Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RecolorSaiyan]

1.) Like others have said the stacked ssg doesn't give anywhere near the boost ritual ssg gave. (Not saying i agree with this being the case but it seems to be whats portrayed)

2.) A fusion warriors base power is possible dependent on the max power of the fusees. Would explain why Base Kafla could smoke ssg goku and Base gogeta is > SSB Goku and Vegeta

[Helios518]

So how can Super Saiyan God Goku be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito in Battle of Gods but now Super Saiyan Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

It's worth noting that when Goku mentioned Fusion wouldn't be able to stand up to Beerus, he hadn't yet obtained Super Saiyan God.

If it's true that a base Fusion/Potara warrior always takes their components' full power into account from the start, then the associated boost is dynamic and will always increase as Goku and Vegeta become stronger.

This is the only in-universe reason I could see happening that ties everything up (albeit give really crazy power jumps).

[PFM18]

1.) Like others have said the stacked ssg doesn't give anywhere near the boost ritual ssg gave. (Not saying i agree with this being the case but it seems to be whats portrayed)

2.) A fusion warriors base power is possible dependent on the max power of the fusees. Would explain why Base Kafla could smoke ssg goku and Base gogeta is > SSB Goku and Vegeta

Yeah, one or both of these is sufficient to explain this. I personally believe both.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

1. SSBE Vegeta and SSBKKx20 Goku were portrayed and stated to be equals in ep.123, which was before Vegeta got that extra power boost against GoD Toppo.

2. Gods of Destruction are not all equal in power, there is no single GoD level. Toppo is likely stronger then Sidra.

3. You are making the false assumption that SSBKKx20 Goku had the same strength throughout the whole ToP, when in reality the one in ep.123 and beyond is way stronger than the 1st UI Omen.

No they weren't stated to be equals in 123. The only statement comparing them is the director's statement which states that SSBE is an equal power to SSB Kaioken. So if Vegeta is at most Goku's equal after everything is said and done, then he was weaker before.

There are no significant differences between the Gods. None of them can stomp the others as shown so if you can stomp any of them you can stomp all of them.

And no it isn't a false assumption that SSB Kaioken Goku was the same strength throughout the tournament. It isn't stated that he got any stronger outside of Ultra Instinct.

1. There were stated and shown as equals in ep.123. You are forgetting that Goku gets a general power boost after each time he uses UI (that's why each UI Omen was stronger than the last), so Gok using UI one last time in ep.129 would have equalized him and Vegeta without UI afterwards.

2. Beerus in the manga was shown to WAY above the rest of the GoDs, and there's nothing in the anime that says they was relative in power either.

3. It IS false to assume SSBKKx20 was the same in power throughout the ToP. You are making the "transformations are tiers" fallacy. SSBKKx20 and SSBE in ep.123 were shown to be way stronger than even the 1st UI Omen (since they forced Jiren to use much more of his power than he did in the hour special, as pointed out by Belmod). Transformations in DB are multipliers of base, so if a transformation got stronger than logically that means their base did. Hell, Caulifla in her rematch with fatigued SSJ2 Goku pointed out that he was much stronger than when they fought in SSJ2 last time (despite having full stamina back then). That's just one of many examples.

There were not stated to be equal in 123. Period. They were "shown" to be equal in 127 hence them showing parity during their assault against Jiren if we are going by visuals. Never is it stated that Goku gets a general power boost. He drew more power out of UI each time. Only UI is stated to have gotten stronger, not any of Goku's lesser forms. As in the "multiplier" of the form increased.

Beerus was beat up no different than any of the other Gods. If he was way stronger then that wouldn't have happened, so this gap your claiming exists is at most paper thin.
Initially he was shown dodging them due to an imperfect UI and would've taken some out due to strategy, but his power is hardly any different from theirs.

Jiren using a hint of his true power had nothing to do with Goku's power. He upped his strength after almost being eliminated due to Goku's strategy. I don't see what Goku vs Caulifla has to do with anything. Goku was using more power in his rematch than he did the first time. As in he held back against Caulifla in their first bout.

[ankokudaishogun]

Goku&Vegeta:BR are much stronger than Goku&Vegeta:BoG.

Therefore Gogeta:BR is stronger than a hypothetical Vegetto:BoG

That's it.

[zarmack]

Goku&Vegeta:BR are much stronger than Goku&Vegeta:BoG.

Therefore Gogeta:BR is stronger than a hypothetical Vegetto:BoG

That's it.

Exactly, its simple logic

[zarmack]

No they weren't stated to be equals in 123. The only statement comparing them is the director's statement which states that SSBE is an equal power to SSB Kaioken. So if Vegeta is at most Goku's equal after everything is said and done, then he was weaker before.

There are no significant differences between the Gods. None of them can stomp the others as shown so if you can stomp any of them you can stomp all of them.

And no it isn't a false assumption that SSB Kaioken Goku was the same strength throughout the tournament. It isn't stated that he got any stronger outside of Ultra Instinct.

1. There were stated and shown as equals in ep.123. You are forgetting that Goku gets a general power boost after each time he uses UI (that's why each UI Omen was stronger than the last), so Gok using UI one last time in ep.129 would have equalized him and Vegeta without UI afterwards.

2. Beerus in the manga was shown to WAY above the rest of the GoDs, and there's nothing in the anime that says they was relative in power either.

3. It IS false to assume SSBKKx20 was the same in power throughout the ToP. You are making the "transformations are tiers" fallacy. SSBKKx20 and SSBE in ep.123 were shown to be way stronger than even the 1st UI Omen (since they forced Jiren to use much more of his power than he did in the hour special, as pointed out by Belmod). Transformations in DB are multipliers of base, so if a transformation got stronger than logically that means their base did. Hell, Caulifla in her rematch with fatigued SSJ2 Goku pointed out that he was much stronger than when they fought in SSJ2 last time (despite having full stamina back then). That's just one of many examples.

There were not stated to be equal in 123. Period. They were "shown" to be equal in 127 hence them showing parity during their assault against Jiren if we are going by visuals. Never is it stated that Goku gets a general power boost. He drew more power out of UI each time. Only UI is stated to have gotten stronger, not any of Goku's lesser forms. As in the "multiplier" of the form increased.

Beerus was beat up no different than any of the other Gods. If he was way stronger then that wouldn't have happened, so this gap your claiming exists is at most paper thin.
Initially he was shown dodging them due to an imperfect UI and would've taken some out due to strategy, but his power is hardly any different from theirs.

Jiren using a hint of his true power had nothing to do with Goku's power. He upped his strength after almost being eliminated due to Goku's strategy. I don't see what Goku vs Caulifla has to do with anything. Goku was using more power in his rematch than he did the first time. As in he held back against Caulifla in their first bout.

Then explain how SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta were able to put up a way better fight against a stronger Jiren in ep.123-127 (who powered up before getting double-teamed) than SSBKKx20 Goku did in the hour special. If they didn't get any stronger in their lesser forms that wouldn't be possible, since that's how DB works.

[ZombieVito]

So how can Super Saiyan God Goku be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito in Battle of Gods but now Super Saiyan Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

Shouldn't current Super Saiyan God Goku be above any Super Saiyan Gogeta just as Super Saiyan God Goku back then was stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito back then?

I always thought that by undergoing the ritual and obtaining god ki, Goku's base power increased. That + SSG boost is what makes him surpass Boo arc Vegetto.

Toppo does something similar in both anime and manga. He activates his god ki and grows stronger.

[Miracles]

Some of the topics being discussed is really all based on assumption due to Super's vagueness. There is no statement in the TOP saying "limit breaker" applied to overall strength. However, back in the Zamas arc it was stated that Goku grew from the battles against Black and Zamas. This was also the main reason why Zamas sought Goku's body, the Saiyans ability to grow after battle damage. We seen this major story piece demonstrated throughout that arc. Is TOEI's reasons for not repeating that narrative assumes the fans should remember that plot point from back then? Even if that is the case, Jiren still held back against a supposed stronger Goku and Vegeta. Using less power than before against Vegeta than he used against Kakarot in the special. It begs the question, If both grew why was Jiren able to continue sandbagging?

Vegetto's statement in the manga surpassing Beerus was just a question. It doesn't prove who is weaker or stronger. It does mean that they are comparable. Also, even tho we don't know the difference of power between the gods due to much of the manga's exhibition match off-paneled. It still gave Beerus more shine than anyone. The narrative implied more than once that Beerus and Quitela were competing for the throne. This does not include Belmond who was also subject to getting styled on by Beerus and was saved from Beerus hand blast. Belmond and Rumishi's attacks were not impressive as Beerus. Due to Beerus story importance, even tho it's not a stated fact, deep down, everyone knows Beerus is the strongest god. By how much, we don't know.

I think people forget, if SSJ Gogeta is stronger than Blue Goku that's because god powers amplified ALL modes. It was stated in BOG that SSJ "didn't power down that much" from god due to absorption. So a current SSJ Gogeta wouldn't surprise me if he was stronger than god level Goku. I prefer to wait for the movie tho to get full context.

With all that said, Gogeta and Vegetto being stated to be equal is a breath of fresh air from all the ambiguity we endured. I welcome it with open arms.

[ZombieVito]

Some of the topics being discussed is really all based on assumption due to Super's vagueness. There is no statement in the TOP saying "limit breaker" applied to overall strength. However, back in the Zamas arc it was stated that Goku grew from the battles against Black and Zamas. This was also the main reason why Zamas sought Goku's body, the Saiyans ability to grow after battle damage. We seen this major story piece demonstrated throughout that arc. Is TOEI's reasons for not repeating that narrative assumes the fans should remember that plot point from back then? Even if that is the case, Jiren still held back against a supposed stronger Goku and Vegeta. Using less power than before against Vegeta than he used against Kakarot in the special. It begs the question, If both grew why was Jiren able to continue sandbagging?

Vegetto's statement in the manga surpassing Beerus was just a question. It doesn't prove who is weaker or stronger. It does mean that they are comparable. Also, even tho we don't know the difference of power between the gods due to much of the manga's exhibition match off-paneled. It still gave Beerus more shine than anyone. The narrative implied more than once that Beerus and Quitela were competing for the throne. This does not include Belmond who was also subject to getting styled on by Beerus and was saved from Beerus hand blast. Belmond and Rumishi's attacks were not impressive as Beerus. Due to Beerus story importance, even tho it's not a stated fact, deep down, everyone knows Beerus is the strongest god. By how much, we don't know.

I think people forget, if SSJ Gogeta is stronger than Blue Goku that's because god powers amplified ALL modes. It was stated in BOG that SSJ "didn't power down that much" from god due to absorption. So a current SSJ Gogeta wouldn't surprise me if he was stronger than god level Goku. I prefer to wait for the movie tho to get full context.

With all that said, Gogeta and Vegetto being stated to be equal is a breath of fresh air from all the ambiguity we endured. I welcome it with open arms.

I remember that the only time Goku was stated to get stronger in the arc is when Black stated it in E64 when he remembers what happened in E61 while talking to Vegeta.

All the gods seemed comparable to me, Beerus just shined better thanks to his partial UI. Beerus, Belmod and Quitela are definitely the strongest but it shouldn't be by that much since the first 2 did get pretty beat up.

I do agree 100% with the last point. It's great to have finally confirmation where they stand between each other.

[Lukmendes]

Maybe Super Saiyan God just never was as strong as Super Saiyan Vegito after all.

Base Kefla was shown to be above Super Saiyan God Goku. He was tired so it's hard to say if he would still be when he was at full strength but maybe the movie will clear some things up.

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was a match for Ultra Instinct Goku to an extent so I suppose Super Saiyan Gogeta should be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

SS2 made no difference in Kefla's favor, she got her ass kicked all the same, her using it only showed that UI is that much of a boost.

1.) Like others have said the stacked ssg doesn't give anywhere near the boost ritual ssg gave. (Not saying i agree with this being the case but it seems to be whats portrayed)

2.) A fusion warriors base power is possible dependent on the max power of the fusees. Would explain why Base Kafla could smoke ssg goku and Base gogeta is > SSB Goku and Vegeta

Kefla is actualy what shows that fusions are only as strong as they need to be, since Kale was at best, above SS2 Goku, but he was handling himself well enough against her and Caulifla teaming up on him, then Kefla outclasses him with SSG while in base form? That makes Goku's statement from BoG make no sense since both Goku and Vegeta had SS2 and Goku had SS3, so base Vegetto would easily outclass SSG Goku but that isn't the case...

I remember that the only time Goku was stated to get stronger in the arc is when Black stated it in E64 when he remembers what happened in E61 while talking to Vegeta.

All the gods seemed comparable to me, Beerus just shined better thanks to his partial UI. Beerus, Belmod and Quitela are definitely the strongest but it shouldn't be by that much since the first 2 did get pretty beat up.

I do agree 100% with the last point. It's great to have finally confirmation where they stand between each other.

Beerus only used a bootleg UI for a bit before he was grabbed, after it he didn't use it anymore, he was still one of the last ones standing though, so that shows he's probably above them, but not by that much.

[ssj3kakarot]

Some of the topics being discussed is really all based on assumption due to Super's vagueness. There is no statement in the TOP saying "limit breaker" applied to overall strength. However, back in the Zamas arc it was stated that Goku grew from the battles against Black and Zamas. This was also the main reason why Zamas sought Goku's body, the Saiyans ability to grow after battle damage. We seen this major story piece demonstrated throughout that arc. Is TOEI's reasons for not repeating that narrative assumes the fans should remember that plot point from back then? Even if that is the case, Jiren still held back against a supposed stronger Goku and Vegeta. Using less power than before against Vegeta than he used against Kakarot in the special. It begs the question, If both grew why was Jiren able to continue sandbagging?

Vegetto's statement in the manga surpassing Beerus was just a question. It doesn't prove who is weaker or stronger. It does mean that they are comparable. Also, even tho we don't know the difference of power between the gods due to much of the manga's exhibition match off-paneled. It still gave Beerus more shine than anyone. The narrative implied more than once that Beerus and Quitela were competing for the throne. This does not include Belmond who was also subject to getting styled on by Beerus and was saved from Beerus hand blast. Belmond and Rumishi's attacks were not impressive as Beerus. Due to Beerus story importance, even tho it's not a stated fact, deep down, everyone knows Beerus is the strongest god. By how much, we don't know.

I think people forget, if SSJ Gogeta is stronger than Blue Goku that's because god powers amplified ALL modes. It was stated in BOG that SSJ "didn't power down that much" from god due to absorption. So a current SSJ Gogeta wouldn't surprise me if he was stronger than god level Goku. I prefer to wait for the movie tho to get full context.

With all that said, Gogeta and Vegetto being stated to be equal is a breath of fresh air from all the ambiguity we endured. I welcome it with open arms.

Just out of curiosity, where was it stated? Is it talking about how the two styles give an equal boost? I'm looking more to understand because I thought there was a line from Old Kai about how Potara was better than Fusion, meaning it gave a stronger power.

[Lukmendes]

Just out of curiosity, where was it stated? Is it talking about how the two styles give an equal boost? I'm looking more to understand because I thought there was a line from Old Kai about how Potara was better than Fusion, meaning it gave a stronger power.

Old Kai just says it's better in the same conversation he says that you just have to put on the earrings, and a bit before he said that Boo wouldn't let Goku do the fusion dance, and afterwards he says that the fusion is permanent, never at any point he hints that Potara is the stronger one, just better.

Anyways, both fusions being equal is from this:

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1070890625803804672

Although that might be retconned away eventualy, since guidebooks used to say Vegetto is the stronger one, and at least once in a magazine it was said Gogeta is the stronger one...

[Kenneth La Torre]

Some of the topics being discussed is really all based on assumption due to Super's vagueness. There is no statement in the TOP saying "limit breaker" applied to overall strength. However, back in the Zamas arc it was stated that Goku grew from the battles against Black and Zamas. This was also the main reason why Zamas sought Goku's body, the Saiyans ability to grow after battle damage. We seen this major story piece demonstrated throughout that arc. Is TOEI's reasons for not repeating that narrative assumes the fans should remember that plot point from back then? Even if that is the case, Jiren still held back against a supposed stronger Goku and Vegeta. Using less power than before against Vegeta than he used against Kakarot in the special. It begs the question, If both grew why was Jiren able to continue sandbagging?

Vegetto's statement in the manga surpassing Beerus was just a question. It doesn't prove who is weaker or stronger. It does mean that they are comparable. Also, even tho we don't know the difference of power between the gods due to much of the manga's exhibition match off-paneled. It still gave Beerus more shine than anyone. The narrative implied more than once that Beerus and Quitela were competing for the throne. This does not include Belmond who was also subject to getting styled on by Beerus and was saved from Beerus hand blast. Belmond and Rumishi's attacks were not impressive as Beerus. Due to Beerus story importance, even tho it's not a stated fact, deep down, everyone knows Beerus is the strongest god. By how much, we don't know.

I think people forget, if SSJ Gogeta is stronger than Blue Goku that's because god powers amplified ALL modes. It was stated in BOG that SSJ "didn't power down that much" from god due to absorption. So a current SSJ Gogeta wouldn't surprise me if he was stronger than god level Goku. I prefer to wait for the movie tho to get full context.

With all that said, Gogeta and Vegetto being stated to be equal is a breath of fresh air from all the ambiguity we endured. I welcome it with open arms.

Just out of curiosity, where was it stated? Is it talking about how the two styles give an equal boost? I'm looking more to understand because I thought there was a line from Old Kai about how Potara was better than Fusion, meaning it gave a stronger power.

New guide my dude. Current fusion has been retcon to equal potara

[ssj3kakarot]

Just out of curiosity, where was it stated? Is it talking about how the two styles give an equal boost? I'm looking more to understand because I thought there was a line from Old Kai about how Potara was better than Fusion, meaning it gave a stronger power.

Old Kai just says it's better in the same conversation he says that you just have to put on the earrings, and a bit before he said that Boo wouldn't let Goku do the fusion dance, and afterwards he says that the fusion is permanent, never at any point he hints that Potara is the stronger one, just better.

Anyways, both fusions being equal is from this:

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1070890625803804672

Although that might be retconned away eventualy, since guidebooks used to say Vegetto is the stronger one, and at least once in a magazine it was said Gogeta is the stronger one...

Where is that tweet from anyway?

Ultimately, I'm the kind of person that doesn't really care about what is shown outside the direct series/manga. I want to hear someone in universe say one is stronger, or weaker, etc. It's like the Daizenshuu 7th guide book says Potara produces a stronger fusion over the dance. To that sort of thing, I say bollocks.

I dont care which is stronger, nor do I really think one is better than the other on power alone. Dance is a million times better as a move since you can do it anytime and you dont need earings.

However, Potara does have a case that it SHOULD, in theory, be the stronger fusion. On premise that it is of godly nature. And by its showcase. Like many things Dragon ball, the transformations to follow are almost always the better transformations. Fusion dance was shown first with Gotenks, and Vegetto comes later. So you could look at it like they saved Potara for last because it's a better transformation.

I'll wait until Goku or Vegeta say something like " Man, Potara fusion sucks compared to Dance Dance eva-Fusion." If no line is ever given, they are equal. I enjoy reading all the salty people who have a lot invested in either camps. It makes my popcorn so much better!

[Lukmendes]

Where is that tweet from anyway?

As it's said in the tweets above, Weekly Jump.

However, Potara does have a case that it SHOULD, in theory, be the stronger fusion. On premise that it is of godly nature. And by its showcase. Like many things Dragon ball, the transformations to follow are almost always the better transformations. Fusion dance was shown first with Gotenks, and Vegetto comes later. So you could look at it like they saved Potara for last because it's a better transformation.

Vegetto being stronger than Gotenks hardly means Potara is the stronger fusion type, since Goku and Vegeta are far stronger than Goten and Trunks, Goku only really went for Potara since it was more convenient too, and even in DB a new power up can be worst than a previous one, since it happened once in Cell saga, Ultra Super Saiyan was a new form Vegeta got and Goku didn't think it was useful and just decided to get used with SS instead, so yeah, no matter how you look at it, with no outside info, which fusion is the stronger one is pretty moot, and even with outside info, still moot since they change their opinion every few years lol.

[zarmack]

Kefla is actualy what shows that fusions are only as strong as they need to be, since Kale was at best, above SS2 Goku, but he was handling himself well enough against her and Caulifla teaming up on him, then Kefla outclasses him with SSG while in base form? That makes Goku's statement from BoG make no sense since both Goku and Vegeta had SS2 and Goku had SS3, so base Vegetto would easily outclass SSG Goku but that isn't the case...

This is a false analogy. because:

1. Kale and Caulifla are not comparable to Buu arc Goku and Vegeta

2. Pre-ritual SSG and Post-ritual SSG are 2 different levels of power-ups

Potara fusion apparently is the max power of both partners added together (then multiplied "tens of times" according to Vados) making the base result. That's why Base Vegito was stronger than SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc and stronger than SSB Goku in the Black arc. Mastered Berzerk Kale wasn't too far away from SSG Goku in power, so base Kefla being stronger than him isn't a stretch.

[Bullza]

I always thought that by undergoing the ritual and obtaining god ki, Goku's base power increased. That + SSG boost is what makes him surpass Boo arc Vegetto.

Toppo does something similar in both anime and manga. He activates his god ki and grows stronger.

The Base power definitely increased. I suppose if Base Goku was stronger than the previous Super Saiyan 3 Goku then any Base Vegito/Gogeta would be stronger than any hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito/Gogeta from Battle of Gods or earlier.

So unless Super Saiyan God's strength remained relatively the same throughout then I don't know.

Super Saiyan Kefla seemed like she was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku. I suppose it would make sense that Super Saiyan Gogeta would be as well.

Then again Super Saiyan Kefla should logically be stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta.

[Sora Saiyan]

I always thought that by undergoing the ritual and obtaining god ki, Goku's base power increased. That + SSG boost is what makes him surpass Boo arc Vegetto.

Toppo does something similar in both anime and manga. He activates his god ki and grows stronger.

The Base power definitely increased. I suppose if Base Goku was stronger than the previous Super Saiyan 3 Goku then any Base Vegito/Gogeta would be stronger than any hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito/Gogeta from Battle of Gods or earlier.

So unless Super Saiyan God's strength remained relatively the same throughout then I don't know.

Super Saiyan Kefla seemed like she was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku. I suppose it would make sense that Super Saiyan Gogeta would be as well.

Then again Super Saiyan Kefla should logically be stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta.

It gets interesting with the theory of a fusion being stronger than the fusees most powerful forms whilst still in base. This movie could help to support this theory if base Gogeta is stronger than SSJB Goku and Vegeta. If that it’s the case it becomes more apparent that the anime just did a very poor job at showing off how powerful Vegetto was, and the Vegetto showing in the manga is the true representation of his power. Now that we know Gogeta and Vegetto are equal we will finally know how powerful Vegetto was meant to be. Obviously if Gogeta does end up being stronger than Blue Goku and Vegeta then he would be basically be stronger than SSJ Kefla in his base form too, same for Vegetto.

I usually support this theory, so this will be make or break for it.

[PFM18]

Then again Super Saiyan Kefla should logically be stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta.

Huh? How so?