statements, was that jiren was HEAVILY suppressed against UI Goku. Not only did UI goku get more powerful, but as stated by toppo, he will continue to grow. Pretty sure the final battle between jiren will have goku perfected his UI Form.

[Bullza]

Pretty sure the final battle between jiren will have goku perfected his UI Form.

Oh yeah he'll probably master it in time for the final battle.

I wonder if that's what this is supposed to be.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Pretty sure the final battle between jiren will have goku perfected his UI Form.

Oh yeah he'll probably master it in time for the final battle.

I wonder if that's what this is supposed to be.

Most likely. I believe the blue aura signifies defense, and red offense.

[apex_pretador]

I think that I have figured out Potara Fusion, SSG-SSB-UI, Vegetto, Zamasu and Beerus

[Sora Saiyan]

Btw Planet Namek, Frieza, and Vegeta are shown to be in different quadrants than earth. They are on an opposite side to earth on a DB cosmos map

The dragon ball map isn't drawn to scale. And the saiyans seem to be in the same galaxy considering they are under the jurisdiction of the galactic patrol. Also pretty sure King Kai said namek was in his quadrant.

It's not until the Freeza arc that Kaio introduces himself to the Great Elder as the "Kaio of the North Galaxy". Then a bit later we get the quote in question where he explains that Planet Namek is outside his administrative area and therefore there's nothing he can do to help them sort out the mess bringing Kuririn and Goku back to life. The implication being that if Namek had been in the North Galaxy, then he could have done something about the two automatically reviving in the empty space where Namek had been (the point is a little obscured in Viz, with the explanation being shortened so that it's never specified that the location of Namek is what's outside Kaio's jurisdiction).

Also I didn’t know Jaco said planet Vegeta was under his jurisdiction. Which is strange considering Vegeta is further out than namek on the cosmos map in comparison to earth.

[majinwarman]

Pretty sure the final battle between jiren will have goku perfected his UI Form.

Oh yeah he'll probably master it in time for the final battle.

I wonder if that's what this is supposed to be.

Most likely. I believe the blue aura signifies defense, and red offense.

That could be true.

[majinwarman]

Piccolo did not say that Goku needed to release more power with the UI. He said that both Goku and Kefla were constantly getting more powerful, and that Kefla's power increase could make Goku release even more power

But that was not necessary, Kefla told Goku to release more power and he said he did not need to (and still managed to completely dominate her).

Yes, both the fight against Jiren and the fight against Kefla happened just a little time ago. But the fight against Kefla was the latest. If Piccolo wanted to refer to a fight that was going on even before that, he would have specified Goku VS Jiren. But it is far more plausible to have referred to a fight that was already happening, after all the context of the scene was about the clash between Goku and Kefla.

If Kefla had surpassed UI Goku (of fighting Jiren), Vegeta would have been impressed by her power. But he was only surprised by Goku who not only could move unconsciously, but had become much more powerful

The context from Piccolo states that Goku's power up forced Kefla to power up. Then he states how great Kefla's power is and says it may have passed Goku's former level. Then he says, "BUT IF" Kefla's power up could draw Goku's power out FURTHER. This means Goku was at a disadvantage in his former UI level "BUT" Piccolo says that could change if Goku could draw more power by being incited by Keflas power up! This proves Piccolo wasn't talking about BlueKK Goku cause there would be no need for him to increase his power if Kefla was only stronger than KK Blue Goku

Piccolo is saying in other words that if Kefla’s power up from before (Super Saiyan) could draw out Goku’s power (Ultra Instinct), then SS2 Kafla can possibly make Goku even more powerful (which wasn’t necessary). It isn’t implied Kafla’s power surpassed Ultra Instinct in any way. The idea here is just to talk about the neverending circle of power-ups that Goku and Kafla were demonstrating through the whole fight and to be fair who read the spoilers beforehand already knew this.

I think that was what Piccolo was saying but we didn't understand due to different translations of the same words. I personally believe that Piccolo meant that Kelfa could help bring out more UI Goku's power out. But, as we saw in the episode, Goku handled her with her only cutting a piece of his hair and gazing his elbow.