Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Sora Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:19 am
Location: Destiny Islands

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:06 pm

I’m not gonna comment on Jiren, but one thing that must be taken into consideration is that if Broly is a tiny bit stronger than Beerus, and it seems likely given the phrasing Goku used, it doesn’t mean Broly has much of a chance in a fight. Beerus very likely has that incomplete UI that was shown in the manga, coupled with his GoD abilities and we have an entirely different animal in a 1 on 1 battle. Also, even though Broly has likely surpassed Beerus in raw power Beerus could just decide to train and become stronger.

User avatar
ssj3kakarot
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:47 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:11 pm

I personally like the idea that Beerus hasn't been surpassed. I believe there is plenty of evidence giving credence to this belief. However, this is unique to everything Dragonball. Goku always surpasses everyone he encounters that is stronger or teaches under.Mr Popo, Kami, King Kai, all the Kais. You start to feel like Goku is the only one of significance because all these "guardians" of the universe are being outplayed by Goku at every turn. The concept of Beerus remaing on top for so long after their 1st encounter is rather rare, maybe never heard of.

The big flaw behind this whole concept is the moment Goku clearly, undeniably surpasses Beerus, everyone else needs to be comparable to Goku in some way, and thus everyone else by default will surpass Beerus. Thus making the old benchmark seem like a joke. I wish this wasn't the case. I'm okay with Goku, and others surpassing people of Beerus's caliber if its done tastefully. However, you come to a point where you can't have another Tier above the last Tier sorta thing. If someone come outs stronger than Zeno, thats kinda stupid. So If there are stronger enemies out there, then I feel like they should work within the parameters they have creating in order for things to be significant.

The new manga villian, Moora(spelling) is a good concept of working within previously determined parameters. Its what makes this next arc seem so exciting to me.

Sorry, end rabbit trail. Since Beerus is such a significant goal post, I think when he is surpassed, if he is surpassed, it will clear to everyone. There wont be a debate.
" I swear on that faith I can never back down now" - Goku

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3745
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:38 pm

Amir wrote:
Miracles wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
No, Whis never said that Jiren is only stronger than the GoD of his universe in the anime (this happens only in the manga). He says that Jiren is on the same level as a GoD, maybe stronger (he does not say that Jiren is stronger than '' his '' GoD, he just says '' a GoD, '' generalizing the entire GoD class) . That is, Beerus is included. Jiren has at least the same level of these GoDs and at the end of ToP it gets more powerful. So I do not see why assuming he not overcame the GoDs
Everything you stated is wrong...

https://imgur.com/vidgif/video?url=http ... vrNHKBp098

Whis just confirmed in the TOP that the "rumor" about A motal being stronger than A god is Jiren and Belmond in that very instance. He just matched the Rumor being true about two people after watching Jiren and Belmond. Nothing about god'S in general. You should reread the story my man.
Why do you keep saying that Whis was talking about Belmod? He literally never mentions Belmod. That only happens in the manga. He just says a god, which means any god, not a specific one, he even says Jiren perhaps surpassed the GoD state itself right after that, which further supports the fact he was talking about GoDs in general.

If Jiren perhaps surpassed the state of a GoD in a suppressed state and later became much much stronger, then he is stronger than Beerus, that's no headcanon, It's common sense. The show doesn't have to direcrtly state: "Jiren is stronger than Beerus" for it to be confirmed.

Also lets still say Whis was talking about Belmod . If Belmod is indeed that GoD that beat Beerus in arm wrestling, then they at least have to be very relative and comparable in strength (not headcanon, but rather obvious common sense) going logically and narratively, and Jiren still vastly surpassed that.

All the evidence point toward Jiren. You hace to prove that Beerus is above Jiren, not the other way around.
Whis was being general about the rumor concerning a mortal being stronger than a god the first time he brought it up. THEN in the TOP Whis confirms the "rumor" being true about A god that can not defeat A mortal after seeing Jiren and Belmond. Whis and Beerus never specified WHO beat him in arm wrestling but it was not Belmond. Cause at first Whis didn't even know which god and mortal until the TOP. Whis or Beerus didn't even say it was Belmond in the TOP after finding out he was the god who couldn't defeat the mortal. It's stated in both anime and manga that Belmond is the one who can't defeat Jiren, not all the gods. That is the fans illusion. No one stated Beerus was inferior to anybody not even Broly.

So yes, you are using headcannon when saying Beerus has been surpassed, not the facts.

ankokudaishogun
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1094
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:32 pm

Can I get a confirmation the "GoD stronger than Beerus" is the same GoD in "a mortal a GoD cannot defeat"?


I remember those two sentences being separated, if consecutive to each other

User avatar
Zamasu55
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1784
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:39 pm

Miracles wrote:
Zamasu55 wrote:
Miracles wrote: Lets see, nowhere did it state that god Toppo was on Beerus level. Being like a god of destruction does not mean equal in power or around Beerus. Naturally, power varies among the gods...

You say: "Whis clearly states that Jiren's surpassed the Hakaishins in episode 109." But...

Episode 110 states:...Image

PERHAPS surpassed it. So it was only confirmed that Jiren surpassed Belmond. BTW, it's the same case with the Broly statement concerning Beerus...A statement contrary to fact but made with uncertainty.
It doesn't prove Broly is stronger than Beerus cause it isn't saying such a thing. Just like it never said Jiren surpassed all gods, that is nothing more than a fan delusion.
No, as clearly seen in the manga, the Hakaishins are all similar in power. Belmod straight up said "Toppo is no different from a God of Destruction". It's in the subs. I'm sorry but these are facts.

And you forgot one thing, when Whis said "perhaps", he was referring to a HIGHLY suppressed Jiren. He was using, like, 40% of his power during his first fight with Goku.
40% Jiren >= Gods of Destruction. Pretty impressive, isn't it?
What is impressive is your headcannon. Jiren using 40% of his power? That number wasn't given and even when Whis seen Jiren's full power the narration didn't change for Jiren's strength. He still was only clarified to be stronger only than Belmond, not all the gods. Toppo being no different from a god of destruction does not mean he is equal in power to Beerus or any other god. That is what you are inserting in the story. You state that all the gods are similar in power yet Beerus was the one who out shined them and it was clearly implied that the strongest two is between Beerus and Quitela. I'm sorry you are not going by facts but trying to write your own story for Super.
Yeah, right.
Do you like Beerus? Just asking.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3745
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:57 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Zamasu55 wrote: No, as clearly seen in the manga, the Hakaishins are all similar in power. Belmod straight up said "Toppo is no different from a God of Destruction". It's in the subs. I'm sorry but these are facts.

And you forgot one thing, when Whis said "perhaps", he was referring to a HIGHLY suppressed Jiren. He was using, like, 40% of his power during his first fight with Goku.
40% Jiren >= Gods of Destruction. Pretty impressive, isn't it?
What is impressive is your headcannon. Jiren using 40% of his power? That number wasn't given and even when Whis seen Jiren's full power the narration didn't change for Jiren's strength. He still was only clarified to be stronger only than Belmond, not all the gods. Toppo being no different from a god of destruction does not mean he is equal in power to Beerus or any other god. That is what you are inserting in the story. You state that all the gods are similar in power yet Beerus was the one who out shined them and it was clearly implied that the strongest two is between Beerus and Quitela. I'm sorry you are not going by facts but trying to write your own story for Super.
Yeah, right.
Do you like Beerus? Just asking.
I like most of DB's cast. So I like to pay attention to it's story.

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:17 pm

If Broly really is stronger than Beerus then I'd say he could put up one heck of a fight against Jiren.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

BWri
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1712
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:42 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: It's not just my opinion, we have statements from probably one of the most reliable characters in DB (Whis), indicating that Jiren is at the same level as a GoD (generalizing, considering all GoDs and not putting Beerus on a level above all of them ). And that was before Jiren had a considerable power up, which further reinforces these claims.
Saying Jiren is above GoD level doesn't say much in regards to his level compared to Beerus. The manga gives us a clear indication that there is a world of difference between the strength and skill level of the GoDs. The anime drops hints at this too with the likes of the U9 dieties being absolutely terrified of the likes of base level SSB Goku and Golden Frieza. So even if Jiren is above the GoD level, we still have no clear indication of how he compares to Beerus. I don't think you're accounting for how vast the GoD level is. In the anime Zen Exhibition match the gods refer to Goku's SSB form as in the realm of the Gods (manga Goku states that he can barely keep up with the fight). And this is base level SSB Goku. There's no way THAT SSB Goku was at Beerus' level (manga CSSB gets one-shot by Beerus), which would mean that base Toppo isn't at Beerus' level, but the anime clearly establishes them as GoD level, Toppo especially when he transforms, but Beerus never expresses concern at his strength or mentions that Toppo has come close to or surpassed him. He doesn't even acknowledge Toppo's power now that I think of it, only comments on his Hakai abilities.
Beerus was only trying to use the UI, so he was able to deflect the blows of various GoDs, but none of the GoDs attacked at the same time (basically one attacked, and then the other attacked), and yet Beerus failed to deflect all. He has never faced several GoDs at once, diverting and hitting punches.

That's cherrypicking the art, I'd say. For many panels and two different parts of the fight, they all literally rushed at him and yes, he dodged them expertly because he's better than them in general combat. Speed and dodging ability typically show us a fighter's superiority over another and for a while none of the other GoDs could even touch Beerus. He dodged Belmod and Gin without even looking. Many of the other GoDs were flustered but ol' Beerus was cool as a cucumber for the most part. Keep in mind that everyone is fighting to the death for fear of being erased and he's performing very good against them.

More points for Beerus being over most of the others:
+Overpowers Mosco by breaking out of his grip
+Takes out Champa with ease with no one noticing and uses him as a decoy
+Spooks everyone with his death ball, one he barely charged mind you
+Has no real trouble with all v. 1 until Mosco grabs him from behind out of nowhere
And when he was imprisoned by Belmod, Liquir was the only one who escaped (thereby releasing all other GoDs).
It's a good technique. Not sure if it would've killed Beerus though. Liquir does seem really strong, so does Belmod. I'd say they're some of the top fighters on top of the T.O.P. top.
At the end of the fight, Belmod was not injured and was smiling
Belmod had some good moments in the fight, but nothing as good as Beerus' showing. I'll admit to Belmod being somewhat of a wildcard (predictably so), but him using possum strategies makes me think he's weaker than Beerus and Quitela. Maybe he didn't care to exert himself, who knows, but Beerus' feats are much better regardless.
Vegeta used a kind of Evolved CSSB, and according to Jiren, he was above all he had faced before (even that "CSSB Kaioken" that Goku used in ToP), except for Goku's UI, that is, Vegeta was far above its version that was defeated by Beerus before the ToP. And even so, Jiren when increased his power easily defeated him, so I do not see why this proves anything in the comparison between Beerus and Jiren
That's pretty much my point. Beerus got serious and completely shutdown CSSB Vegeta with a single blow. Said Vegeta was compared directly to CSSB Goku by Whis and said to be even. Said Goku watched the GoD exhibition and could barely keep up with it, leading me to believe that neither were at the level of these GoDs let alone Beerus. Now, both get powerups in the ToP, powerups that allow them to fight with Jiren (who is said to be GoD level), Vegeta less so than Goku. It took Jiren several blows to put down Vegeta temporarily in their first fight, but Beerus only needed one to take him out of the fight. This doesn't prove exactly Beerus is superior but it proves that Jiren needs a lot more feats and statements to prove his superiority to Beerus because the logic and implication would lean to Beerus being stronger with what's displayed in the manga.

So would you say THAT Goku who's in base when he uses UI Omen and gives Jiren a decent fight is comparable to Flawed UI Beerus? Would you even go so far as to say UI Omen Goku is superior to Beerus? Those are the distinctions you'd have to make to say that Jiren is absolutely stronger than Beerus.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

User avatar
Amir
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:17 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Amir » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:25 pm

Miracles wrote:
Amir wrote:
Miracles wrote: Everything you stated is wrong...

https://imgur.com/vidgif/video?url=http ... vrNHKBp098

Whis just confirmed in the TOP that the "rumor" about A motal being stronger than A god is Jiren and Belmond in that very instance. He just matched the Rumor being true about two people after watching Jiren and Belmond. Nothing about god'S in general. You should reread the story my man.
Why do you keep saying that Whis was talking about Belmod? He literally never mentions Belmod. That only happens in the manga. He just says a god, which means any god, not a specific one, he even says Jiren perhaps surpassed the GoD state itself right after that, which further supports the fact he was talking about GoDs in general.

If Jiren perhaps surpassed the state of a GoD in a suppressed state and later became much much stronger, then he is stronger than Beerus, that's no headcanon, It's common sense. The show doesn't have to direcrtly state: "Jiren is stronger than Beerus" for it to be confirmed.

Also lets still say Whis was talking about Belmod . If Belmod is indeed that GoD that beat Beerus in arm wrestling, then they at least have to be very relative and comparable in strength (not headcanon, but rather obvious common sense) going logically and narratively, and Jiren still vastly surpassed that.

All the evidence point toward Jiren. You hace to prove that Beerus is above Jiren, not the other way around.
Whis was being general about the rumor concerning a mortal being stronger than a god the first time he brought it up. THEN in the TOP Whis confirms the "rumor" being true about A god that can not defeat A mortal after seeing Jiren and Belmond. Whis and Beerus never specified WHO beat him in arm wrestling but it was not Belmond. Cause at first Whis didn't even know which god and mortal until the TOP. Whis or Beerus didn't even say it was Belmond in the TOP after finding out he was the god who couldn't defeat the mortal. It's stated in both anime and manga that Belmond is the one who can't defeat Jiren, not all the gods. That is the fans illusion. No one stated Beerus was inferior to anybody not even Broly.

So yes, you are using headcannon when saying Beerus has been surpassed, not the facts.
So yeah I'm not going to argue any further about which god it was that beat Beerus in an arm wrestling because I myself am starting to get confused. All I know is that some god who is weaker than Jiren, beat Beerus in an arm wrestling, that's what Whis said initially. In ep109 he only confirmed that romur was true, nothign else, he never stated Jiren only surpassed Belmod, because that was never stated in the anime. If you say it was, then show a scan.

As for the headcanon part, you literally ignored my arguments about why I thought it wasn't headcanon and instead stated the same thing without backing it up.
Again, if Jiren perhaps surpassed the STATE of a GoD while being suppressed, then he is obviously stronger than them all at full power let alone after breaking his limits, that's common sense.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3745
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:01 pm

Amir wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Amir wrote: Why do you keep saying that Whis was talking about Belmod? He literally never mentions Belmod. That only happens in the manga. He just says a god, which means any god, not a specific one, he even says Jiren perhaps surpassed the GoD state itself right after that, which further supports the fact he was talking about GoDs in general.

If Jiren perhaps surpassed the state of a GoD in a suppressed state and later became much much stronger, then he is stronger than Beerus, that's no headcanon, It's common sense. The show doesn't have to direcrtly state: "Jiren is stronger than Beerus" for it to be confirmed.

Also lets still say Whis was talking about Belmod . If Belmod is indeed that GoD that beat Beerus in arm wrestling, then they at least have to be very relative and comparable in strength (not headcanon, but rather obvious common sense) going logically and narratively, and Jiren still vastly surpassed that.

All the evidence point toward Jiren. You hace to prove that Beerus is above Jiren, not the other way around.
Whis was being general about the rumor concerning a mortal being stronger than a god the first time he brought it up. THEN in the TOP Whis confirms the "rumor" being true about A god that can not defeat A mortal after seeing Jiren and Belmond. Whis and Beerus never specified WHO beat him in arm wrestling but it was not Belmond. Cause at first Whis didn't even know which god and mortal until the TOP. Whis or Beerus didn't even say it was Belmond in the TOP after finding out he was the god who couldn't defeat the mortal. It's stated in both anime and manga that Belmond is the one who can't defeat Jiren, not all the gods. That is the fans illusion. No one stated Beerus was inferior to anybody not even Broly.

So yes, you are using headcannon when saying Beerus has been surpassed, not the facts.
So yeah I'm not going to argue any further about which god it was that beat Beerus in an arm wrestling because I myself am starting to get confused. All I know is that some god who is weaker than Jiren, beat Beerus in an arm wrestling, that's what Whis said initially. In ep109 he only confirmed that romur was true, nothign else, he never stated Jiren only surpassed Belmod, because that was never stated in the anime. If you say it was, then show a scan.

As for the headcanon part, you literally ignored my arguments about why I thought it wasn't headcanon and instead stated the same thing without backing it up.
Again, if Jiren perhaps surpassed the STATE of a GoD while being suppressed, then he is obviously stronger than them all at full power let alone after breaking his limits, that's common sense.
You are still using head cannon to justify your reasoning's. Here's why, you are making an ASSUMPTION about Jiren's full power that the story did NOT make. Do you get it? Even though Jiren broke his limits, did the narrative change on his power? Did Whis or Beerus say "Boy, Jiren is stronger than all gods of destruction now that he broke his limits?" NO. So you are taking it upon yourself, drawing a conclusion that the story never made. Therefore headcannon. I'll show you more examples now...

Here's what you say: "All I know is that some god who is weaker than Jiren, beat Beerus in an arm wrestling, that's what Whis said initially.

You see how you name dropped? You gave specifications when Whis did not. How diid Whis know Jiren was the mortal initially when he didn't even know the universe or god here...?

Image

As for the arm wrestling, Beerus TOO wasn't specific. He didn't shed any names and spoke generally about his whole fighting career in only losing once in arm wrestling here...

Image

So the first time discussion about which mortal was stronger than his/her god and to whom Beerus lost to in arm wrestling was concluded as an unknown UNTIL the TOP here...

Image

Image

Now we see Whis matching the unknown god and mortal rumor to Jiren and Belmond [after commenting on Jiren's power] as being "TRUE."
Notice how Whis only confirmed about there being a mortal stronger than his god as true and he could finally ID that rumor with Jiren and Belmond. Nothing to do with Beerus.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:48 am

Miracles wrote: Now we see Whis matching the unknown god and mortal rumor to Jiren and Belmond [after commenting on Jiren's power] as being "TRUE."
Notice how Whis only confirmed about there being a mortal stronger than his god as true and he could finally ID that rumor with Jiren and Belmond. Nothing to do with Beerus.
Whis actually implied Vermoud is stronger than Beerus but Beerus’ reaction to that remark seems a little suspicious. He is unexpectedly calm and I didn’t notice he wasn’t specific about who beat him in the arm wrestling. It could really be Quitela in the anime version as well. So, either Whis is right or he invented that part to make the U7 team more motivated, which is my bet.

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5901
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:33 pm

Changing the discussion a bit, I want to talk about Gotenks and Good Boo.

Many think that SS Gotenks is stronger than Good Boo but is he really? Look at this from the RoF arc.
Kuririn: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo, and...Huh? Where's Boo?”
Gohan: “You see... Apparently, once he falls asleep, he won't wake up for some time…Even if you shake, hit, or tickle him, nothing works...”
While facing First Form Freeza, Kuririn thinks they will be alright if they have Good Boo by their side but once SS Gotenks appears Bulma tells him right away he's no match for him. No one questions this so it should be taken as truth.

Shouldn't this be proof that Good Boo > First Form Freeza > SS Gotenks?

There's other things like his Daizenshuu bio, Boo and SS2 Vegeta having a much better performance than him against Beerus or Gotenks failing to one shot Aka while SS(2?) Goku did.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:54 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Many think that SS Gotenks is stronger than Good Boo but is he really?
The original story suggests he is actually a joke until he uses SS3, but Super era makes him look weaker even in that form.

User avatar
Desassina
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:04 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:57 am

I don't think that Mr. Boo is Innocent Boo. He must have recovered his strength when splitting from Pure Boo and not the Pure Evil one. The last battle had the two of them fighting as their original selves as mentioned a few times by Goku. They were also closer to each other than Pure Evil Boo and the Innocent one. With that being said, I never imagined SSJ Gotenks to have been stronger than SSJ2 at its peak, and since he jumped straight to the third one, that level of strength was surpassed, but he's stronger than a Super Saiyan. Whatever it is that a Saiyan can do, add the bonus of fusion, and that's Gotenks. Whatever it is that Gohan can do, add the bonus of fusion, and that's Vegetto. Their appearance in chronological order seemed to match. The last battle went back to a level that was closer to Super Saiyan 3. The anime treated that as an evolution, the guides documented it without distinction, and now we're being told that Goku is on par with Gohan Boo. Try not to engage in discussion. Know that you're right. As far as Gotenks is concerned with SSJ, he's below fat Majin Boo even with the original manga, but his full power and/or SSJ2 could have changed it.

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5901
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:10 pm

Desassina wrote:I don't think that Mr. Boo is Innocent Boo. He must have recovered his strength when splitting from Pure Boo and not the Pure Evil one. The last battle had the two of them fighting as their original selves as mentioned a few times by Goku. They were also closer to each other than Pure Evil Boo and the Innocent one. With that being said, I never imagined SSJ Gotenks to have been stronger than SSJ2 at its peak, and since he jumped straight to the third one, that level of strength was surpassed, but he's stronger than a Super Saiyan. Whatever it is that a Saiyan can do, add the bonus of fusion, and that's Gotenks. Whatever it is that Gohan can do, add the bonus of fusion, and that's Vegetto. Their appearance in chronological order seemed to match. The last battle went back to a level that was closer to Super Saiyan 3. The anime treated that as an evolution, the guides documented it without distinction, and now we're being told that Goku is on par with Gohan Boo. Try not to engage in discussion. Know that you're right. As far as Gotenks is concerned with SSJ, he's below fat Majin Boo even with the original manga, but his full power and/or SSJ2 could have changed it.
Mister Boo is definitely not as weak as Innocent Boo. He put up a much better fight than Vegeta against Pure Boo but I don't think he got his full power back until he fought Basil since the Daizenshuu implies Far Boo [Full Power] = Evil Boo and that makes the scaling better in the exhibition marches.

Glad I'm not alone in thinking SS2 Goku/Vegeta > SS Gotenks.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:00 am

ZombieVito wrote:Changing the discussion a bit, I want to talk about Gotenks and Good Boo.

Many think that SS Gotenks is stronger than Good Boo but is he really? Look at this from the RoF arc.
Kuririn: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo, and...Huh? Where's Boo?”
Gohan: “You see... Apparently, once he falls asleep, he won't wake up for some time…Even if you shake, hit, or tickle him, nothing works...”
While facing First Form Freeza, Kuririn thinks they will be alright if they have Good Boo by their side but once SS Gotenks appears Bulma tells him right away he's no match for him. No one questions this so it should be taken as truth.

Shouldn't this be proof that Good Boo > First Form Freeza > SS Gotenks?

There's other things like his Daizenshuu bio, Boo and SS2 Vegeta having a much better performance than him against Beerus or Gotenks failing to one shot Aka while SS(2?) Goku did.
Kururin is more or less just expressing his disappointment that Buu won't be there to hold them off until Goku and Vegeta show up. Obviously, they were screwed until Goku and Vegeta showed up, and Buu would just function to be a sponge/punching bag until Goku/Vegeta show up. And I don't think there's really any implication of a comparison between Gotenks and Buu nor is he really convinced they'd be fine with Buu. He says "I guess" when describing if they'll be alright and he doesn't even really say that they don't have a chance upon realizing Buu was going to be absent.

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5901
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:49 am

PFM18 wrote: Kururin is more or less just expressing his disappointment that Buu won't be there to hold them off until Goku and Vegeta show up. Obviously, they were screwed until Goku and Vegeta showed up, and Buu would just function to be a sponge/punching bag until Goku/Vegeta show up. And I don't think there's really any implication of a comparison between Gotenks and Buu nor is he really convinced they'd be fine with Buu. He says "I guess" when describing if they'll be alright and he doesn't even really say that they don't have a chance upon realizing Buu was going to be absent.
I doubt it he means that.

Boo couldn't do that with Beerus. He got beat pretty quickly in both versions of BoG.

P.S. I was seeing E20 right now and Kuririn actually tells 18 that they will be fine with Boo and Gohan going to fight. No Gotenks mentioned.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:42 am

ZombieVito wrote:
PFM18 wrote: Kururin is more or less just expressing his disappointment that Buu won't be there to hold them off until Goku and Vegeta show up. Obviously, they were screwed until Goku and Vegeta showed up, and Buu would just function to be a sponge/punching bag until Goku/Vegeta show up. And I don't think there's really any implication of a comparison between Gotenks and Buu nor is he really convinced they'd be fine with Buu. He says "I guess" when describing if they'll be alright and he doesn't even really say that they don't have a chance upon realizing Buu was going to be absent.
I doubt it he means that.

Boo couldn't do that with Beerus. He got beat pretty quickly in both versions of BoG.

P.S. I was seeing E20 right now and Kuririn actually tells 18 that they will be fine with Boo and Gohan going to fight. No Gotenks mentioned.
First and foremost he is concerned with Goku and Vegeta getting back. That's the first thing being mentioned, because even at that juncture, that was their only hope, clearly. Especially since IIRC Goku says Freeza is the highest ki he's ever felt. Why would everyone be so terrified and impressed with Freeza's power if he was lesser than Good Buu? That makes no sense. Whether it be Buu or Gotenks, they would just function to hold off Freeza until Goku and Vegeta show up.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:41 am

PFM18 wrote: Why would everyone be so terrified and impressed with Freeza's power if he was lesser than Good Buu?
Because it was seemingly greater than Super Saiyan Gohan. But Kuririn implies it would be alright if Boo was there, so assuming Boo was still stronger than Freeza is a valid take.

User avatar
Zamasu55
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1784
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:12 am

Super Dragon Ball Heroes is still a mess in terms of power levels.

- Two violent boys are attacking everyone on U6 and Hit doesn't try to kill them? And since when does he fight in that bland way?! Yeah, the answer's pretty obvious... this show's cheap as fuck.

- Ssj2 Caulifla seems as strong as Kale, and this is so wrong.

- Why does Vegeta turn Ssj before facing the Tuffles, if Hit, who is Blue tier, got defeated??

Post Reply