Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

If the Broly movie is any indication, transformation capabilities seems to play a role in the power of the fusion.

At this point, I'm convinced that this is the case.

It's... not clearly established, but I don't think the boosts associated with fusion techniques ever truly were, so I'm a little more forgiving of it. It's much easier to swallow when you realize that it's probably accounting for what the story deems as Goku/Vegeta's "full power", which naturally includes the strongest transformations they can access at will.

[PFM18]

If the Broly movie is any indication, transformation capabilities seems to play a role in the power of the fusion.

At this point, I'm convinced that this is the case.

It's... not clearly established, but I don't think the boosts associated with fusion techniques ever truly were, so I'm a little more forgiving of it. It's much easier to swallow when you realize that it's probably accounting for what the story deems as Goku/Vegeta's "full power", which naturally includes the strongest transformations they can access at will.

It isn't explicit about it, but the idea of two bodies becoming one and being stronger is a strange concept to begin with. And you're right, transformations aren't anything more than a reflection of that character's max ouput of ki/full-power, so logically it would make sense that their highest transformation would be factored into the strength of the Base fusion. First we had the A*B stuff in the supplementary material, then we had "the sum of the parts multiplied tens of times" which is vague, and not necessarily even corroborated by the fusions that we see. So it isn't as though this goes against anything that was established before, because nothing was ever firmly established in the first place.

[ZombieVito]

In this new scan it mentions that Vegetto and Gogeta are "equally matched"
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1070890625803804672

Excellent.

This also confirms Goku and Vegeta arent multiple times stronger since the FT arc as others have said.

[Miracles]

According to BOG's narration. The bold is factually wrong. No fusion would be stronger than SSJG Goku back then.

I’m pretty sure Goku told in the extended version of the movie that a fusion of him and Vegeta wouldn’t beat Beerus and wondered about how SSG would do, but Goku never tried fusions against Beerus. Besides, SSG failed. So, there was nothing really confirming which method would be superior. Only guesses.

By the way, without the recent material, I think it makes sense to think that SSG was stronger than the fusions (I thought that too). But based on the new spoilers, if SSG was intended to be superior, they completely changed their mind.

SSG did fail but it was prophesied by the oracle fish that the SSG will be the one to give Beerus a challenge, not fusion. Based on that story point a fusion wouldn't have done better than god back then.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Not even m20 ssg Gogeta could beat Beerus. His fight with Goku was basically Goku vs Krillin in recruitment arc

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

SSBE Vegeta beat down a God of Destruction despite only being on the level of SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku. He then overpowered their Destruction Energy with Final Explosion. So Gogeta and thus Vegito are capable of overwhelming a God of Destruction with the standard Super Saiyan since they would be far stronger than 20x Super Saiyan Blue.

SSB Gogeta>SSJ Gogeta>SSBE Vegeta>God of Destruction>Base Gogeta

[ZombieVito]

SSBE Vegeta beat down a God of Destruction despite only being on the level of SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku. He then overpowered their Destruction Energy with Final Explosion. So Gogeta and thus Vegito are capable of overwhelming a God of Destruction with the standard Super Saiyan since they would be far stronger than 20x Super Saiyan Blue.

SSB Gogeta>SSJ Gogeta>SSBE Vegeta>God of Destruction>Base Gogeta

He wasn't at this level when he beat Toppo.

He got a rage boost.

The fusions can't beat a GoD with just Super Saiyan. They need Blue.

[RecolorSaiyan]

It took ssb gogeta to beat a beerus level fighter more or less. Neither goku (sans ui) or vegeta at their fp could beat a real GoD unless you are of the belief that Beerus is hundreds-thousands of times above the other GoDs

[PFM18]

In this new scan it mentions that Vegetto and Gogeta are "equally matched"
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1070890625803804672

Excellent.

This also confirms Goku and Vegeta arent multiple times stronger since the FT arc as others have said.

how does this confirm that exactly?

[wolflonnie]

In this new scan it mentions that Vegetto and Gogeta are "equally matched"
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1070890625803804672

Excellent.

This also confirms Goku and Vegeta arent multiple times stronger since the FT arc as others have said.

how does this confirm that exactly?

I don't think it confirms it either, but:

Vegetto is stated to be equal or a bit stronger than Beerus.
Broly is stated to be around Beerus.
Gogeta SSB overpowers Broly.

By logic, if Goku and Vegete are THAT much stronger than their FT selves, Gogeta shouldn't need SSB to beat Broly.
In the end, I think Jiren, Broly, SSB Vegetto, SSB Gogeta and Beerus are all relative in power.

[Bullza]

I wonder if Super Saiyan Gogeta is going to be made out to be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku even.

Base Gogeta should be stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku I guess so I suppose it's feasible.

[Galan007]

I wonder if Super Saiyan Gogeta is going to be made out to be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku even.

Base Gogeta should be stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku I guess so I suppose it's feasible.

Based on the spoilers I've read, it almost sounds like base Gogeta already outperforms SSB Goku/Vegeta against SSJ Broly, and SSJ Gogeta vastly outperforms them.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

SSBE Vegeta beat down a God of Destruction despite only being on the level of SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku. He then overpowered their Destruction Energy with Final Explosion. So Gogeta and thus Vegito are capable of overwhelming a God of Destruction with the standard Super Saiyan since they would be far stronger than 20x Super Saiyan Blue.

SSB Gogeta>SSJ Gogeta>SSBE Vegeta>God of Destruction>Base Gogeta

He wasn't at this level when he beat Toppo.

He got a rage boost.

The fusions can't beat a GoD with just Super Saiyan. They need Blue.

He's officially stated to be no stronger than that level. So he was weaker than Blue Kaioken before his boost and as strong as it afterwards.

SSJ Gogeta can defeat a God of Destruction. Blue is overkill.

[PFM18]

Vegetto is stated to be equal or a bit stronger than Beerus.

That statement only occurs in the manga.

By logic, if Goku and Vegete are THAT much stronger than their FT selves, Gogeta shouldn't need SSB to beat Broly.
In the end, I think Jiren, Broly, SSB Vegetto, SSB Gogeta and Beerus are all relative in power.

Even if we assume that Beerus~SSB Vegetto, which the ToP fairly clearly indicates otherwise, then just because Gogeta needs SSB, doesn't mean they couldn't have gotten that much stronger. SSG/SSB appear to have a pretty large gap between them. That does tell us that they aren't several magnitudes stronger, but other than that we still don't know as far as I can tell.

I wonder if Super Saiyan Gogeta is going to be made out to be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku even.

Base Gogeta should be stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku I guess so I suppose it's feasible.

I know you aren't very interested in spoilers, so I will just say that you are right. SSJ Gogeta will be made out to be stronger than SSB Goku.

SSBE Vegeta beat down a God of Destruction despite only being on the level of SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku. He then overpowered their Destruction Energy with Final Explosion. So Gogeta and thus Vegito are capable of overwhelming a God of Destruction with the standard Super Saiyan since they would be far stronger than 20x Super Saiyan Blue.

SSB Gogeta>SSJ Gogeta>SSBE Vegeta>God of Destruction>Base Gogeta

He wasn't at this level when he beat Toppo.

He got a rage boost.

The fusions can't beat a GoD with just Super Saiyan. They need Blue.

He's officially stated to be no stronger than that level. So he was weaker than Blue Kaioken before his boost and as strong as it afterwards.

SSJ Gogeta can defeat a God of Destruction. Blue is overkill.

You're just taking the statement too literally. It was obviously referring to SSBE/SSBKK before Vegeta's boost. It is reflected the same way in the manga, Goku and Vegeta are equals until Vegeta gets a power-boost seemingly evolving the SSB form further. Both mediums portray it the same way, they are portrayed to be equals in 123, and it should be clear at this point. Besides, the writer that said that didn't even work on any episodes where SSBE Vegeta even appeared.

No, we don't really know that. SSB Gogeta is stronger than somebody who is questionably above Hakaishin, but he clearly needed SSB to win, so I don't see any reason to believe SSJ Gogeta is enough for a GoD.

[zarmack]

SSBE Vegeta beat down a God of Destruction despite only being on the level of SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku. He then overpowered their Destruction Energy with Final Explosion. So Gogeta and thus Vegito are capable of overwhelming a God of Destruction with the standard Super Saiyan since they would be far stronger than 20x Super Saiyan Blue.

SSB Gogeta>SSJ Gogeta>SSBE Vegeta>God of Destruction>Base Gogeta

He wasn't at this level when he beat Toppo.

He got a rage boost.

The fusions can't beat a GoD with just Super Saiyan. They need Blue.

He's officially stated to be no stronger than that level. So he was weaker than Blue Kaioken before his boost and as strong as it afterwards.

SSJ Gogeta can defeat a God of Destruction. Blue is overkill.

1. SSBE Vegeta and SSBKKx20 Goku were portrayed and stated to be equals in ep.123, which was before Vegeta got that extra power boost against GoD Toppo.

2. Gods of Destruction are not all equal in power, there is no single GoD level. Toppo is likely stronger then Sidra.

3. You are making the false assumption that SSBKKx20 Goku had the same strength throughout the whole ToP, when in reality the one in ep.123 and beyond is way stronger than the 1st UI Omen.

[ZombieVito]

how does this confirm that exactly?

Because Piccolo said that smaller gains make bigger gains for fusion and because Blue Gogeta isn't dimensions apart from Vegetto Blue who is close to Beerus, then we can conclude that the gains for Goku and Vegeta weren't that much as some people assumed.

I wouldn't even be surprised if UI Goku is said to be stronger than Gogeta in the future, making the difference even smaller from him and Vegetto Blue.

[zarmack]

In this new scan it mentions that Vegetto and Gogeta are "equally matched"
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1070890625803804672

Excellent.

This also confirms Goku and Vegeta arent multiple times stronger since the FT arc as others have said.

No it doesn't. It only means that the power boost from both Potara and finger fusion are equal. There are way too many statements and feats that show that Goku and Vegeta did get way stronger throughout the ToP.

[zarmack]

how does this confirm that exactly?

Because Piccolo said that smaller gains make bigger gains for fusion and because Blue Gogeta isn't dimensions apart from Vegetto Blue who is close to Beerus, then we can conclude that the gains for Goku and Vegeta weren't that much as some people assumed.

I wouldn't even be surprised if UI Goku is said to be stronger than Gogeta in the future, making the difference even smaller from him and Vegetto Blue.

That is some pretty bad logic right there. How in the world does that imply Goku and Vegeta didn't get much stronger since the Black arc?

And the statement about about Black arc Vegito = Beerus is manga only (which doesn't have the same powerscaling as the anime), and even Toyotaro said himself in interview that the statement by Shin wasn't mean't to be an absolute fact.

[ZombieVito]

No it doesn't. It only means that the power boost from both Potara and finger fusion are equal. There are way too many statements and feats that show that Goku and Vegeta did get way stronger throughout the ToP.

It does.

If Goku and Vegeta grow even twice as stronger after the FT arc the Gogeta Blue should be stronger than even Whis and that obviously isn't the case.

And there's not a single concrete statement that say they grew stronger in their base forms in the ToP.

That is some pretty bad logic right there. How in the world does that imply Goku and Vegeta didn't get much stronger since the Black arc?

And the statement about about Black arc Vegito = Beerus is manga only (which doesn't have the same powerscaling as the anime), and even Toyotaro said himself in interview that the statement by Shin wasn't mean't to be an absolute fact.

It's not my logic, it's the manga's.

Small gains make bigger ones once fused.

[PFM18]

If Goku and Vegeta grow even twice as stronger after the FT arc the Gogeta Blue should be stronger than even Whis and that obviously isn't the case.

We have no idea how strong Whis actually is, so that isn't anything more than speculation.

And there's not a single concrete statement that say they grew stronger in their base forms in the ToP.

Correct.

It's not my logic, it's the manga's.

Small gains make bigger ones once fused.

Still, SSB Vegetto~Beerus is manga-only and we have implications that the opposite is true in the ToP of the anime.

Because Piccolo said that smaller gains make bigger gains for fusion and because Blue Gogeta isn't dimensions apart from Vegetto Blue who is close to Beerus, then we can conclude that the gains for Goku and Vegeta weren't that much as some people assumed.

We still have no reason to believe that Vegetto Blue and Beerus are close to each other in the anime.