Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:12 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: I’m not sure if this is accurate. I should probably watch the movie again. The impression I had is that Piccolo sensed Broly and Freeza and since Piccolo has broader vision (from merging with God) he can see Goku is in trouble.
Yeah, I think I jumped the gun on that.

I watched the Latam dub and I just couldn't find a single instance where Broly was said to get stronger while fighting. The way people were talking about that I thought it was stated multiple times but nada.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:02 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: I’m not sure if this is accurate. I should probably watch the movie again. The impression I had is that Piccolo sensed Broly and Freeza and since Piccolo has broader vision (from merging with God) he can see Goku is in trouble.
Yeah, I think I jumped the gun on that.

I watched the Latam dub and I just couldn't find a single instance where Broly was said to get stronger while fighting. The way people were talking about that I thought it was stated multiple times but nada.
Maybe the Latin Dub messed it up. Vegeta states it in the trailers and the movie he also says it, not sure if anyone else says it though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:51 am

PFM18 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: I’m not sure if this is accurate. I should probably watch the movie again. The impression I had is that Piccolo sensed Broly and Freeza and since Piccolo has broader vision (from merging with God) he can see Goku is in trouble.
Yeah, I think I jumped the gun on that.

I watched the Latam dub and I just couldn't find a single instance where Broly was said to get stronger while fighting. The way people were talking about that I thought it was stated multiple times but nada.
Maybe the Latin Dub messed it up. Vegeta states it in the trailers and the movie he also says it, not sure if anyone else says it though.
Vegeta said Broly learns as he fights, not exactly “gets stronger”.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:52 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: Yeah, I think I jumped the gun on that.

I watched the Latam dub and I just couldn't find a single instance where Broly was said to get stronger while fighting. The way people were talking about that I thought it was stated multiple times but nada.
Maybe the Latin Dub messed it up. Vegeta states it in the trailers and the movie he also says it, not sure if anyone else says it though.
Vegeta said Broly learns as he fights, not exactly “gets stronger”.
I mean, I think that was what was meant by it. That's how Base Broly got his ass kicked by Base Broly, then he catches up and Vegeta goes SSJ and he's getting ass kicked again, and then he forces Vegeta into SSG. That's clearly an indication of his power increasing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:43 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Maybe the Latin Dub messed it up. Vegeta states it in the trailers and the movie he also says it, not sure if anyone else says it though.
Vegeta said Broly learns as he fights, not exactly “gets stronger”.
I mean, I think that was what was meant by it. That's how Base Broly got his ass kicked by Base Broly, then he catches up and Vegeta goes SSJ and he's getting ass kicked again, and then he forces Vegeta into SSG. That's clearly an indication of his power increasing.
I don't know. The way Freeza and Paragus talk, it seems Broly just doesn't know how to fight.

Broly could have just been suppressing himself or something. I find it odd that not one time they say he got stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:47 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Maybe the Latin Dub messed it up. Vegeta states it in the trailers and the movie he also says it, not sure if anyone else says it though.
Vegeta said Broly learns as he fights, not exactly “gets stronger”.
I mean, I think that was what was meant by it. That's how Base Broly got his ass kicked by Base Broly, then he catches up and Vegeta goes SSJ and he's getting ass kicked again, and then he forces Vegeta into SSG. That's clearly an indication of his power increasing.
It’s more along the lines of “he has the strength but is figuring out how to properly use it”.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:07 pm

IMO Base Broly was always above the golden forms of goku and vegeta but he had to learn to use that power, so he didn't get stronger in base persay against vegeta. However once he went into Ikari, from then his power just kept going up and up and then hit a wall,goes ssj and keeps increasing, hits another wall and then goes in fp form and gets trashed from there

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:14 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:IMO Base Broly was always above the golden forms of goku and vegeta but he had to learn to use that power, so he didn't get stronger in base persay against vegeta. However once he went into Ikari, from then his power just kept going up and up and then hit a wall,goes ssj and keeps increasing, hits another wall and then goes in fp form and gets trashed from there
But there's no indication or statement of his power increasing at all, not even while using those forms.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:44 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:IMO Base Broly was always above the golden forms of goku and vegeta but he had to learn to use that power, so he didn't get stronger in base persay against vegeta. However once he went into Ikari, from then his power just kept going up and up and then hit a wall,goes ssj and keeps increasing, hits another wall and then goes in fp form and gets trashed from there
But there's no indication or statement of his power increasing at all, not even while using those forms.

I don't think it was explicitly stated but you could see ssj broly and ssfp broly powering up against gogeta. Ikari Broly went from keeping up with god vegeta and god goku at times had the edge on him to being damn near as strong as blue goku

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:47 am

RecolorSaiyan wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:IMO Base Broly was always above the golden forms of goku and vegeta but he had to learn to use that power, so he didn't get stronger in base persay against vegeta. However once he went into Ikari, from then his power just kept going up and up and then hit a wall,goes ssj and keeps increasing, hits another wall and then goes in fp form and gets trashed from there
But there's no indication or statement of his power increasing at all, not even while using those forms.
I don't think it was explicitly stated but you could see ssj broly and ssfp broly powering up against gogeta. Ikari Broly went from keeping up with god vegeta and god goku at times had the edge on him to being damn near as strong as blue goku
He also clearly powered up before he faced Goku. He even buffed up.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:33 am

Regardless of whether he kept powering up or not, this is how strong he was at the peak of all his forms.

Base > ssj, but <<< SSG
Ikari ~ ssb, but blue had an edge.
Ssj broly >>> 2 ssb, but < ssj gogeta

Lssj broly >>> ssj gogeta, but <<< ssb gogeta.

Honestly speaking, ssb gogeta is extremely hard to scale. He skipped literally 3 ssj forms, straight to blue, his ssj form already being incredibly powerful. I would have made the case that Lssj broly was bottom ssb fusion tier for forcing gogeta into ssb, but he later powered up even more, and gogeta still stomped him and Dodged his beam attacks flawlessly, BEFORE he unleashed his majestic aura to pummel him even more.

There's no way to tell how much power gogeta was using against broly. But his fusion did not go undone even after he fired his massive kamehameha, so there's that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:18 am

Okay, now that I've seen this film, I can talk about it!

Broly goes from inferior to Vegeta to matching him to superseding Super Saiyan in his base form. Maybe as strong as SS2 Goku and Vegeta?

Once he uses his Great Ape power, he's then superior to SSG Vegeta, with his upgraded Ikari base form matching up to SSB Goku. He then turns Super Saiyan, and Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza can barely keep up in their equivalent forms. It's only with Gogeta that he levels the playing field by matching SS Ikari Broly blow-for-blow, before eventually Broly fully combines his Ikari power with SS to make SSFP.

Gogeta Blue just stomps all over Full-Power Broly, even when he continues to power up his Super Saiyan Ikari hybrid. I don't think he ever received a solid hit at all.

I think we should use "equalization" to approach scaling strength. Broly is stronger than SS in base, his initial Ikari state is stronger than SSG, his full Ikari base is equal to SSB/Golden Freeza, SS Ikari Broly and SS Gogeta are equal, and Full-Power Broly is probably stronger than Beerus but ultimately inferior to Gogeta Blue. Maybe his Full-Power state started out as strong as, say, SSG in terms of boost.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:28 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote: He also clearly powered up before he faced Goku. He even buffed up.
I took it as him transforming to his Ikari form in full.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:05 am

I didnt like how base Goku tangled with Broly for as long as he did. He clearly was overwhelmed, but he was literally moments before making ssg Vegeta-sama look like Yamcha. I understand Goku transforming to ssj and then God is more theatrical, but it just doesn't sit well AT ALL. I'll wait for people to defend why Goku wasn't absolutely trashed instantly. For the record, I always want Goku to win, but come on.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:39 am

ssj3kakarot wrote:I didnt like how base Goku tangled with Broly for as long as he did. He clearly was overwhelmed, but he was literally moments before making ssg Vegeta-sama look like Yamcha. I understand Goku transforming to ssj and then God is more theatrical, but it just doesn't sit well AT ALL. I'll wait for people to defend why Goku wasn't absolutely trashed instantly. For the record, I always want Goku to win, but come on.
Well, now that he's seen how Broly fights, he can better counter and react to his fighting style and overall movements. Knowing HOW your opponent fights can be just as if not more important than how strong or fast they fight.

He's pacing himself, trying to hang in while using as little power as possible so that he has enough later on.

We see that, with SSG himself, he's still at a strength disadvantage but uses Broly's movements against him and uses the God Bind to keep him entangled long enough to try and reason with him. It's only when Broly wises up and starts to put on more pressure that he begins thrashing SSG Goku. Even though Vegeta is just as strong as Goku in all the same forms, he's a much more straightforward fighter and less prone to taking advantage of an opponent's particular fighting style and movements.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:30 am

So does this prove that base Goku can fight at god level if he has to? At the very least I think the multipliers must be much less than some people think.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:33 am

dragon boss z wrote:So does this prove that base Goku can fight at god level if he has to? At the very least I think the multipliers must be much less than some people think.
Nah, not "god level". He's just better at fighting people stronger than he is than Vegeta. Though I do agree that it puts the multipliers as smaller than expected, even for my own conservative estimates.

Of course, then you'll have people wondering where exactly to put base Goku and Vegeta, knowing how small these form-boost proportions are, numerically speaking.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:18 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:So does this prove that base Goku can fight at god level if he has to? At the very least I think the multipliers must be much less than some people think.
Nah, not "god level". He's just better at fighting people stronger than he is than Vegeta. Though I do agree that it puts the multipliers as smaller than expected, even for my own conservative estimates.

Of course, then you'll have people wondering where exactly to put base Goku and Vegeta, knowing how small these form-boost proportions are, numerically speaking.
Yeah, I'm not saying that he is saiyan beyond god or anything, just that with his skill he can fight on a low god level.
For example many people were saying U6 arc Frost and Cabba were actually stronger than RoF final form Frieza based off of how Goku and Vegeta went ssj against them and seemed to have a harder time, but I always thought narratively Frieza was supposed to be stronger, which was backed up in the ToP when he was clearly stronger than Frost and base Cabba in his final form. People were also saying Frost and Cabba were BoG SSG level.
I think the new movie backs up that Goku could have used his full skill against Frieza in RoF since it was a serious life or death fight, while in the U6 arc it was more him just having fun.
So basically what I'm saying is U6 Goku and Vegeta where fighting like how Vegeta was fighting against Broly, but in other instances, like how Goku fought RoF Frieza, Hit, Beerus, Jiren, ect.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:16 pm

dragon boss z wrote:So does this prove that base Goku can fight at god level if he has to? At the very least I think the multipliers must be much less than some people think.
Well, not sure how to answer this considering the phrase "god level" is incredibly vague.

The multipliers were clearly shown to be not that large during the ToP, and here they are shown very in-line with that. Goku's first time attaining SSG clearly had a multiplier magnitudes larger than the one he currently uses, clearly. In other words SSG(pre-ritual)>>>>>>SSG(post-ritual) in terms of multipliers.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:33 am

PFM18 wrote: Well, not sure how to answer this considering the phrase "god level" is incredibly vague.
Goku can fight with people who are current SSG tier in base. Even though it doesn't make much sense.

[/quote]
The multipliers were clearly shown to be not that large during the ToP, and here they are shown very in-line with that. Goku's first time attaining SSG clearly had a multiplier magnitudes larger than the one he currently uses, clearly. In other words SSG(pre-ritual)>>>>>>SSG(post-ritual) in terms of multipliers.[/quote]
I agree.

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