Marlowe89 wrote:At no point did I argue that Toei (initially, at least) never intended Goku to have the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan in the first arc. I'm talking about what they intended in the Universe Survival arc, and I'm going over what they specifically established during the exhibition match. A direct statement doesn't suddenly mean something different just because you want to believe a single scene in BoG applies to Toei's intent for the entire rest of the series.
I don't even know what you think even indicates the authorial change in the first place. You seem to think that Goku as a Super Saiyan God/Super Saiyan post ritual was supposed to be at the "level of the gods" but then later only upon going SSB was Goku at the "level of the gods", but you appear to be confused because this is patently not the case. When Goku aborbed SSG and was as strong as SSG and then stronger than it as a SSJ, he wasn't at the level of the gods then either. We know this because almost immediately after this was established in episodes 13/14, Vegeta is stated by Goku to have ki that is "unrecognizable from the level on Earth", and possibly surpassed this Goku, who had just been established to be stronger than SSG, Whis expresses how much progress Goku and Vegeta have made in the time he has trained them, and yet that
they are still not at the level of the gods. Whis literally says that Goku/Vegeta are akin to a tree and the level of the gods is the castle. Goku absorbed SSG, surpassed SSG as a SSJ, and then trained with Whis and got stronger and was still stated to be absolutely nothing to the level of the Gods. (Prior to their achieving SSB) So Goku post-SSG was NEVER "at the level of the gods" so there is not a contradiction, the literal opposite was stated. So you are mistaken when you seem to think that this "level of the Gods" was expressed to be BoG SSG at one point but at SSB at another point, and so a retcon is needed to reconcile this.
But let's just pretend that your entire argument didn't rest on an uninformed premise. ONE statement would not have been enough to invalidate literally everything that had been established up to that point.
Your whole premise operates on the notion that an authorial change within the anime is impossible at the outset, which automatically trivializes your attempt to prove that it couldn't happen because you're basing everything around your initial conclusion. That's called begging the question, which is circular reasoning. It's also not objective.
Not sure how you came to this conclusion. You accuse me of circular reasoning because I am not using one misinterpretation to rationalize the entire foundation of the power scaling turning on it's head. I never said nor implied that it is impossible for an authorial change to occur, it is just that there is no evidence of one to begin with.
No, I'm backing it up by taking the facts exactly as they're presented instead of picking and choosing the facts that cater to my preconceptions, while also recognizing that certain ideas in the anime can conflict with each other. It's not rocket science.
You're not doing that at all. You are literally "picking and choosing the facts" because you conveniently ignore everything that corroborates what happened in episodes 13/14 because of one statement that you seem to think contradicts the premise. You only consider things that align with your flawed idea that the anime and manga MUST have similar power scaling as though it is impossible for them to be independent of each other based on the differences in Toei and Toyotaro's interpretations of AT's story. And yes, obviously things in the anime can conflict with each other and that must be recognized but this is not an example of that.
Skar wrote:
Would the idea that Base Goku was thousands or millions of times stronger than SSJ Gohan but decided to turn SSJ then hold back to less than .1% of his power count as headcanon?
I never claimed to have some kind of exact quantity to how much Goku was suppressed. I recognize that Goku admitted to be holding back/testing Gohan, and we receive no indication that this has changed. We know Gohan was suppressed, but any anything further is conjecture. Obviously Goku and Gohan fighting evenly while Gohan accuses Goku of holding back and he admits to it, we know Goku is stronger than Gohan in equivalent forms. I Again, I never claimed that it was undeniable fact that Goku was using less than .1% of his power nor did I ever make that assertion in the first place.
Skar wrote:
Would the idea that SSJ God had a different power-up/multiplier after he started using it again count as headcanon?
Yes. I open acknowledge that this was head canon. It is a logical deduction from what we know, however it is still head canon. But what is the alternative? The options to reconcile that scene are to say:
1. "LOL DBS power scaling sucks bro. It is so stupid"
2. "Kefla has a massively more potent fusion than Vegetto for no reason"
3. "Goku was already stated to have made the SSG power his own, so using it again doesn't yield the same boost as it did before."
I see option #3 to be the best option even if it is head canon.
Would the idea that characters like base Cabba and Trunks were intended to be vastly stronger than their manga counterparts count as headcanon?
No. It is an obvious implication from Goku "absorbing" SSG in the anime and not the manga. Goku retained the level of power of SSG as a SSJ in the anime but not the manga. This difference is naturally going to have the consequence of characters be different levels of power in relation to their Z/Buu arc counterparts. We see this in that Base Goku>SSJ3 Gotenks in the Potafu arc and Goku is thoroughly impressed by Buu getting strong enough through training to even compete with his Base form. Meanwhile, Goku in the manga is impressed that Trunks was able to surpass Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan. The SSJ3 Gotenks, Buu, Final Form Freeza scene, and Base Goku vs Beerus scene all occur in the anime and not the manga. I don't think that is some kind of weird coincidence that all of the scenes where the Base Saiyans are portrayed as being super powerful are only in the anime. It is absolutely not head canon.
That's fine if you don't want to speculate what Toei's writers intended but I think its important to differentiate between headcanon and what they intended when claiming this is what the story is trying to tell us
But we don't know what was intended. We don't have the writers in front of us to explain what exactly they meant by any particular scene that may remotely be open to interpretation. It is pointless to speculate about their intentions.
It doesn't make sense to me that someone could argue that base Cabba or Future Trunks are capable of a similar feat and coming up with headcanon to cover the rest while complaining about GT. I didn't like GT much or think it was very consistent to begin with but I just found it less confusing.
Nobody is claiming Base Cabba could replicate that feat. Or at least not me or Bullza are arguing that. Goku retained the power of SSG as a SSJ. His Base was not stronger than SSG. In the anime, anybody stronger than current SSJ Goku should be able to easily replicate that feat though because by this time current SSJ Goku is far beyond BoG SSG considering all of the training/strength gains he has made since his SSJ was equal to BoG SSG.
buutenks wrote:The way I see it for the anime. Anyone above ssj1 Goku is stronger than ssg BoG Goku. Only exception is ep 75 ssj Gohan and Bergamo(since he was stealing Goku's power).
I definitely think that is the most reasonable way to view it.
Yeah ep 75 Gohan is weird. I don't think it was made clear enough that Goku was suppressed.
Brettjr25 wrote:PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:With the timeline putting the meeting with Uub in about 3 years in-universe, how strong do people have base Goku and raged-out Uub, based on current information that DBS has given us?
Who knows, DBS keeps having Goku increase exponentially between Super and EOZ that he can end up Zeno level but they can always make it believable fight given that the fact that ROF gave us the plot point that people born with super powerful power levels can increase them up to God levels easily. If 100% Freeza can become easily as strong as SSB so shortly than base Pure Buu power level should be easily able to surpass SSB. So it shouldn't be a shock that Rage UUB could be on Base Goku's level what ever that ends up as.
I agree 100%. The fact that we are given the plot point of being born at a certain super high power level without training can yield massive power increases easily if they do train, allows for plenty of wiggle room for Uub.
ZombieVito wrote:
I have base Goku around Evil Boo [Gohan absorbed] by the ToP.
could you elaborate please? I don't see how he could be that weak.
