Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

Don't think Goku and Jiren are anywhere near Angel level. To believe that would be laughable and jumping the shark by quite a bit.

The way I have it is like this:

Zeno
Grand Priest
Angels
High Level GoD's (Beerus, etc.)
Goku Mastered UI
Jiren
Mid Card GoD's (Belmod, etc.)
Royal Blue Vegeta
Toppo
Low Level GoD's (Sidra, etc.)

Please stop. There’s literally no reason at all to put Beerus above Jiren or MUI Goku. As both characters are confirmed to be above Beerus. Jiren because of statements (Jiren>Belmod>Beerus) and Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku simply because he mastered UI while Beerus hasn’t. Therefore MUI Goku can defeat Beerus by default.

Confirmed?

Wonderful that you are basing your theory on an arm wrestling match.

Thank you for clearing everything up for all of us. I can now stop watching DB Super and any series moving forward as Goku can now only be bested by the Grand Priest and Zeno.

I think you are going to far in conclusions. Just because jiren and goku may be above hakaishin level, doesn’t mean he can only be bested by the angels and zeno. There may be other Gods beyond hakaishin level. Zalama? The divine dragon itself? According to whis, along with the Grand priest, there are 4 others who together make up the 5 strongest beings in db.

[Bullza]

It would be interesting if the other four characters besides the Grand Priest were the top fighter from each of the four universes with the highest mortal rating.

[STH]

Don't think Goku and Jiren are anywhere near Angel level. To believe that would be laughable and jumping the shark by quite a bit.

The way I have it is like this:

Zeno
Grand Priest
Angels
High Level GoD's (Beerus, etc.)
Goku Mastered UI
Jiren
Mid Card GoD's (Belmod, etc.)
Royal Blue Vegeta
Toppo
Low Level GoD's (Sidra, etc.)

I agree with that

[Amir]

There is literally no proof Beerus is above Jiren. Even if Beerus was the strongest GoD and he isn't, it still doesn't make him above Jiren.

[Kenneth La Torre]

There is literally no proof Beerus is above Jiren. Even if Beerus was the strongest GoD and he isn't, it still doesn't make him above Jiren.

True. And with super ending, it would be good for goku to beat someone above hakaishin level in general, which would be jiren.

[Legion]

The only thing we already know about the Angels' strength is that it is above Gods of Destruction's as well. I don't understand what is so baffling about the comparison.

We know that the difference is big and that they can do almost everything with their hax abilities. Even in the manga Vados and Whis one shot Beerus and Champa like nothing.

If you guys believe that Goku and Jiren can do the same, ok.

[Hugo Boss]

The only thing we already know about the Angels' strength is that it is above Gods of Destruction's as well. I don't understand what is so baffling about the comparison.

We know that the difference is big and that they can do almost everything with their hax abilities. Even in the manga Vados and Whis one shot Beerus and Champa like nothing.

If you guys believe that Goku and Jiren can do the same, ok.

I don’t remember to have said Goku and Jiren are at the same level of Whis and Vados. The point is that by surpassing the gods, they are approaching the angels’ level, which is the only one left to reach. Personally, I’m being careful enough to say they might only scratch the surface, which is far from being on the same level.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Well expect there to be statements on jirens part in 129. According to spoilers, during his fight with Ultra Instinct goku, jiren will smile and release his full strength.


Btw I’m not jk about the smile part. Spoilers say goku steals a smile from jiren

[GodVegetto91]

Don't think Goku and Jiren are anywhere near Angel level. To believe that would be laughable and jumping the shark by quite a bit.

The way I have it is like this:

Zeno
Grand Priest
Angels
High Level GoD's (Beerus, etc.)
Goku Mastered UI
Jiren
Mid Card GoD's (Belmod, etc.)
Royal Blue Vegeta
Toppo
Low Level GoD's (Sidra, etc.)

Please stop. There’s literally no reason at all to put Beerus above Jiren or MUI Goku. As both characters are confirmed to be above Beerus. Jiren because of statements (Jiren>Belmod>Beerus) and Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku simply because he mastered UI while Beerus hasn’t. Therefore MUI Goku can defeat Beerus by default.

Confirmed?

Wonderful that you are basing your theory on an arm wrestling match.

Thank you for clearing everything up for all of us. I can now stop watching DB Super and any series moving forward as Goku can now only be bested by the Grand Priest and Zeno.

This has nothing to do with an arm wrestling match. Stop that manga nonsense. Whis said there is a mortal stronger somewhere than it’s God of Destruction, and said God of Destruction is even stronger than Beerus! and we later find out in episode 109 of Super that it’s Jiren. They flat out stated so. Not to mention even the manga itself confirms that Jiren is stronger than Belmod! Universe 4 has long since been erased and brought NOTHING impressive to the table.

I really don’t see how anyone could possibly NOT be convinced by the fact that Jiren is above Beerus.

[MajinVegetaPD]

Please stop. There’s literally no reason at all to put Beerus above Jiren or MUI Goku. As both characters are confirmed to be above Beerus. Jiren because of statements (Jiren>Belmod>Beerus) and Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku simply because he mastered UI while Beerus hasn’t. Therefore MUI Goku can defeat Beerus by default.

Confirmed?

Wonderful that you are basing your theory on an arm wrestling match.

Thank you for clearing everything up for all of us. I can now stop watching DB Super and any series moving forward as Goku can now only be bested by the Grand Priest and Zeno.

This has nothing to do with an arm wrestling match. Stop that manga nonsense. Whis said there is a mortal stronger somewhere than it’s God of Destruction, and said God of Destruction is even stronger than Beerus! and we later find out in episode 109 of Super that it’s Jiren. They flat out stated so. Not to mention even the manga itself confirms that Jiren is stronger than Belmod! Universe 4 has long since been erased and brought NOTHING impressive to the table.

I really don’t see how anyone could possibly NOT be convinced by the fact that Jiren is above Beerus.

You have your sources and info wrong. In the manga, Quitela is the one to have beaten Beerus in an arm wrestling match. In the anime, it was Belmod. When Whis said to the group that it's GoD is stronger than Beerus, Beerus specifically said...."Don't say that, I only lost once in an arm wrestling match." And if you wanna cite the manga which I did NOT, Beerus pretty much tanked every GoD with his UI in the battle royale.

Please get your information right if you want to contribute to a discussion.

Thanks.

[SayianBeyondGod]

I'm not convinced that Jiren surpasses Beerus due to the lack of information. I don't see how an arm wrestle is relevant to being a better fighter not we know the gap of power between Hakiashins. I'm not alone convinced belmod surpasses Beerus alone if we were to go strictly anime, especially when he worries more than Beerus. It's been said that Jiren is in the domain of the God of Destruction in the offical toei site so i doubt he surpasses all of the hakiashins beside belmod and Whis statement is speifically that there's a mortal that surpasses it's own God of destruction but again it's a rumor not meant to be 100% credible. I don't get where the notion that Jiren surpasses Beerus is coming from but I doubt it's from something objective.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Yea... because with the series ending, and goku needing to use a perfected UI (something only angels have perfected), yet jiren isnt going to be above beerus? Its only a matter of time till the statements are made.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Yea... because with the series ending, and goku needing to use a perfected UI (something only angels have perfected), yet jiren isnt going to be above beerus? Its only a matter of time till the statements are made.

We don't know if UI has been perfected by the other hakiashins such as the ones with the highest mortal levels. The only statement is from Beerus and it's been implied that Champa hasn't as well as Sidra considering Roh thinks SSB tiers aren't a easy target from him. The only statement we have that applies to all hakishins is that it's not a technique that can easily be achieved which doesn't confirm that all of them had never perfected it.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Yea... because with the series ending, and goku needing to use a perfected UI (something only angels have perfected), yet jiren isnt going to be above beerus? Its only a matter of time till the statements are made.

We don't know if UI has been perfected by the other hakiashins such as the ones with the highest mortal levels. The only statement is from Beerus and it's been implied that Champa hasn't as well as well as Sidra considering Roh thinks SSB tiers aren't a easy target from him. The only statement we have that applies to all hakishins is that it's not a technique that can easily be achieved which doesn't confirm that all of them had never perfected it.

Yes, none of them have perfected it. And only one has shown it (beerus in the manga). Whis outright stated that beerus is far from mastering it. So there you go.

Anyway. It’s clear as day jiren is > hakaishins. It is gokus last opponent in the series, and statements have been made both in the manga and anime to know for sure.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Yea... because with the series ending, and goku needing to use a perfected UI (something only angels have perfected), yet jiren isnt going to be above beerus? Its only a matter of time till the statements are made.

We don't know if UI has been perfected by the other hakiashins such as the ones with the highest mortal levels. The only statement is from Beerus and it's been implied that Champa hasn't as well as well as Sidra considering Roh thinks SSB tiers aren't a easy target from him. The only statement we have that applies to all hakishins is that it's not a technique that can easily be achieved which doesn't confirm that all of them had never perfected it.

Yes, none of them have perfected it. And only one has shown it (beerus in the manga). Whis outright stated that beerus is far from mastering it. So there you go.

Anyway. It’s clear as day jiren is > hakaishins. It is gokus last opponent in the series, and statements have been made both in the manga and anime to know for sure.

Burden of proof is on you to proof that the rest of the hakiashins have not mastered it but I was referring anime strictly not manga. Even in the manga it's a different story with it's own scaling like 17 being closer SSJ3 level and etc. unless you want to go by composite feats which are going to create contradictions. We have not seen what Jiren is capable of doing in the manga yet. But again I don't see any statements that Jiren surpasses all hakiashins, the toei site literally claims Jiren is in the domain of the hakishins not surpassed all with the other claim being a rumour that Jiren may surpassed Belmod specifically. But I don't see anything objectively clear yet if so then I hope your have some back up evidence.

[Kenneth La Torre]

We don't know if UI has been perfected by the other hakiashins such as the ones with the highest mortal levels. The only statement is from Beerus and it's been implied that Champa hasn't as well as well as Sidra considering Roh thinks SSB tiers aren't a easy target from him. The only statement we have that applies to all hakishins is that it's not a technique that can easily be achieved which doesn't confirm that all of them had never perfected it.

Yes, none of them have perfected it. And only one has shown it (beerus in the manga). Whis outright stated that beerus is far from mastering it. So there you go.

Anyway. It’s clear as day jiren is > hakaishins. It is gokus last opponent in the series, and statements have been made both in the manga and anime to know for sure.

Burden of proof is on you to proof that the rest of the hakiashins have not mastered it but I was referring anime strictly not manga. Even in the manga a different story with it's own scaling like 17 being closer SSJ3 level and etc. unless you want to go by composite feats which are going to create contradictions. We have not seen what Jiren is capable of doing in the manga yet. But again I don't see any statements that Jiren surpasses all hakiashins, the toei site literally claims Jiren is in the domain of the hakishins not surpassed all with the other claim being a rumour that Jiren may surpassed Belmod specifically. But I don't see anything objectively clear yet if so then I hope your have some back up evidence.

Jiren surpassing belmod isn’t a rumor anymore. It was stated by toppo flat out in the manga. The burden of proof is in you buddy. The proof is on the one making the positive claim. I’m rejecting it do to not being stated anywhere and do to beerus being the only one shown to have it, and still far from mastering it.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Yes, none of them have perfected it. And only one has shown it (beerus in the manga). Whis outright stated that beerus is far from mastering it. So there you go.

Anyway. It’s clear as day jiren is > hakaishins. It is gokus last opponent in the series, and statements have been made both in the manga and anime to know for sure.

Burden of proof is on you to proof that the rest of the hakiashins have not mastered it but I was referring anime strictly not manga. Even in the manga a different story with it's own scaling like 17 being closer SSJ3 level and etc. unless you want to go by composite feats which are going to create contradictions. We have not seen what Jiren is capable of doing in the manga yet. But again I don't see any statements that Jiren surpasses all hakiashins, the toei site literally claims Jiren is in the domain of the hakishins not surpassed all with the other claim being a rumour that Jiren may surpassed Belmod specifically. But I don't see anything objectively clear yet if so then I hope your have some back up evidence.

Jiren surpassing belmod isn’t a rumor anymore. It was stated by toppo flat out in the manga. The burden of proof is in you buddy. The proof is on the one making the positive claim. I’m rejecting it do to not being stated anywhere and do to beerus being the only one shown to have it, and still far from mastering it.

Again that's the manga which is it's own scaling and continuity. I'm talking about the anime strictly, you can't apply composite feats here without contradictions. You can't use only manga feats for hakiashins yet use anime feats for Jiren. It's like saying Gohan surpasses 17 because 17 only rivalled SSJ3 Goku in the manga yet Gohan held his own against light speed Dyspo in the anime. That's not how the burden of proof works, you made the original/first claim that not all hakaishin have mastered UI hence the burden is on you to proof it there's no negative claim. You're not the one questioning a prior claim here. There being no evidence that UI isn't mastered by any hakiashin is no reason to make such claim otherwise it's pure speculation. By your logic anyone can make any claim if there's no evidence for or against, so you think it's objective to say Zeno guards are fodder or Belmod is the strongest hakiashin.

[Kenneth La Torre]

So apperantly, jirens full power is strong enought that throwing a punch blows away UI omen goku, according to spoilers.

[brett wheeler]

So apperantly, jirens full power is strong enought that throwing a punch blows away UI omen goku, according to spoilers.

and now a simple question must be asked. How fucking strong is jiren, he seems to still be suppressed when destroying UI omen and probably wont give his all untill up against mastered, so jiren is just ungodly strong without MUI nobody would stand a chance in this against this monster.

[Legion]

So apperantly, jirens full power is strong enought that throwing a punch blows away UI omen goku, according to spoilers.

I read Herms spoilers and this it's not mentioned anywhere.