Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Though as far as the Gods beating people like Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta in the hand to hand fight when the opposite is shown, that's not even worth addressing.

Do you think Goku can beat around Toppo using kaioken?

He can beat Toppo around like Vegeta did. I don't see why not. He still wouldn't win though as Final Explosion was needed to overpower the Destruction Energy.
People are claiming that Initial SSBE Vegeta was equal to Kaioken Goku due to them fighting alongside each other, but they still showed the same side by side performance even after Vegeta's boost. There's no evidence that Vegeta is equal to Kaioken Goku before his boost and none that he's stronger afterwards. The story still treats them as equal after the TOP with the only mentioned difference being Ultra Instinct. So there's no real reason to go against the status quo.

[PFM18]

It doesn't really matter how much people want to repeat this. These arguments have no merit if the entire thing can easily be invalidated by one statement.

Super Saiyan Blue rivals the Gods. Perfect Blue which is simply equivalent to the current Blue in the anime forced Beerus to get serious in order to beat it. The same Perfect Blue which is only equal to the current anime Blue was stated to be strong enough to be a God candidate. And Beerus needed 10% against Vegeta.

The power of a God of Destruction includes their Destruction Energy. Someone can claim that the Destruction Energy allows them to push far above their weight since Vegeta needed Final Explosion to beat Toppo despite being way stronger, but that's about it. They could realistically beat anyone up to Super Saiyan Kefla because of it. Super Saiyan Kefla rivals the Spirit Bomb and Jiren neutralizing the Spirit Bomb was compared to a God of Destruction. So their Destruction Energy should be capable of handling that level of power at least. Nothing higher than that is ever implied.

Though as far as the Gods beating people like Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta in the hand to hand fight when the opposite is shown, that's not even worth addressing.

So did you just ignore everything that everybody just said or what?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It doesn't really matter how much people want to repeat this. These arguments have no merit if the entire thing can easily be invalidated by one statement.

Super Saiyan Blue rivals the Gods. Perfect Blue which is simply equivalent to the current Blue in the anime forced Beerus to get serious in order to beat it. The same Perfect Blue which is only equal to the current anime Blue was stated to be strong enough to be a God candidate. And Beerus needed 10% against Vegeta.

The power of a God of Destruction includes their Destruction Energy. Someone can claim that the Destruction Energy allows them to push far above their weight since Vegeta needed Final Explosion to beat Toppo despite being way stronger, but that's about it. They could realistically beat anyone up to Super Saiyan Kefla because of it. Super Saiyan Kefla rivals the Spirit Bomb and Jiren neutralizing the Spirit Bomb was compared to a God of Destruction. So their Destruction Energy should be capable of handling that level of power at least. Nothing higher than that is ever implied.

Though as far as the Gods beating people like Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta in the hand to hand fight when the opposite is shown, that's not even worth addressing.

So did you just ignore everything that everybody just said or what?

Well you and whoever else is advocating the same thing as you are just ignoring what's explicitly stated in the story. So when you post nothing relevant, there's nothing to refute. Advocating for the dictionary to be rewritten and for inconvenient statements to be ignored sadly isn't an argument.

Regardless, nobody substantiated the Gods being as physically strong as they claim. It's pretty obvious that you aren't grasping the discussion at hand.

[PFM18]

It doesn't really matter how much people want to repeat this. These arguments have no merit if the entire thing can easily be invalidated by one statement.

Super Saiyan Blue rivals the Gods. Perfect Blue which is simply equivalent to the current Blue in the anime forced Beerus to get serious in order to beat it. The same Perfect Blue which is only equal to the current anime Blue was stated to be strong enough to be a God candidate. And Beerus needed 10% against Vegeta.

The power of a God of Destruction includes their Destruction Energy. Someone can claim that the Destruction Energy allows them to push far above their weight since Vegeta needed Final Explosion to beat Toppo despite being way stronger, but that's about it. They could realistically beat anyone up to Super Saiyan Kefla because of it. Super Saiyan Kefla rivals the Spirit Bomb and Jiren neutralizing the Spirit Bomb was compared to a God of Destruction. So their Destruction Energy should be capable of handling that level of power at least. Nothing higher than that is ever implied.

Though as far as the Gods beating people like Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta in the hand to hand fight when the opposite is shown, that's not even worth addressing.

So did you just ignore everything that everybody just said or what?

Well you and whoever else is advocating the same thing as you are just ignoring what's explicitly stated in the story. So when you post nothing relevant, there's nothing to refute. Advocating for the dictionary to be rewritten and for inconvenient statements to be ignored sadly isn't an argument.

Regardless, nobody substantiated the Gods being as physically strong as they claim. It's pretty obvious that you aren't grasping the discussion at hand.

I think you are taking an obscure line done in the first 10 episodes of the series, that may or may not have purposely been a lie, and another statement that is extremely ambiguous especially within the context of this series, way too seriously. Everything else points to the opposite being true

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I think you are taking an obscure line done in the first 10 episodes of the series, that may or may not have purposely been a lie, and another statement that is extremely ambiguous especially within the context of this series, way too seriously. Everything else points to the opposite being true

The statements mean what they mean. In no way are they ambiguous. Take the "ambiguous" word in question and insert it's definition in the sentence it's used. It says exactly what I'm saying it does.

You keep saying that "everything else" points to what you're saying being true but all of the arguments presented have been mediocre at best to the point where they can't even be called arguments because they don't really say anything. It's to the point where the sources "proving" your point literally have nothing to do with what you're saying at all, nor do they say anything in general that blatantly contradicts previous material.

And this "everything else" is taken into account with all of the statements and events I brought up. Not sure how you intend to form an honest argument with the amount of cherrypicking that you're advocating for. Everything is taken into account when forming an assessment, not only the "everything else" that you personally want to count.

[Hugo Boss]

Though as far as the Gods beating people like Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta in the hand to hand fight when the opposite is shown, that's not even worth addressing.

Do you think Goku can beat around Toppo using kaioken?

He can beat Toppo around like Vegeta did. I don't see why not. He still wouldn't win though as Final Explosion was needed to overpower the Destruction Energy.
People are claiming that Initial SSBE Vegeta was equal to Kaioken Goku due to them fighting alongside each other, but they still showed the same side by side performance even after Vegeta's boost. There's no evidence that Vegeta is equal to Kaioken Goku before his boost and none that he's stronger afterwards. The story still treats them as equal after the TOP with the only mentioned difference being Ultra Instinct. So there's no real reason to go against the status quo.

So, in your opinion, how much of kaioken do you think Goku needs to match Toppo?

[ZombieVito]

Is there anything going against Kefla having a stronger boost from fusing than Vegetto?

It would kinda work since the girls seem to have way more potential than Goku and Vegeta. Caulifla managed to master SS2 in what? Less than 2 days?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Do you think Goku can beat around Toppo using kaioken?

He can beat Toppo around like Vegeta did. I don't see why not. He still wouldn't win though as Final Explosion was needed to overpower the Destruction Energy.
People are claiming that Initial SSBE Vegeta was equal to Kaioken Goku due to them fighting alongside each other, but they still showed the same side by side performance even after Vegeta's boost. There's no evidence that Vegeta is equal to Kaioken Goku before his boost and none that he's stronger afterwards. The story still treats them as equal after the TOP with the only mentioned difference being Ultra Instinct. So there's no real reason to go against the status quo.

So, in your opinion, how much of kaioken do you think Goku needs to match Toppo?

In terms of hand to hand combat, 2x is more than enough. Beerus was sweating over the basic level and Whis questioned Beerus being in trouble against it.

[Bullza]

With the Heroes anime coming up I combed through the Game Openings and the manga to come up with a ranking of sorts. Bare in mind that kind of like Super, there are differences between the anime and manga so it isn't exact. I've also never played the game so don't know what information may have been given there too.

~~~~~~~~~
Mechikabura

Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta

Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Final Form Mira
Super Saiyan 4 Goku | Vegeta | Broly
Dark Masked King

Super Saiyan Gogeta
Janemba (Dark Dragon Ball)

Demon God Kid Buu (Dark Dragon Ball) | Vegito
Gohanks | Gotenks

Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 3 Trunks

Turles (Dark Dragon Ball)
Demon God Dabura | Gravy | Salsa | Shroom | Towa | Demigra

Kid Buu (Dark Dragon Ball)
Lord Slug (Dark Dragon Ball)

Goku | Vegeta

Cell (Dark Dragon Ball)
Frieza (Dark Dragon Ball)

Trunks | Gohan
Mira
~~~~~~~~~~~

The Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta are what would be the Universe Survival Saga version of those characters.

Also it's a different game but Final Form Mira was implied to be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Golden Frieza from Resurrection F in the Xenoverse 2 game.

Oh and one of the newer game opening seems to imply that Base Goku, Vegeta and Future Trunks (all DBS versions) are about on par.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Is there anything going against Kefla having a stronger boost from fusing than Vegetto?

It would kinda work since the girls seem to have way more potential than Goku and Vegeta. Caulifla managed to master SS2 in what? Less than 2 days?

Less than an hour

[Kenneth La Torre]

I was thinking that its halirious how the show doesnt give a fuck about where characters stand in power, and we have to stick to promotional material or posters that have statements.

Like honestly, if the 129 UI goku = or > beerus promotional poster wasnt a thing, whe would probably be thinking beerus was still a benchmark for goku, as no statements were made comparing goku or jiren to beerus.

[PFM18]

I was thinking that its halirious how the show doesnt give a fuck about where characters stand in power, and we have to stick to promotional material or posters that have statements.

Like honestly, if the 129 UI goku = or > beerus promotional poster wasnt a thing, whe would probably be thinking beerus was still a benchmark for goku, as no statements were made comparing goku or jiren to beerus.

Except if it wasn't for the promotional poster then it was still abundantly clear that Jiren and Completed UI were both stronger than Beerus. Several times it was either shown or implied it was just never explicitly stated. The only thing the promotional poster gave us is a more precise point as to when Goku equaled/surpassed Beerus rather than just knowing when he is in Completed UI he is stronger than Beerus.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I was thinking that its halirious how the show doesnt give a fuck about where characters stand in power, and we have to stick to promotional material or posters that have statements.

Like honestly, if the 129 UI goku = or > beerus promotional poster wasnt a thing, whe would probably be thinking beerus was still a benchmark for goku, as no statements were made comparing goku or jiren to beerus.

Except if it wasn't for the promotional poster then it was still abundantly clear that Jiren and Completed UI were both stronger than Beerus. Several times it was either shown or implied it was just never explicitly stated. The only thing the promotional poster gave us is a more precise point as to when Goku equaled/surpassed Beerus rather than just knowing when he is in Completed UI he is stronger than Beerus.

Still, statements wouldnt kill anyone. And I'm pretty sure you are aware, that being hinted is not the same as being stated. Look around just in this website, there is still debate of wether ssj kefla equals a spirit bomb, if jiren (before his 130 power up) is even above or on par with beerus in power, if toppo is comparable to current hakaishins. The list goes on, and its because super has been vauge in nearly all power scaling matters. We didnt even know ssb vegito was comparable to beerus before the manga touched upon that.

[Miracles]

Beerus would lose to Vegeta since Final Explosion>Destruction Energy as already shown...
Beerus could probably beat SSJ Kefla due to the Destruction Energy since her power rivals the Spirit Bomb and Jiren neutralizing that was a God of Destruction level feat. He would be outmatched in hand to hand though. Against SSJ2 Kefla, he's out of luck. She has the power to one shot a universe in that form and was stronger than initial UI Goku, whom was equal to suppressed Jiren whom was compared to a God of Destruction. She would blow away his Destruction Energy along with the universe.

Hakai power varies, that's why Vegeta said about Toppo, so this is "his" destruction power.
To think Beerus's power is the same level of Toopo's just cause he became a god of destruction is headcannon.

Also, how can Kefla and UI omen Goku be stronger than Beerus when no statement of comparison was given. That is more head trauma from you.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Beerus would lose to Vegeta since Final Explosion>Destruction Energy as already shown...
Beerus could probably beat SSJ Kefla due to the Destruction Energy since her power rivals the Spirit Bomb and Jiren neutralizing that was a God of Destruction level feat. He would be outmatched in hand to hand though. Against SSJ2 Kefla, he's out of luck. She has the power to one shot a universe in that form and was stronger than initial UI Goku, whom was equal to suppressed Jiren whom was compared to a God of Destruction. She would blow away his Destruction Energy along with the universe.

Hakai power varies, that's why Vegeta said about Toppo, so this is "his" destruction power.
To think Beerus's power is the same level of Toopo's just cause he became a god of destruction is headcannon.

Also, lol at Kefla and UI omen Goku being stronger than Beerus when no statement of comparison was given. That is more head trauma from you.

Of course not at kefla and Ui omen 2nd trigger. Tho people have reasons to believe that UI omen 3rd trigger is at least as strong as beerus, since we have official source stating such a thing.

But yes we can assume no other character before 129 goku and jiren are at least as strong as beerus.

[Miracles]

Of course not at kefla and Ui omen 2nd trigger. Tho people have reasons to believe that UI omen 3rd trigger is at least as strong as beerus, since we have official source stating such a thing.

But yes we can assume no other character before 129 goku and jiren are at least as strong as beerus.

Nor can we outright say above Beerus cause no statement of comparisons actually came from the canon source [manga/anime].

No one ever heard of stronger until proven weaker.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Of course not at kefla and Ui omen 2nd trigger. Tho people have reasons to believe that UI omen 3rd trigger is at least as strong as beerus, since we have official source stating such a thing.

But yes we can assume no other character before 129 goku and jiren are at least as strong as beerus.

Nor can we outright say above Beerus cause no statement of comparisons actually came from the canon source [manga/anime].

No one ever heard of stronger until proven weaker.

Yes, and UI goku and jiren are proven stronger, because we have sources stating so. One of them has a form that no god of destruction has attained, and the other fought and at some points had the edge over said form (of course he had to break his limits to do so)

[Miracles]

Yes, and UI goku and jiren are proven stronger, because we have sources stating so. One of them has a form that no god of destruction has attained, and the other fought and at some points had the edge over said form (of course he had to break his limits to do so)

You know that isn't proof right? Just having a form one does not SUPPOSEDLY have doesn't make one stronger than the other. Also, an ambiguous statement in a magazine isn't authoritative.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Yes, and UI goku and jiren are proven stronger, because we have sources stating so. One of them has a form that no god of destruction has attained, and the other fought and at some points had the edge over said form (of course he had to break his limits to do so)

You know that isn't proof right? Just having a form one does not have doesn't make one stronger than the other. Also, an ambiguous statement in a magazine isn't authoritative.

Yes it is. And UI is a form that is stated to be beyond gods of destruction in more than just that magazine. Beerus has nothing going for him to be above jiren or goku. Even if beerus was above belmod (which could very well be the case), jiren is also beyond belmod, and lets not forget that he got exponentially stronger in episode 130 by breaking his limits.

An official magazine is all we need.

[Miracles]

Yes it is. And UI is a form that is stated to be beyond gods of destruction in more than just that magazine. Beerus has nothing going for him to be above jiren or goku. Even if beerus was above belmod (which could very well be the case), jiren is also beyond belmod, and lets not forget that he got exponentially stronger in episode 130 by breaking his limits.

An official magazine is all we need.

What we need is the magazine to have the same statement in the canon source material. It wasn't.
How do you know Beerus has nothing going for him to be above Jiren and Goku?
A generic statement about UI being above the state of gods isn't proof either. The gods power varies.