Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bergamo]

Cabbe is clearly takes his position on the sadla defence force seriously, so it wouldn't make sense for him to spend so much time and effort bolstering his strength. Either Cabbe got to God levels easily, or he spends more time training than protecting people.

He is constantly serving the Sadala defense force, so that IS his training. He is constantly fighting villains/evil people to protect people/fulfill his position. He obviously got to "God" levels easily relative to Goku/Vegeta because clearly the Universe 6 Saiyans dwarf the Universe 7 Saiyans.

As odd it is that Future Trunks would surpass Super Saiyan God (or even double it with Super Saiyan 2), I wouldn't say it's radically different from say Yamcha surpassing Raditz. Krillin surpassing Vegeta's level in the Saiyan Saga after just being touched on the head. Piccolo surpassing Frieza.

High end characters in one Saga are very quickly made non important. You had Cell and he was the end of all things and then in the next Saga he was just some guy from seven years ago who wouldn't be a problem anymore.

You see the kind of boost they gave Android 17 so how far fetched is it that Trunks would have one, it's actually a smaller boost than what Android 17.

Such a good point. I didn't quite ever think of the example of Yamcha surpassing Raditz or things like that, but the next arc always makes previous characters inevitably a joke. Like especially since the Future Trunks arc is the 4th arc and you're surpassing a character from the first arc. It is akin to Cell arc/Boo arc characters surpassing Saiyan arc Vegeta which obviously, EVERYBODY by that point surpassed the top dog from that many arcs ago.

The average space criminal should be incomprehensibly weaker than God level, and you can't get stronger by fighting weak opponents.

[1345521]

That should have confused absolutely nobody, in fact it should be expected that if their SSJ form was stated to be equal to and then surpass SSG, and then they got significantly stronger since then, that their Base forms would be above SSJ3 Gotenks by this point.

Yeah and that was established a couple sagas prior to. Base Goku matched Final Form Frieza whereas the rest of the Z Fighters didn't stand a chance against him in his first form.

His Base form strength skyrocketed like his Super Saiyan strength. Him being far above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was pretty consistent.

The confusion people seemed to have is that they didn't like the idea of characters like Cabba and especially Trunks being that strong too.

Yeah the common implication that Gohan~Goku in episode 75 completely fucks everything up but since Goku said he was testing Gohan at the beginning, and the dynamic of the fight never really changed, I just take it as Goku was testing Gohan the whole time.

It gets confusing from there because Gohan should never have been shown to be as strong as Goku. Where it becomes particularly confusing is that you would have Basil and Lavender who would be probably to Cell and Buu Saga characters and then Bergamo was roughly on the same level as Base Goku so would make him enormously more powerful than the other two.

[quote="1345521"So meggata, ssj cabba, sayainman gohan, ssj caulifa, trunks, are all stronger then ssj god that fought berrus? even Kuririn can withstand a fight against ssj god level oppenets? give me a break. The power scailing is down-right trash. And GT was better. It wasn't great, but better then supers anime. No doubt.

Saiyaman Gohan shouldn't be, they said he didn't have his "original strength" referring to the Buu Saga. The rest though should be yes. They're all around or stronger than Super Saiyan Goku aren't they?

You saw the episode where Goku went from a Super Saiyan God to a Super Saiyan and kept fighting, you heard them say that he didn't get any weaker from it. So anyone stronger than that Super Saiyan would in turn be stronger than that Super Saiyan God.

When did Krillin ever withstand a fight against someone that strong? He said he was weaker than Gohan. He was weaker than Basil.

GT's power scaling was that bad that I had to all but give up on it. It made no sense at all. Supers power scaling makes sense it's just a bit hard to swallow but GT's just didn't make sense, that's much worse.[/quote]
Super makes sense to you because you just selctivly ignore its bad parts. ssj sayainman gohan is strong enough to challenge ssj goku so he's god tier, and ssj2 trunks has passed the level of ssj god to you. You think ssj caulifa and cabba are SSJ GOD TIER, and the same for meggeta.

And I saw the episode were ssj god returned back in 104, if ssj god was absorbed in his ssj form, why was ssj god brought back. ssj god should be his ssj form. So again, that does not add up. It just means that ssj god in ssj form was retconned. Nothing hard to swallow about garbage, you just don't put it in your mouth. And how is GT power scailing soooo bad? lol. It's pretty straight forward and actaully shows consitency, unlike super.

[1345521]

Yeah and that was established a couple sagas prior to. Base Goku matched Final Form Frieza whereas the rest of the Z Fighters didn't stand a chance against him in his first form.

His Base form strength skyrocketed like his Super Saiyan strength. Him being far above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was pretty consistent.

The confusion people seemed to have is that they didn't like the idea of characters like Cabba and especially Trunks being that strong too.

Right. People have trouble with coming to terms with the power of Cabba/Future Trunks and then they come up with all kinds of wild head canon fan theories to work around that, and then they complain when things don't fit their meticulously formulated head canon. (This is more prevalent on other places than Kanzenshuu but still)

At the end of the day, Cabba is one of the strongest fighters in his Universe and Future Trunks had been training for the past 13 or 14 years that presumably included training with the Z-sword and getting pushed to his limit and gaining zenkais from fighting Goku Black that pushed him to new heights.(Still stupid, but it isn't awful.)

It gets confusing from there because Gohan should never have been shown to be as strong as Goku. Where it becomes particularly confusing is that you would have Basil and Lavender who would be probably to Cell and Buu Saga characters and then Bergamo was roughly on the same level as Base Goku so would make him enormously more powerful than the other two.

Yeah the scene portrays it weird but I think Goku was holding back a ton against Gohan. If he wasn't, it would fuck everything up. Bergamo only fought against Base Goku briefly before absorbing all of his power, so his power is incredibly hard to gauge. But even though they did explicitly recognize Lavender/Basil as being piss weak even from the perspective of their Base forms, but they gave a shitty excuse for why they didn't curb stomp them

So meggata, ssj cabba, sayainman gohan, ssj caulifa, trunks, are all stronger then ssj god that fought berrus? even Kuririn can withstand a fight against ssj god level oppenets? give me a break. The power scailing is down-right trash. And GT was better. It wasn't great, but better then supers anime. No doubt.

Yes. Nothing contradicted or inconsistent about Magetta, Cabba, Caulilfa and Trunks being stronger than BoG SSG. Neither saiyaman Gohan or Kururin really fit that category though. Nothing inherently inconsistent about any of it. You may not like it, but it doesn't contradict anything. GT, on the other hand, will literally blatantly contradict itself within the same episode let alone stay consistent over the course of the series. It is quite literally impossible to make a coherent PL list that fits all of the statements/feats that exist in GT.

ssj sayainman literally was literally fighting ssj goku to somewhat of a stalemate. ssj sayainman gohan is ssj god tier about, and the show shows that. No headcanon that's not supported by the show itself will stand.
You say that, but don't give any examples about GT. Also, super contradicts itself by saying in episode 16 that the only way to acheive god status was by training by whis, but gohan, trunks, 17 (LOOOL) all literally became god tier training on their own. 17 went from below ultimate gohan, to ssj blue tier in like 3-4 years espcailly. loool. sounds pretty iconsitent to me. And yes meggetta being SSJ GOD tier does seem far-fetched. First of all, if it were so - BERRUS or someone would have confirmed it or stated it, and since metalmen are in universe 7, because could have sensed a ssj god level being, if-not-race, of people. Your claims are utterly absurd and supported by nothing but faulty interpretations that's literally has evidence contrary. Your only evidecence is a quote from episode 13, and a filler-arc battle of base copy vegeta and gotenks, while I have evidence from series creators, return of ssj god as well as power scailing examples that'd make your claim far-fetched or down-right wrong. Plus I could even argue that toei just nerfed gotenks, since they portray them as very VERY weak and incomptent in super. Plus your power scailing of how strong BoG ssj god is... LOOOOL. Okay this is what you are like:

Me: How strong is BoG ssj goku
You: Stronger then ssj3 vegito
Me: How do you know that? that was never stated plus ssj3 vegito dosen't exist
you: Goku said (THOUGHT) fusion wouldn't work, and 'hypothetically' vegito can go to ssj3 and gokus knows this so he must (headcanon) be taking it into account, and when he went ssj god he was shocked at the power therefore it's stronger then fusion.
Me: Okay, but in episode 114 we saw base kefla, a fuse of weaker then base goku in base kale and cualifa, roffle stomp ssj god
You: He was tired
Me: Wait, so he was tired so much that he couldn't use less than 1/400th of his power? so much so that a mere BASE FUSION could stomp a form that's meant to be stronger than a ssj3 level fusion? Adding to the fact that the base fusion beating him would be weaker then a full power base vegito in comparison due to weaker fuse plus no comment about a rival boost?
You: kefla's fusion is stronger then vegito, or the fusion of vegito in ToP would become stronger then ssj god
Me: Do you have any evidence to substantiate it?
You: Yes, which is either of those theories are supported as to why the descrpencies btween episode 5 and 13, and 114 happen.
Me: Wait, that's not evidence. That's circular logic. You are pushing the mere fact it is an explaination to a refute to your un-proven theory as evidence within itself. That's not correct.
You: You are not making any sense now, goodbye.
Me: Wait, what? how did I?...Comeback!
you: Crickets

[1345521]

Cabbe is clearly takes his position on the sadla defence force seriously, so it wouldn't make sense for him to spend so much time and effort bolstering his strength. Either Cabbe got to God levels easily, or he spends more time training than protecting people.

He is constantly serving the Sadala defense force, so that IS his training. He is constantly fighting villains/evil people to protect people/fulfill his position. He obviously got to "God" levels easily relative to Goku/Vegeta because clearly the Universe 6 Saiyans dwarf the Universe 7 Saiyans.

As odd it is that Future Trunks would surpass Super Saiyan God (or even double it with Super Saiyan 2), I wouldn't say it's radically different from say Yamcha surpassing Raditz. Krillin surpassing Vegeta's level in the Saiyan Saga after just being touched on the head. Piccolo surpassing Frieza.

High end characters in one Saga are very quickly made non important. You had Cell and he was the end of all things and then in the next Saga he was just some guy from seven years ago who wouldn't be a problem anymore.

You see the kind of boost they gave Android 17 so how far fetched is it that Trunks would have one, it's actually a smaller boost than what Android 17.

Such a good point. I didn't quite ever think of the example of Yamcha surpassing Raditz or things like that, but the next arc always makes previous characters inevitably a joke. Like especially since the Future Trunks arc is the 4th arc and you're surpassing a character from the first arc. It is akin to Cell arc/Boo arc characters surpassing Saiyan arc Vegeta which obviously, EVERYBODY by that point surpassed the top dog from that many arcs ago.

The average space criminal should be incomprehensibly weaker than God level, and you can't get stronger by fighting weak opponents.

He is probably going to say since you cannot know the "potential" of universe 6 sayains, it does not "contradict" anything so they can get as powerful as the creators want them to be, in which case they made him to be above ssj god level fighting "most likely" below god-tier levels minions (which isn't "fact", but just his own interpretations which has muntains of evidence against...)

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

On the topic of Kefla vs. SSG Goku, the reason why I think it makes sense is a few different reasons.

Like I've highlighted before, I believe the show propagates a "partially but not fully-absorbed power of SSG" idea for both Goku and Vegeta. In this way, all their forms are much stronger than before but still not at that level; they still need to fully turn SSG to access all of its base power, but the jump isn't large as it was from Buu Arc levels to SSG. So, how much stronger is SSG, then?

Generally speaking, I compare it to how strong Ultimate Gohan is right now. Gohan had access to power beyond SS3 when it was first unlocked, and there's no indication that his own forms were abhorrently strong compared to the others, and yet it still surpassed SS3 Gotenks. There's also the the idea that SS Gotenks is potentially at or above SS3 Goku back then, and knowing the numerical boost of the ordinary SS forms, we have an increase of at least 10 times or so. This difference can be roughly extrapolated for how much stronger Ultimate would be than SS3, and in turn how Gohan compares to Goku right now.

How is this relevant? Well, both the manga and anime present a scenario where Ultimate Gohan has gotten to a level "approaching" SSB Goku, but not quite being there; he's presented as roughly equal in equivalent forms, so it's pretty easy to place Gohan compared to Goku. There's also debate about how strong a Potara Fusion like Vegito is, and some people approximate his base form in terms of proportionality back in the Buu Arc to Ultimate Gohan, give or take.

So overall, I usually place SSG around this range: over 10 times stronger than current SS3 Goku, whose base form surpasses SS3 Gotenks and may even be at a similar level to base Vegito, which would certainly scale SSG in Battle of Gods more easily if that were indeed the case. My personal take is being about 5000 times over base Goku, with SSB ranging from 5-10 times stronger than SSG. And Kefla, then, can be relative if her boost in the anime is similar to Vegito's proportional boost.

[1345521]

On the topic of Kefla vs. SSG Goku, the reason why I think it makes sense is a few different reasons.

Like I've highlighted before, I believe the show propagates a "partially but not fully-absorbed power of SSG" idea for both Goku and Vegeta. In this way, all their forms are much stronger than before but still not at that level; they still need to fully turn SSG to access all of its base power, but the jump isn't large as it was from Buu Arc levels to SSG. So, how much stronger is SSG, then?

Generally speaking, I compare it to how strong Ultimate Gohan is right now. Gohan had access to power beyond SS3 when it was first unlocked, and there's no indication that his own forms were abhorrently strong compared to the others, and yet it still surpassed SS3 Gotenks. There's also the the idea that SS Gotenks is potentially at or above SS3 Goku back then, and knowing the numerical boost of the ordinary SS forms, we have an increase of at least 10 times or so. This difference can be roughly extrapolated for how much stronger Ultimate would be than SS3, and in turn how Gohan compares to Goku right now.

How is this relevant? Well, both the manga and anime present a scenario where Ultimate Gohan has gotten to a level "approaching" SSB Goku, but not quite being there; he's presented as roughly equal in equivalent forms, so it's pretty easy to place Gohan compared to Goku. There's also debate about how strong a Potara Fusion like Vegito is, and some people approximate his base form in terms of proportionality back in the Buu Arc to Ultimate Gohan, give or take.

So overall, I usually place SSG around this range: over 10 times stronger than current SS3 Goku, whose base form surpasses SS3 Gotenks and may even be at a similar level to base Vegito, which would certainly scale SSG in Battle of Gods more easily if that were indeed the case. My personal take is being about 5000 times over base Goku, with SSB ranging from 5-10 times stronger than SSG. And Kefla, then, can be relative if her boost in the anime is similar to Vegito's proportional boost.

So you are basically saying that goku base and normal ssj form got evlevated while his god form boost stayed the same (so bascially it got divided by the elevation of vegetas and gokus base and via ssj forms)like if base goku to ssj god was a 100K. Goku and vegeta bas after tasting ssj god power, then increased 20x, now base to ssj god SSJ god is only 5k. And what you are basically saying is that in btween that decrease in mutliplyer of ssj god, lay the mutliplyer of potora fusion? So it explains why ssj god in bog is stronger then base vegito, but it woud be weaker then base kefla come top. That is some high-level headcaon. Do you really think this is what toei was trying to secretly message to the audience? Dude, c'mon. Theory is nice, but it has no evidence supporting it other then it serving as an explaination to explain an appearnt contradiction.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

On the topic of Kefla vs. SSG Goku, the reason why I think it makes sense is a few different reasons.

Like I've highlighted before, I believe the show propagates a "partially but not fully-absorbed power of SSG" idea for both Goku and Vegeta. In this way, all their forms are much stronger than before but still not at that level; they still need to fully turn SSG to access all of its base power, but the jump isn't large as it was from Buu Arc levels to SSG. So, how much stronger is SSG, then?

Generally speaking, I compare it to how strong Ultimate Gohan is right now. Gohan had access to power beyond SS3 when it was first unlocked, and there's no indication that his own forms were abhorrently strong compared to the others, and yet it still surpassed SS3 Gotenks. There's also the the idea that SS Gotenks is potentially at or above SS3 Goku back then, and knowing the numerical boost of the ordinary SS forms, we have an increase of at least 10 times or so. This difference can be roughly extrapolated for how much stronger Ultimate would be than SS3, and in turn how Gohan compares to Goku right now.

How is this relevant? Well, both the manga and anime present a scenario where Ultimate Gohan has gotten to a level "approaching" SSB Goku, but not quite being there; he's presented as roughly equal in equivalent forms, so it's pretty easy to place Gohan compared to Goku. There's also debate about how strong a Potara Fusion like Vegito is, and some people approximate his base form in terms of proportionality back in the Buu Arc to Ultimate Gohan, give or take.

So overall, I usually place SSG around this range: over 10 times stronger than current SS3 Goku, whose base form surpasses SS3 Gotenks and may even be at a similar level to base Vegito, which would certainly scale SSG in Battle of Gods more easily if that were indeed the case. My personal take is being about 5000 times over base Goku, with SSB ranging from 5-10 times stronger than SSG. And Kefla, then, can be relative if her boost in the anime is similar to Vegito's proportional boost.

So you are basically saying that goku base and normal ssj form got evlevated while his god form boost stayed the same (so bascially it got divided by the elevation of vegetas and gokus base and via ssj forms)like if base goku to ssj god was a 100K. Goku and vegeta bas after tasting ssj god power, then increased 20x, now base to ssj god SSJ god is only 5k. And what you are basically saying is that in btween that decrease in mutliplyer of ssj god, lay the mutliplyer of potora fusion? So it explains why ssj god in bog is stronger then base vegito, but it woud be weaker then base kefla come top. That is some high-level headcaon. Do you really think this is what toei was trying to secretly message to the audience? Dude, c'mon. Theory is nice, but it has no evidence supporting it other then it serving as an explaination to explain an appearnt contradiction.

Hey, nobody said anything about "this being Toei's plan all along", or that this was anything more than personal interpretation. Not to mention I DID list the evidence. We KNOW that Goku and Vegeta have made SSG's power their own, but we also know that they both aren't at the level of SSG ordinarily and need the SSG form or SSB to get there.

As well, I never mentioned a decreasING boost, just a decreasED boost; the power of the SSG form likely does grow alongside Goku's and Vegeta's own, but I believe its boost to have retained a smaller proportional jump compared to the ritual. Basically, after making a portion of it their own permanently due to Goku's fight with Beerus and his and Vegeta's training under Whis, they need to transform to access all of its base power; this base power of SSG can still grow, since it's linked to their own growth. As well, Vegito and in turn Kefla retaining the same PROPORTIONAL boost of a powerful Potara Fusion would allow it to overtake SSG, assuming the numbers work out as I envision; I think they do, given Gohan's relation to Goku in terms of power.

You don't have to believe it, and I doubt I'll convince you and grammatically erroneous response (you should work on your typed grammar a bit, it's hard to read what you're saying). Agree to disagree, since nobody will be convinced the other is more factually correct.

[1345521]

On the topic of Kefla vs. SSG Goku, the reason why I think it makes sense is a few different reasons.

Like I've highlighted before, I believe the show propagates a "partially but not fully-absorbed power of SSG" idea for both Goku and Vegeta. In this way, all their forms are much stronger than before but still not at that level; they still need to fully turn SSG to access all of its base power, but the jump isn't large as it was from Buu Arc levels to SSG. So, how much stronger is SSG, then?

Generally speaking, I compare it to how strong Ultimate Gohan is right now. Gohan had access to power beyond SS3 when it was first unlocked, and there's no indication that his own forms were abhorrently strong compared to the others, and yet it still surpassed SS3 Gotenks. There's also the the idea that SS Gotenks is potentially at or above SS3 Goku back then, and knowing the numerical boost of the ordinary SS forms, we have an increase of at least 10 times or so. This difference can be roughly extrapolated for how much stronger Ultimate would be than SS3, and in turn how Gohan compares to Goku right now.

How is this relevant? Well, both the manga and anime present a scenario where Ultimate Gohan has gotten to a level "approaching" SSB Goku, but not quite being there; he's presented as roughly equal in equivalent forms, so it's pretty easy to place Gohan compared to Goku. There's also debate about how strong a Potara Fusion like Vegito is, and some people approximate his base form in terms of proportionality back in the Buu Arc to Ultimate Gohan, give or take.

So overall, I usually place SSG around this range: over 10 times stronger than current SS3 Goku, whose base form surpasses SS3 Gotenks and may even be at a similar level to base Vegito, which would certainly scale SSG in Battle of Gods more easily if that were indeed the case. My personal take is being about 5000 times over base Goku, with SSB ranging from 5-10 times stronger than SSG. And Kefla, then, can be relative if her boost in the anime is similar to Vegito's proportional boost.

So you are basically saying that goku base and normal ssj form got evlevated while his god form boost stayed the same (so bascially it got divided by the elevation of vegetas and gokus base and via ssj forms)like if base goku to ssj god was a 100K. Goku and vegeta bas after tasting ssj god power, then increased 20x, now base to ssj god SSJ god is only 5k. And what you are basically saying is that in btween that decrease in mutliplyer of ssj god, lay the mutliplyer of potora fusion? So it explains why ssj god in bog is stronger then base vegito, but it woud be weaker then base kefla come top. That is some high-level headcaon. Do you really think this is what toei was trying to secretly message to the audience? Dude, c'mon. Theory is nice, but it has no evidence supporting it other then it serving as an explaination to explain an appearnt contradiction.

Hey, nobody said anything about "this being Toei's plan all along", or that this was anything more than personal interpretation. Not to mention I DID list the evidence. We KNOW that Goku and Vegeta have made SSG's power their own, but we also know that they both aren't at the level of SSG ordinarily and need the SSG form or SSB to get there.

As well, I never mentioned a decreasING boost, just a decreasED boost; the power of the SSG form likely does grow alongside Goku's and Vegeta's own, but I believe its boost to have retained a smaller proportional jump compared to the ritual. Basically, after making a portion of it their own permanently due to Goku's fight with Beerus and his and Vegeta's training under Whis, they need to transform to access all of its base power; this base power of SSG can still grow, since it's linked to their own growth. As well, Vegito and in turn Kefla retaining the same PROPORTIONAL boost of a powerful Potara Fusion would allow it to overtake SSG, assuming the numbers work out as I envision; I think they do, given Gohan's relation to Goku in terms of power.

You don't have to believe it, and I doubt I'll convince you and grammatically erroneous response (you should work on your typed grammar a bit, it's hard to read what you're saying). Agree to disagree, since nobody will be convinced the other is more factually correct.

ORR... episode 13 has been retconned, just like how the manga retconned a lot of Bog and Rof which it implied it is a direct contintuation of. The fact that ssj god form rturned itself is a tell-tale sign a lot of rof and bog were retconned. toriyama stated that he didn't intend that toei or toyo use ssj, 2 or 3. Because of base god absorbation, god base and god that. but that was retconned due to popularity of both forms, so all we can deduce is their base forms are just a little stronger then they were in the buu sga/bog arc respectfully. Maybe 2x or at max 5x. Though for the anime, the power scailing is so awful it doesn't even matter.

[PFM18]

dude holy shit you can't be double posting let alone triple posting

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

dude holy shit you can't be double posting let alone triple posting

Yeah, that's a big no no, 1345521.

[Bullza]

Super makes sense to you because you just selctivly ignore its bad parts. ssj sayainman gohan is strong enough to challenge ssj goku so he's god tier, and ssj2 trunks has passed the level of ssj god to you. You think ssj caulifa and cabba are SSJ GOD TIER, and the same for meggeta.

No I never said there weren't problems, the Gohan vs. Goku is one, in fact Gohan in general is one of the biggest power scaling problems. Yes though the rest should be God tier. If Super Saiyan Goku is outright said to be as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku then that means Super Saiyan Goku would obviously be God tier. So of course anyone else comparable to that would be as well.

The scaling isn't bad, it just takes a bit to accept. There's nothing to say why Super Saiyan Cabba and Caulifla couldn't be that strong, we know next to nothing about them or their training. We know even less about Magetta so there's nothing inconsistent there either. Trunks is the weirdest one but we never saw what he did in all those years, what he did with Supreme Kai or if or how many Zenkai Boosts he may have got from fighting Goku Black.

And I saw the episode were ssj god returned back in 104, if ssj god was absorbed in his ssj form, why was ssj god brought back. ssj god should be his ssj form. So again, that does not add up. It just means that ssj god in ssj form was retconned.

No that wouldn't really be a problem. In Battle of Gods he was a Super Saiyan God, he lost the form, as a Super Saiyan they said he was no weaker and he had that power....yet he still turned back into a Super Saiyan God moments later to stop the final attack.

There was never anything to suggest he couldn't still become a Super Saiyan God even after absorbing the power. The movie proves this for a fact. It was done differently in the manga, it returned a bit later in the Universe 6 saga and it was also done differently in the anime and returned later still in the Universe Survival saga. There was no retcon.

And how is GT power scailing soooo bad? lol. It's pretty straight forward and actaully shows consitency, unlike super.

It isn't consistent. You had Super Saiyan 3 Goku get stomped by Baby and then Majuub puts up a much better fight against a stronger Baby. Then shortly after this, Majjub gets stomped by Super 17 and somehow Super Saiyan Goku is so much stronger than him to the point he can punch Super 17 half way around the world.

Also you seem to find it farfetched that a random alien like Magetta could be God tier but in GT you have a random alien like Rildo who is stronger than Kid Buu.

[RecolorSaiyan]

From Daizenshuu 7:

What about the change in Goku’s battle power after that?

Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…

[1345521]

Super makes sense to you because you just selctivly ignore its bad parts. ssj sayainman gohan is strong enough to challenge ssj goku so he's god tier, and ssj2 trunks has passed the level of ssj god to you. You think ssj caulifa and cabba are SSJ GOD TIER, and the same for meggeta.

No I never said there weren't problems, the Gohan vs. Goku is one, in fact Gohan in general is one of the biggest power scaling problems. Yes though the rest should be God tier. If Super Saiyan Goku is outright said to be as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku then that means Super Saiyan Goku would obviously be God tier. So of course anyone else comparable to that would be as well.

The scaling isn't bad, it just takes a bit to accept. There's nothing to say why Super Saiyan Cabba and Caulifla couldn't be that strong, we know next to nothing about them or their training. We know even less about Magetta so there's nothing inconsistent there either. Trunks is the weirdest one but we never saw what he did in all those years, what he did with Supreme Kai or if or how many Zenkai Boosts he may have got from fighting Goku Black.

And I saw the episode were ssj god returned back in 104, if ssj god was absorbed in his ssj form, why was ssj god brought back. ssj god should be his ssj form. So again, that does not add up. It just means that ssj god in ssj form was retconned.

No that wouldn't really be a problem. In Battle of Gods he was a Super Saiyan God, he lost the form, as a Super Saiyan they said he was no weaker and he had that power....yet he still turned back into a Super Saiyan God moments later to stop the final attack.

There was never anything to suggest he couldn't still become a Super Saiyan God even after absorbing the power. The movie proves this for a fact. It was done differently in the manga, it returned a bit later in the Universe 6 saga and it was also done differently in the anime and returned later still in the Universe Survival saga. There was no retcon.

And how is GT power scailing soooo bad? lol. It's pretty straight forward and actaully shows consitency, unlike super.

It isn't consistent. You had Super Saiyan 3 Goku get stomped by Baby and then Majuub puts up a much better fight against a stronger Baby. Then shortly after this, Majjub gets stomped by Super 17 and somehow Super Saiyan Goku is so much stronger than him to the point he can punch Super 17 half way around the world.

Also you seem to find it farfetched that a random alien like Magetta could be God tier but in GT you have a random alien like Rildo who is stronger than Kid Buu.

Like dude, TRUNKS in less then 15 years got to become stronger then a ssj god and yet no one or series even mentioned it? ssj cabba and ssj cualifa are way above ssj god but yet don't one-shot most partcipants (oh, yes because all the particpant have ssj god levels of power like cmon) and have no comment by berrus or anyone substaniating they are SSJ GOD TIER? sorry, but it's complete ludicrosy to me. There's not enough evidence to show cabba and caulifa are SSJ GOD TIER. Also, goku never returned back to ssj god, what are you talking about? show me where.
We see cabba get beat to a pulp by that green girl bouncy ball thing, is SHE SSJ GOD tier, who is powerful enough to slap majin buu? Like cmon. Is yadrat ssj god tier, since goku struggled to keep up with his "instant transmission"? Is frost ssj god tier? is andorid 18 ssj god tier, since she helped base goku against the pride troopers and deafeted ribranne who was shown to be ssj vegeta level? dude stop, if you dig deep into the series - the notion that ssj goku after bog > ssj god is nonsense.
What happened in most probabillity was what takes place in the manga, their bases are just more enhanced version of their buu saga countperarts. maybe like 2-5x at max 10x. Though supers anime power makes no sense it does not even matter. Goku can fight roshi harder then he fights fit buu. It's a total mess and a joke. I don't even bother, super does not. Hence why supers anime has the WORST power scailing BY FAR out of any dragon ball continutiy.
First of all, being kid buu level is FAR CRY then being ssj god, and rildo was created by DR. miyu or whatever his name is, which is gero but way smarter and more technolgy. And looked how gero created the andorids and cell? it's logical to beleive he could create a machine rildo that's even stronger.
And that gt example was one (which was bad) but super has a lot worse. Like ssj2 trunks able to fight rose black, Kuririn vs ssj blue goku - ultimate gohan and andorid 17 being randomly on blue level. Super is way stupdier.
And I think the reason you say GT is because GT was probably more boring to you, so when it messed up, you probably took more exception, but when super messes up (and more frequently) you probaly like the show and are able to shrug it off because you enjoy the content a lot more. But objectivly, thepower scailing of GT makes way more sense then super.

[1345521]

From Daizenshuu 7:

What about the change in Goku’s battle power after that?

Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…

Exactly, zenkais don't even mean anything after Freeza arc. Yet people is saying trunks zenakied himself on poor nurtriention and training alone up to ssj god, but complains about Gt? like cmon. The double-standard. Thanks for that pocket of info

[Miracles]

When Goku reverted from red to blonde he could be sensed.
At the TOP exhibition, no one noted god Ki until Goku went Blue.
Saying Goku has god powers in his base/SS is very suspect.

[CTAkuma]

When Goku reverted from red to blonde he could be sensed.
At the TOP exhibition, no one noted god Ki until Goku went Blue.
Saying Goku has god powers in his base/SS is very suspect.

By saying Goku absorbed God power in base, people mean that, "POWER" not the god ki itself

[PFM18]

When Goku reverted from red to blonde he could be sensed.
At the TOP exhibition, no one noted god Ki until Goku went Blue.
Saying Goku has god powers in his base/SS is very suspect.

Literallly nobody said that he had God Ki in his Base/SSJ form.

When Goku reverted from red to blonde he could be sensed.
At the TOP exhibition, no one noted god Ki until Goku went Blue.
Saying Goku has god powers in his base/SS is very suspect.

By saying Goku absorbed God power in base, people mean that, "POWER" not the god ki itself

But "absorbed into base" was never stated nor implied. The talk of adapting to and "infusing into himself" was when Goku was in his SSJ form, and there was never any further comment about absorbing anything or anything similar to it after that.

[CTAkuma]

But "absorbed into base" was never stated nor implied. The talk of adapting to and "infusing into himself" was when Goku was in his SSJ form, and there was never any further comment about absorbing anything or anything similar to it after that.

This meme again. Toriyama himself said "absorbed" when talking about it in a daizenshuu interview

[Marlowe89]

The confusion people seemed to have is that they didn't like the idea of characters like Cabba and especially Trunks being that strong too.

Remarks like this are why I rarely post in this thread anymore. You're assuming anyone who disagrees with Cabba being that strong only does so because he/she doesn't "like the idea" of it. I could just as easily contend that certain users only agree with Cabba being that strong because they like the idea of it and want him to be that strong, but I won't because it's not conducive.

As a matter of fact, I don't give a rat's ass about how strong Toei wants Cabba to be. I'm saying I'm not convinced that the anime is trying to portray him at that level -- if they were, they wouldn't have established that Super Saiyan Goku wasn't using the "strength of the gods" during the exhibition prior to transforming into Blue, the same Japanese term Beerus used to describe Super Saiyan God Goku's power level in the first arc.

Discrepancies exist in the anime, and they're definitely not just limited to Gohan.

[PFM18]

But "absorbed into base" was never stated nor implied. The talk of adapting to and "infusing into himself" was when Goku was in his SSJ form, and there was never any further comment about absorbing anything or anything similar to it after that.

This meme again. Toriyama himself said "absorbed" when talking about it in a daizenshuu interview

I am well aware. Even in that interview all he did was establish that SSJ~SSG. Otherwise, upon "absorbing into base" during that time Goku would have surpassed Beerus by just going SSJ after this happened, because at the time Goku was 60% of Beerus as a SSG. The phrasing constantly used "absorbed into base" was never stated nor implied. The only time absorption was mentioned was when Goku was in his SSJ form.

Remarks like this are why I rarely post in this thread anymore. You're assuming anyone who disagrees with Cabba being that strong only does so because he/she doesn't "like the idea" of it.

That is literally the case. We have it explicitly stated that Goku was equal to SSG in his SSJ form, then he surpasses it as the fight goes on, and then Vegeta is stated to become as strong as Goku or possibly stronger, then Vegeta remarks that Cabba matched him and they fight fairly equally. It has nothing to do with what you like, it is just using logical deductions and nothing more.

In the anime continuity, SSJ Cabba>BoG SSG Goku is not up for debate. It is a fact at this point.

As a matter of fact, I don't give a rat's ass about how strong Toei wants Cabba to be. I'm saying I'm not convinced that the anime is trying to portray him at that level

Speculating about Toei's intentions is not objective. Anything more than just taking the facts/evidence that we are presented to us is akin to head canon.