Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

I forgot that Goku Black said that Goku would come back stronger. It would seem like he kind of did but he only had 12 hours and he spent that time mastering the Mafuba.

In that time Vegeta trained hard for six months so he should have a good head start over Goku but it's never portrayed or mentioned to be that way.

Of course in the manga it was done differently so Vegeta just learned how to switch between the two forms on the fly so even with that six months of extra training he wasn't may stronger than Goku but in the anime it wasn't like that.

It should be Vegeta > Goku Black > Goku.

[RecolorSaiyan]

I forgot that Goku Black said that Goku would come back stronger. It would seem like he kind of did but he only had 12 hours and he spent that time mastering the Mafuba.

In that time Vegeta trained hard for six months so he should have a good head start over Goku but it's never portrayed or mentioned to be that way.

Of course in the manga it was done differently so Vegeta just learned how to switch between the two forms on the fly so even with that six months of extra training he wasn't may stronger than Goku but in the anime it wasn't like that.

It should be Vegeta > Goku Black > Goku.

It was (in just ssb) from episode 63 until the start of 66 , Then Goku was pushed above once again because reasons

[Miracles]

So today's question, one that I know has caused confusion before...how is it that Super Saiyan Blue Goku would seem to be just as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at the end of the Future Trunks saga?

Goku raged and had a power up that allowed him to beat up Goku Black. Goku Black had a Zenkai and had a power up that allowed him to beat up Goku. Vegeta trained in the Rosat and had a power up that allowed him to beat up Goku Black.

Yet Goku was every bit as strong as Vegeta even though he should be behind and he didn't do any training except learn the Mafuba.

Uhm, Goku didn't get a rage boost, cause i don't think it was stated.

Black did say Goku would come back stronger just before the final battle. Hence why he did beter than Trunks and Vegeta combo against merged Zamas.

Goku clearly got a rage boost. A statement isnt necessary. Not sure if it was a permanent rage boost, but it was a rage boost.

He figured Goku would be stronger but that doesnt mean Vegeta didnt also get stronger. This isnt a real rationalization as to why Goku did better in the beam struggle against Merged Zamasu

Goku was always stronger than Vegeta throughout the Black arc. Proven when they both fought Black the first time. Vegeta just got pwned while Goku put up a better fight. Also, overpowering merged Zamas by himself unlike Vegeta with help. And yes, a statement is necessary to explain what happened, cause Goku indeed does have a "bad habit" of holding back, stated in the same arc where SSJ2 Goku was fighting Black. It could be either one but statements are needed for both situations.

[PFM18]

I forgot that Goku Black said that Goku would come back stronger. It would seem like he kind of did but he only had 12 hours and he spent that time mastering the Mafuba.

In that time Vegeta trained hard for six months so he should have a good head start over Goku but it's never portrayed or mentioned to be that way.

Vegeta beat Black and Goku lost. Therefore, Goku was stronger.

It should be Vegeta > Goku Black > Goku.

It is. That's true

Uhm, Goku didn't get a rage boost, cause i don't think it was stated.

Black did say Goku would come back stronger just before the final battle. Hence why he did beter than Trunks and Vegeta combo against merged Zamas.

Goku clearly got a rage boost. A statement isnt necessary. Not sure if it was a permanent rage boost, but it was a rage boost.

He figured Goku would be stronger but that doesnt mean Vegeta didnt also get stronger. This isnt a real rationalization as to why Goku did better in the beam struggle against Merged Zamasu

Goku was always stronger than Vegeta throughout the Black arc. Proven when they both fought Black the first time. Vegeta just got pwned while Goku put up a better fight. Also, overpowering merged Zamas by himself unlike Vegeta with help. And yes, a statement is necessary to explain what happened, cause Goku indeed does have a "bad habit" of holding back, stated in the same arc where SSJ2 Goku was fighting Black. It could be either one but statements are needed for both situations.

Goku and Vegeta were equals prior to Vegeta's time in the ROSAT in which he obviously surpassed Goku. Vegeta still caught a punch from Black and they both lost so trying to split hairs as to who "lost worse" doesn't make much sense.

Why the hell would be holding back in that situation? He got angry and received an associated boost I don't see how there's any ambiguity there.

[Marlowe89]

When Goku aborbed SSG and was as strong as SSG and then stronger than it as a SSJ, he wasn't at the level of the gods then either.

False. Beerus specifically used the term "kami no chikara" (which, depending on the subtitles you're watching, is translated to strength/power/level of the gods) to describe Goku's strength as a Super Saiyan God on multiple occasions throughout the anime's adaptation of the BoG arc. That exact same term was the one used during the exhibition match of the Universe Survival arc.

Whis expresses how much progress Goku and Vegeta have made in the time he has trained them, and yet that they are still not at the level of the gods.

Doesn't matter. Neither of them learned to obtain god ki on their own yet during that scene, and more importantly, recent material for Broly directly confirms that Super Saiyan God (the form in general) grants access to the level of the gods.

Really, the only way you could possibly get around this is by arguing that the latest movie falls under a different continuity from the anime.

ONE statement would not have been enough to invalidate literally everything that had been established up to that point.

Also false. It would have been enough because that's exactly how retroactive continuity works. That's all it takes.

In Star Wars, the fanbase's entire conception of Han Solo's character was shaken to its core when George Lucas changed it so that it was, in fact, Greedo who shot first. And he did it with one scene. In Harry Potter, it was widely accepted that wizards could apparate across whole continents until Deathly Hallows came along and threw a wrench into the idea by setting a much smaller limit. In Naruto, Hiruzen Sarutobi was repeatedly established to be the strongest Hokage in history until it's demonstrated that he actually never was... which isn't the only significant retcon in that manga. A single statement is entirely sufficient to turn a consensus on its head. Out with the old, in with the new.

Not sure what else to tell you other than that you're literally arguing yourself into a circle. Have fun with that.

[PFM18]

False. Beerus specifically used the term "kami no chikara" (which, depending on the subtitles you're watching, is translated to strength/power/level of the gods) to describe Goku's strength as a Super Saiyan God on multiple occasions throughout the anime's adaptation of the BoG arc. That exact same term was the one used during the exhibition match of the Universe Survival arc.

Beerus commented on how he had the power of SSG or the power he had as a SSG. I don't actually see anything in the official translations using the verbatim "strength of the gods" so this could be a reflection of context or something but I'm not fluent in Japanese. Even if this were the case, it was made clear immediately afterwards by Whis that BoG SSG is NOT on the level of the gods.

Doesn't matter. Neither of them learned to obtain god ki on their own yet during that scene,

I know that's my point. Is that prior to learning God Ki, and still being superior to SSG, they were not on the level of the Gods according to Whis. It is made blatantly obvious in that scene that being as strong as BoG SSG and "the level of the Gods" are completely different levels because they were already established to be on another level of SSG, but stilll nothing to the level of the Gods. Therefore, there's no contradiction when the phrase "level of the Gods" is brought up to describe SSB.

recent material for Broly explicitly and directly confirms that Super Saiyan God (the form in general) grants access to the level of the gods.

You're just arguing semantics from promotional material dude. Having something that is slightly ambiguously contradictory is still not even remotely enough evidence to invalidate what was established in BoG, and reinforced in the several arcs that followed. And how are you certain it even refers to the form in general? It could refer to Vegeta reaching that level with that transformation.

In Star Wars, the fanbase's entire conception of Han Solo's character was shaken to its core when George Lucas changed it so that it was, in fact, Greedo who shot first. And he did it with one scene. In Harry Potter, it was widely accepted that wizards could apparate across whole continents until Deathly Hallows came along and threw a wrench into the idea by setting a much smaller limit. In Naruto, Hiruzen Sarutobi was repeatedly established to be the strongest Hokage in history until it's demonstrated that he actually never was... which isn't the only significant retcon in that manga. A single statement is entirely sufficient to turn a consensus on its head. Out with the old, in with the new.

This would hold water if we had an explicit statement that this was changed. We have a statement that may or may not even mean what you think it does, it isn't 100% clear.

[Miracles]

I forgot that Goku Black said that Goku would come back stronger. It would seem like he kind of did but he only had 12 hours and he spent that time mastering the Mafuba.

In that time Vegeta trained hard for six months so he should have a good head start over Goku but it's never portrayed or mentioned to be that way.

Vegeta beat Black and Goku lost. Therefore, Goku was stronger.

It should be Vegeta > Goku Black > Goku.

It is. That's true

Goku clearly got a rage boost. A statement isnt necessary. Not sure if it was a permanent rage boost, but it was a rage boost.

He figured Goku would be stronger but that doesnt mean Vegeta didnt also get stronger. This isnt a real rationalization as to why Goku did better in the beam struggle against Merged Zamasu

Goku was always stronger than Vegeta throughout the Black arc. Proven when they both fought Black the first time. Vegeta just got pwned while Goku put up a better fight. Also, overpowering merged Zamas by himself unlike Vegeta with help. And yes, a statement is necessary to explain what happened, cause Goku indeed does have a "bad habit" of holding back, stated in the same arc where SSJ2 Goku was fighting Black. It could be either one but statements are needed for both situations.

Goku and Vegeta were equals prior to Vegeta's time in the ROSAT in which he obviously surpassed Goku. Vegeta still caught a punch from Black and they both lost so trying to split hairs as to who "lost worse" doesn't make much sense.

Why the hell would be holding back in that situation? He got angry and received an associated boost I don't see how there's any ambiguity there.

There's no statement saying he got a rage boost. But in the preview Goku even says he will go all out with Trunks and Vegeta. Also what was stated is that the more Goku's body got beaten up the stronger it got. Most likely that is what happened to Goku cause it happened for Black in the very same episode to beat that enraged Goku.

Also Goku could of mopped Goku Black anytime in the final bout because he overpowers merged Zamas by himself and states that he was gonna use his full power.

Vegeta was never stronger than Goku.

[Marlowe89]

Beerus commented on how he had the power of SSG or the power he had as a SSG.

Then watch the arc again because I'm not spoonfeeding you. Beerus says "of the gods" on several occasions, regardless of subtitles. He isn't always specifically name-dropping Super Saiyan God.

Even if this were the case, it was made clear immediately afterwards by Whis that BoG SSG is NOT on the level of the gods.

Complete headcanon: Whis never says "Super Saiyan God isn't on the level of the gods" at any point. Beerus does, however, specifically claim the opposite. The moment you start making up dialogue is the moment you lose ground compared to what the series itself is trying to establish.

You're just arguing semantics from promotional material dude.

You're just ignoring said promotional material, "dude".

The statement directly attributes "reaching even the level of the gods" to "the astonishing battle form clad in a red aura". Therefore, Super Saiyan God as a form reaches the level of the gods. It's not complicated. In fact, it's probably one of the most linguistically straightforward descriptions out there.

It only takes one explicit instance of X to confirm X, and you've got two. That's not even counting everything that logically implies it in the same tournament.

[Bullza]

Goku was always stronger than Vegeta throughout the Black arc. Proven when they both fought Black the first time. Vegeta just got pwned while Goku put up a better fight.

That can't be, Goku and Vegeta were shown to be equal during the Copy Vegeta saga and that happened almost immediately before the Future Trunks saga.

Vegeta lost because he was caught off guard by the blade that came out of nowhere.

[BlueBasilisk]

I think Goku overpowering Zamasu's Holy Wrath was either an anger boost or some kind of desperation move. He was able to injure Zamasu but he also hurt himself pretty badly in the attempt and collapsed after using the Kaioken to break Zamasu's grip on his leg. I believe the last time we saw him do that kind of damage to himself was the Kaioken x4 against Vegeta's Galick Gun.

Edit: I wonder what might have happened if Vegeta had time to charge up one of his stronger attacks, like a Final Flash?

[RecolorSaiyan]

This supposed to mean episode 122 jiren was giving off ki that surpassed even UIO2 and ssj2 kefla? Not saying he was using all of that against vegeta but that the level he had powered up to in that episode was beyond anything before

[PFM18]

Then watch the arc again because I'm not spoonfeeding you. Beerus says "of the gods" on several occasions, regardless of subtitles. He isn't always specifically name-dropping Super Saiyan God.

If the verbatim is "of the gods" in this context it could easily simply be referring to God Ki itself since this is the first time Goku had used God Ki. Again, either way, this premise that it was established that Goku was established to be on the level of the Gods as a SSG and only again as a SSB is factually incorrect. Whis explicitly acknowledges that even after Goku had surpassed Super Saiyan God level of power(acknowledging how much progress he has made in conjunction with it already being explicitly stated that SSJ>=SSG by this point) that he is only a tree stump to the level of the Gods being a castle. Again, you're just misinterpreting the information.

Complete headcanon: Whis never says "Super Saiyan God isn't on the level of the gods" at any point. Beerus does, however, specifically claim the opposite. The moment you start making up dialogue is the moment you lose ground compared to what the series itself is trying to establish.

Nobody is making up dialogue. Goku/Beerus both state that Goku had matched the power of SSG as a SSJ, and then the narrator/episode title assert that he surpassed it, then immediately afterwards Whis trains Goku and is impressed with his progress in addition to already being stronger than Super Saiyan God. The verbatim "Super Saiyan God" doesnt't have to be used because it was already very thoroughly established that Super Saiyan God was already left in the dust and Goku/Vegeta are beyond that. So to say that RoF Goku is a tree stump to the God's castle is synonymous with saying BoG SSG is a tree stump to the castle's Gods because Goku was already beyond that point. I shouldn't have to even explain this to you this should be obvious.

The statement directly attributes "reaching even the level of the gods" to "the astonishing battle form clad in a red aura". Therefore, Super Saiyan God as a form reaches the level of the gods. It's not complicated. In fact, it's probably one of the most linguistically straightforward descriptions out there.

I was just acknowledging that it could possibly refer to something else. The meaning that you are asserting still aligns with everything I have said because your entire argument is founded on this fallacy that there is a deviation in this "level of the Gods" from the time of BoG to the time of the ToP. As Whis explained, prior to achieving SSB, they were nothing to the level of the Gods, by the time of the ToP, Goku's SSB is obviously at that level.

[Miracles]

Goku was always stronger than Vegeta throughout the Black arc. Proven when they both fought Black the first time. Vegeta just got pwned while Goku put up a better fight.

That can't be, Goku and Vegeta were shown to be equal during the Copy Vegeta saga and that happened almost immediately before the Future Trunks saga.

Vegeta lost because he was caught off guard by the blade that came out of nowhere.

Yeah, but Black called Vegeta a warm up and stated he even got stronger after the warm up fight. On top of that Goku was able to trade blows with a supposed stronger Black.

[Bullza]

So there are some here who believe that when Goku and Vegeta returned to the future for the final time that Vegeta had actually surpassed Goku at that point?

Even though that logically should be how it goes, I still think they'd be intended to be equal. Didn't Goku seem alright to face Black? He never mentioned anything about how Vegeta had surpassed him now and he'd leave it to Vegeta to handle Black.

If they actually we're still equal upon returning to the future then I would wonder why.

[Marlowe89]

If the verbatim is "of the gods" in this context it could easily simply be referring to God Ki itself since this is the first time Goku had used God Ki.

It's referring to his strength because, as already noted in this discussion, that's what the term specifically translates to. You can't just twist words to mean something that they don't actually mean because you're uncomfortable with the fact that Super Saiyan God is very much on the level of the gods, as it was directly established to be in the very first arc.

If anything, you're making it even more clear that you're willing to throw explicit statements out the window or even change them entirely as long as it's convenient for your preconceptions. That's an awfully desperate tactic, and it goes back to what I was saying about you begging the question because you tend to start from a conclusion and then reinterpret everything to make it "fit" that same conclusion. It doesn't work. It's dishonest, too.

Whis explicitly acknowledges that even after Goku had surpassed Super Saiyan God level of power

...I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Whis didn't "explicitly acknowledge" anything about post-BoG Goku and Vegeta surpassing Super Saiyan God in the scene you're referring to. You're pretty clearly making shit up here.

Beerus explicitly acknowledged that Goku reached [[[same Japanese term used during the exhibition match that directly translates to strength of the gods]]] with Super Saiyan God. That much is undeniable. That's a fact.

The verbatim "Super Saiyan God" doesnt't have to be used

Then don't say Whis was explicit about it, because that's not what explicit means. Don't use words you don't understand. Don't have the gall to talk about "verbatim" when you're already misusing basic terminology.

Dictionaries are always helpful.

My entire argument is founded on this fallacy that there is a deviation in this "level of the Gods" from the time of BoG to the time of the ToP.

FTFY.

Remember, you're the one refusing to acknowledge what Beerus outright said about SSG Goku during their fight.

[ZombieVito]

could you elaborate please? I don't see how he could be that weak.

Well base Commeson Vegeta wasn't dimensions apart from SS3 Gotenks since the latter lasted the full 5 minutes of his fusion and Boo's power was still made a big deal in the ToP arc. The Trio de Dangers also gave base Goku and Vegeta some trouble so they can't be dozens or hundreds of times weaker than them.

So today's question, one that I know has caused confusion before...how is it that Super Saiyan Blue Goku would seem to be just as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at the end of the Future Trunks saga?

Goku raged and had a power up that allowed him to beat up Goku Black. Goku Black had a Zenkai and had a power up that allowed him to beat up Goku. Vegeta trained in the Rosat and had a power up that allowed him to beat up Goku Black.

Yet Goku was every bit as strong as Vegeta even though he should be behind and he didn't do any training except learn the Mafuba.

My headcanon is that Goku got another power up while he was in the beam struggle with Merged Zamasu, enough for him to surpass Vegeta by a bit.

[PFM18]

It's referring to his strength because, as already noted in this discussion, that's what the term specifically translates to. You can't just twist words to mean something that they don't actually mean because you're uncomfortable with the fact that Super Saiyan God is very much on the level of the gods, as it was directly established to be in the very first arc.

Unlike yourself, I don't pretend that I am fluent in Japanese. I don't believe the official translations of Beerus's dialogue use the same verbatim that was used in Whis's conversation and in the Exhibition match. BoG was obviously never actually at the level of the GoDs. It is at the level of the GoDs in the same way that Beerus was using his full-power against Goku; It isn't. Beerus lied about using his full-power and taking his word in higher regard than Whis
s is stupid. If there was any doubt about whether or not Goku was on that level, it was quickly clarified in Whis's statement that Goku as a SSG is absolutely fucking nothing to the level of the Gods.

If anything, you're making it even more clear that you're willing to throw explicit statements out the window or even change them entirely as long as it's convenient for your preconceptions. That's an awfully desperate tactic, and it goes back to what I was saying about you begging the question because you tend to start from a conclusion and then reinterpret everything to make it "fit" that same conclusion. It doesn't work. It's dishonest, too.

Nothing was ever refit. Goku wasn't ever actually on the level of the Gods as a SSG. Goku got stronger than he was as a SSG and Whis, despite being impressed by how much stronger he got since then, explicitly acknowledges that is nothing to the GoDs. So again, your entire argument is flawed from the onset and you have failed to acknowledge this the entire time.

...I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Whis didn't "explicitly acknowledge" anything about post-BoG Goku and Vegeta surpassing Super Saiyan God in the scene you're referring to. You're pretty clearly making shit up here.

Beerus explicitly acknowledged that Goku reached [[[same Japanese term used during the exhibition match that directly translates to strength of the gods]]] with Super Saiyan God. That much is undeniable. That's a fact.

Whis explicitly acknowledged that Goku and Vegeta as it stood currently were nothing to the level of the Gods. It was very explicit. Ge literally compared them to a tree stump and compared a castle to the level of the Gods. It doesn't get any more explicit than that. That was what I was referring to as explicit. This was stated AFTER it was already established and made crystal clear that Goku was stronger at that time than when he fought Beerus as a SSG. Therefore, SSG is nothing to the level of the Gods per Whis's statement. It is very simple.

Then don't say Whis was explicit about it, because that's not what explicit means. Don't use words you don't understand. Don't have the gall to talk about "verbatim" when you're already misusing basic terminology.

Dictionaries are always helpful.

This is you just taking the time to ignore the crux of this argument to instead attack my vocabulary. Whis established that Goku wasn't at the level of the Gods then either. It is that simple. You haven't even attempted to address the fact that:

SSG<Goku(Whis training)<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<"level of the Gods" per Whis's statement.

FTFY.

You were complaining about my faux quotes and then go and do this......

[HeroR]

Goku was always stronger than Vegeta throughout the Black arc. Proven when they both fought Black the first time. Vegeta just got pwned while Goku put up a better fight.

That can't be, Goku and Vegeta were shown to be equal during the Copy Vegeta saga and that happened almost immediately before the Future Trunks saga.

Vegeta lost because he was caught off guard by the blade that came out of nowhere.

He was in the middle of an attack. His guard would have been up unlike Goku taking a laser to the chest from Sorbet.

[HeroR]

could you elaborate please? I don't see how he could be that weak.

Well base Commeson Vegeta wasn't dimensions apart from SS3 Gotenks since the latter lasted the full 5 minutes of his fusion and Boo's power was still made a big deal in the ToP arc. The Trio de Dangers also gave base Goku and Vegeta some trouble so they can't be dozens or hundreds of times weaker than them.

So today's question, one that I know has caused confusion before...how is it that Super Saiyan Blue Goku would seem to be just as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at the end of the Future Trunks saga?

Goku raged and had a power up that allowed him to beat up Goku Black. Goku Black had a Zenkai and had a power up that allowed him to beat up Goku. Vegeta trained in the Rosat and had a power up that allowed him to beat up Goku Black.

Yet Goku was every bit as strong as Vegeta even though he should be behind and he didn't do any training except learn the Mafuba.

My headcanon is that Goku got another power up while he was in the beam struggle with Merged Zamasu, enough for him to surpass Vegeta by a bit.

I highly doubt that fight with Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks lasted five minutes. Remember, base form Gotenks broke apart before he tried to fight Freeza in the Resurrection 'F' Saga. Do you really think it took Gotenks closed to thirty minutes to fly there when Gotenks in base form in the Buu Saga flew lapse around the world?

That and Goku got at least 10x stronger since the Copy-Vegeta thing since he fought a stronger hit with Kaioken and floored him with a Kamehameha. The same Hit who took attacks from Blue Kaioken x10.

[PFM18]

Goku was always stronger than Vegeta throughout the Black arc. Proven when they both fought Black the first time. Vegeta just got pwned while Goku put up a better fight.

That can't be, Goku and Vegeta were shown to be equal during the Copy Vegeta saga and that happened almost immediately before the Future Trunks saga.

Vegeta lost because he was caught off guard by the blade that came out of nowhere.

He was in the middle of an attack. His guard would have been up unlike Goku taking a laser to the chest from Sorbet.

He didn't expect a sword to come out and stab him, he didn't consider it, so because it took him by surprise it caught him off guard.