Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[namekiansaiyan]

If Piccolo is stronger than SS Gohan, I can't even... in ROF, Base Gohan was stronger than him and in the U6 arc, Piccolo made improvements thanks to Gohan, who should have gotten stronger again after having been initially stronger. So for Piccolo to be stronger now, is just a bit odd, even if they do want to unlock his Ultimate form, but of course this is all speculation from the next EP preview so don't take my word for it.

Piccolo has been training the past year and would have been training a lot more than Gohan, Krillin and 17 as he would have been expecting to compete in the tournament.

Piccolo being stronger than Gohan is bo surprise and does not really contradict anything.

[ekrolo2]

Toei, I know consistency murdered your parents in Crime Alley 80 years ago but FFS, if you want to emphasize that Gohan doesn't have Ultimate and is just now getting it, hows about NOT giving him the Ultimate, enclosed eyes feature before he's actually Ultimate?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm fine with the NEP.

We have no context, and even if we were to assume that it was perfectly representative, Piccolo and Gohan have been training together for awhile now since RoF, nearly 2 years if my estimates on the timeline measure up.

It's a bigger jump than before, but the two of them are master and student. Maybe training his old pupil has given Piccolo renewed drive and/or ability to pull his weight and make big enough gains to keep Gohan in tip-top shape.

[TheMikado]

Toei, I know consistency murdered your parents in Crime Alley 80 years ago but FFS, if you want to emphasize that Gohan doesn't have Ultimate and is just now getting it, hows about NOT giving him the Ultimate, enclosed eyes feature before he's actually Ultimate?

That Batman reference though...
Any, I said I was done until the tournament starts and I meant it. This stuff really isn't for me. The stuff I can about isn't the stuff Toei/Toriyama whoever cares about anymore. Oh well.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Toei, I know consistency murdered your parents in Crime Alley 80 years ago but FFS, if you want to emphasize that Gohan doesn't have Ultimate and is just now getting it, hows about NOT giving him the Ultimate, enclosed eyes feature before he's actually Ultimate?

That Batman reference though...
Any, I said I was done until the tournament starts and I meant it. This stuff really isn't for me. The stuff I can about isn't the stuff Toei/Toriyama whoever cares about anymore. Oh well.

That's actually pretty accurate.

Toriyama has been on a streak lately with his new material in terms of subverting the fanbase's expectations and shaking the foundation of what his original work stood on, and Toei has been upping that even more. This contrast is hard for some of the old guard to stomach, especially since it looks like he's doing it on purpose specifically to address recurring trends in the fanbase, such as the importance of power levels, the diminishing of tactics, one-on-one fights, etc.

[ekrolo2]

Toei, I know consistency murdered your parents in Crime Alley 80 years ago but FFS, if you want to emphasize that Gohan doesn't have Ultimate and is just now getting it, hows about NOT giving him the Ultimate, enclosed eyes feature before he's actually Ultimate?

That Batman reference though...
Any, I said I was done until the tournament starts and I meant it. This stuff really isn't for me. The stuff I can about isn't the stuff Toei/Toriyama whoever cares about anymore. Oh well.

That's actually pretty accurate.

Toriyama has been on a streak lately with his new material in terms of subverting the fanbase's expectations and shaking the foundation of what his original work stood on, and Toei has been upping that even more. This contrast is hard for some of the old guard to stomach, especially since it looks like he's doing it on purpose specifically to address recurring trends in the fanbase, such as the importance of power levels, the diminishing of tactics, one-on-one fights, etc.

The only time this felt like a conscious writing intent was with Battle of Gods the movie, none of the other stuff feels like that at all.

[emperior]

Toei, I know consistency murdered your parents in Crime Alley 80 years ago but FFS, if you want to emphasize that Gohan doesn't have Ultimate and is just now getting it, hows about NOT giving him the Ultimate, enclosed eyes feature before he's actually Ultimate?

It would be so much better if they were still using Gohan's RoF design. Imagine seeing him go from the skinny, weak man he had become to the muscular man he is now (and will become even more next weak) through training with Piccolo. It would have been so much more satisfying.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That Batman reference though...
Any, I said I was done until the tournament starts and I meant it. This stuff really isn't for me. The stuff I can about isn't the stuff Toei/Toriyama whoever cares about anymore. Oh well.

That's actually pretty accurate.

Toriyama has been on a streak lately with his new material in terms of subverting the fanbase's expectations and shaking the foundation of what his original work stood on, and Toei has been upping that even more. This contrast is hard for some of the old guard to stomach, especially since it looks like he's doing it on purpose specifically to address recurring trends in the fanbase, such as the importance of power levels, the diminishing of tactics, one-on-one fights, etc.

The only time this felt like a conscious writing intent was with Battle of Gods the movie, none of the other stuff feels like that at all.

The current Tournament of Power is looking to intentionally address some of the age-old problems that plagued the franchise of old, mainly that power levels grew too important, and tactics were soon abandoned for mindless slug/Ki-fests.

The return of Freeza was the first time we've seen such a massive jump from a villain that was easily surpassed ages ago, as well as establishing that our heroes do indeed have fatal flaws that can cost them despite all their power.

As well, the Universe 6/6 Tournament was the first time that there were never any true villains/antagonists that our heroes had to overcome. It was simply a pissing match between two godly brothers, and it played up more of the tactics that were lost to us later in the original material.

Come the newer stuff with Future Trunks, and we see a new take on the simple "evil guy" template of villains by introducing the bad guy as a god that fell from grace in pursuit of a perverted sense of justice, as well as building up a theme of loss, hope, and determination.

===

Back to powerscaling since this is the thread for it, it's hard to know where to place Piccolo. He's clearly been getting stronger alongside Gohan, but by how much is unknown. Has he surpassed Buu, possibly even the Saiyans? Is he equal to 17 as he was before, or are we being misled?

[TheMikado]

That Batman reference though...
Any, I said I was done until the tournament starts and I meant it. This stuff really isn't for me. The stuff I can about isn't the stuff Toei/Toriyama whoever cares about anymore. Oh well.

That's actually pretty accurate.

Toriyama has been on a streak lately with his new material in terms of subverting the fanbase's expectations and shaking the foundation of what his original work stood on, and Toei has been upping that even more. This contrast is hard for some of the old guard to stomach, especially since it looks like he's doing it on purpose specifically to address recurring trends in the fanbase, such as the importance of power levels, the diminishing of tactics, one-on-one fights, etc.

The only time this felt like a conscious writing intent was with Battle of Gods the movie, none of the other stuff feels like that at all.

Yeah this is more akin to throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. The latest interview with the producer even described Toriyamas outline as barebones. Like not even sugarcoated and they had to flesh it out. I'm not sure interested in (sorry to say) "half-assed" Toriyama production. I really feel like you either need to be in or out and the franchise can continue without him. Depending on this latest arc goes in and especially how much attention to detail is taken this is the make or break for me in Super. Relative power levels are indicstor of attention to detail and for me, attention to detail is part of a works overall quality.

[ekrolo2]

The current Tournament of Power is looking to intentionally address some of the age-old problems that plagued the franchise of old, mainly that power levels grew too important, and tactics were soon abandoned for mindless slug/Ki-fests.

The return of Freeza was the first time we've seen such a massive jump from a villain that was easily surpassed ages ago, as well as establishing that our heroes do indeed have fatal flaws that can cost them despite all their power.

As well, the Universe 6/6 Tournament was the first time that there were never any true villains/antagonists that our heroes had to overcome. It was simply a pissing match between two godly brothers, and it played up more of the tactics that were lost to us later in the original material.

Come the newer stuff with Future Trunks, and we see a new take on the simple "evil guy" template of villains by introducing the bad guy as a god that fell from grace in pursuit of a perverted sense of justice, as well as building up a theme of loss, hope, and determination.

===

Back to powerscaling since this is the thread for it, it's hard to know where to place Piccolo. He's clearly been getting stronger alongside Gohan, but by how much is unknown. Has he surpassed Buu, possibly even the Saiyans? Is he equal to 17 as he was before, or are we being misled?

The problem is that none of this really means anything or is executed well. In Battle of Gods the movie, the standard movie format of the DB flicks is constantly tossed on its head. Goku is treated as becoming overly prideful and selfish and he forfeits the fight instead of being the hope of the universe, Vegeta, the guy who's always the cool guy next to Piccolo spends almost his entire screen time acting like an idiot, tossing his pride away to save the world through non-combat. Beerus isn't a malicious figure who wants to destroy the Earth, it's the good guys who antagonize him and put themselves in his cross-hairs and live on only thanks to his mercy. The mandatory power up from everyone that usually gives Goku the means to win (SSGod) is also nothing but a way for him to delay the inevitable, another standard movie trope of DB that gets subverted.

Freeza coming back means nothing because it ignores Goku's arc for BoG so it can just repeat it again (in a considerably shittier way that means nothing later on), Vegeta's development is gone just so they can learn a lesson they already learned when they teamed up to fight Boo only to LITERALLY laugh off character development and gain nothing from the experience. If Freeza actually won and destroyed the Earth & Namekian Dragon Balls, the heroes failing and needing to be more pragmatic would mean something but that movie has no balls to go this far. It also would've made the U6 arc matter beyond a capacity of "lets just fuck around for a dozen or so episodes!".

Zamasu also isn't the first villain who isn't just a totally evil scumbag, Baby already did that. The feeling of loss means very little when Trunks & Mai barely react to it in the episode it happens in, determination is severely lessened when Trunks keeps getting abilities from out of nowhere without actually earning them.

[Lord Beerus]

That's actually pretty accurate.

Toriyama has been on a streak lately with his new material in terms of subverting the fanbase's expectations and shaking the foundation of what his original work stood on, and Toei has been upping that even more. This contrast is hard for some of the old guard to stomach, especially since it looks like he's doing it on purpose specifically to address recurring trends in the fanbase, such as the importance of power levels, the diminishing of tactics, one-on-one fights, etc.

The only time this felt like a conscious writing intent was with Battle of Gods the movie, none of the other stuff feels like that at all.

Yeah this is more akin to throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. The latest interview with the producer even described Toriyamas outline as barebones. Like not even sugarcoated and they had to flesh it out. I'm not sure interested in (sorry to say) "half-assed" Toriyama production. I really feel like you either need to be in or out and the franchise can continue without him. Depending on this latest arc goes in and especially how much attention to detail is taken this is the make or break for me in Super. Relative power levels are indicstor of attention to detail and for me, attention to detail is part of a works overall quality.

Was Toriyama's plot outline really described as "barebone" in an interview with a producer of the show? Because that would really explain a lot. Plus, do you have a link to the interview?

[TheMikado]

The only time this felt like a conscious writing intent was with Battle of Gods the movie, none of the other stuff feels like that at all.

Yeah this is more akin to throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. The latest interview with the producer even described Toriyamas outline as barebones. Like not even sugarcoated and they had to flesh it out. I'm not sure interested in (sorry to say) "half-assed" Toriyama production. I really feel like you either need to be in or out and the franchise can continue without him. Depending on this latest arc goes in and especially how much attention to detail is taken this is the make or break for me in Super. Relative power levels are indicstor of attention to detail and for me, attention to detail is part of a works overall quality.

Was Toriyama's plot outline really described as "barebone" in an interview with a producer of the show? Because that would really explain a lot. Plus, do you have a link to the interview?

Yes,
I don't have the original link but it's on this page in the official announcement thread

viewtopic.php?p=1297548#p1297548

Sakurada tells us that, “Regarding the new grand developments of this upcoming arc, when I asked Mr Toriyama how the series will progress, Toriyama himself proposed this new story. Receiving the bare bones of the story from Toriyama, I fleshed out the story and created what you will be seeing on your screens soon.”

This combined the rest of the interview made me think I'm really not liking the trajectory. I already wasn't sold on it currently and sounds like they are promising more of what I don't like. The "Isn't Roshi really strong?" Comment was way too much for me and seems like it was said by someone who doesn't actually like or follow Dragonball. I don't know enough about this guy but if he's in charge of the series idk how I feel about that what comes next.

[Lord Beerus]

Yeah this is more akin to throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. The latest interview with the producer even described Toriyamas outline as barebones. Like not even sugarcoated and they had to flesh it out. I'm not sure interested in (sorry to say) "half-assed" Toriyama production. I really feel like you either need to be in or out and the franchise can continue without him. Depending on this latest arc goes in and especially how much attention to detail is taken this is the make or break for me in Super. Relative power levels are indicstor of attention to detail and for me, attention to detail is part of a works overall quality.

Was Toriyama's plot outline really described as "barebone" in an interview with a producer of the show? Because that would really explain a lot. Plus, do you have a link to the interview?

Yes,
I don't have the original link but it's on this page in the official announcement thread

viewtopic.php?p=1297548#p1297548

Sakurada tells us that, “Regarding the new grand developments of this upcoming arc, when I asked Mr Toriyama how the series will progress, Toriyama himself proposed this new story. Receiving the bare bones of the story from Toriyama, I fleshed out the story and created what you will be seeing on your screens soon.”

This combined the rest of the interview made me think I'm really not liking the trajectory. I already wasn't sold on it currently and sounds like they are promising more of what I don't like. The "Isn't Roshi really strong?" Comment was way too much for me and seems like it was said by someone who doesn't actually like or follow Dragonball. I don't know enough about this guy but if he's in charge of the series idk how I feel about that what comes next.

Damn. Say what you will about Toei and Toyotaro's execution of the story, and I really hate to say this, but they are putting far more effort into the story than Toriyama is. Makes you wonder how much Toei and Toyotaro have to really work with to make the story interesting.

[TheMikado]

Was Toriyama's plot outline really described as "barebone" in an interview with a producer of the show? Because that would really explain a lot. Plus, do you have a link to the interview?

Yes,
I don't have the original link but it's on this page in the official announcement thread

viewtopic.php?p=1297548#p1297548

Sakurada tells us that, “Regarding the new grand developments of this upcoming arc, when I asked Mr Toriyama how the series will progress, Toriyama himself proposed this new story. Receiving the bare bones of the story from Toriyama, I fleshed out the story and created what you will be seeing on your screens soon.”

This combined the rest of the interview made me think I'm really not liking the trajectory. I already wasn't sold on it currently and sounds like they are promising more of what I don't like. The "Isn't Roshi really strong?" Comment was way too much for me and seems like it was said by someone who doesn't actually like or follow Dragonball. I don't know enough about this guy but if he's in charge of the series idk how I feel about that what comes next.

Damn. Say what you will about Toei and Toyotaro's execution of the story, and I really hate to say this, but they are putting far more effort into the than Toriyama is. Makes you wonder how much Toei and Toyotaro have to really work with to make the story interesting.

The problem is the lack of consistency and detail shows everywhere. From the power scaling, to the characterization, to the lore. The manga and anime interpretations are so different because the outline is probably so open. Toei also confirmed this arc was produced like the previous ones so I wouldn't be surprised is if they were vague and barebones all along. It would explain getting SSG in the Champa arc for the manga and the weird casual loop in the anime. In both cases the natural progression in the outline didn't make a lot of sense so the writers made links where nothing was there. The anime created a reason for Zamasu to actually care about Goku while the manga worked to prevent everyone from inflating to God tier level.

Case in point for me is if Toriyama doesn't seem to care or can't be bothered, why should I?

[Lord Beerus]

Yes,
I don't have the original link but it's on this page in the official announcement thread

viewtopic.php?p=1297548#p1297548



This combined the rest of the interview made me think I'm really not liking the trajectory. I already wasn't sold on it currently and sounds like they are promising more of what I don't like. The "Isn't Roshi really strong?" Comment was way too much for me and seems like it was said by someone who doesn't actually like or follow Dragonball. I don't know enough about this guy but if he's in charge of the series idk how I feel about that what comes next.

Damn. Say what you will about Toei and Toyotaro's execution of the story, and I really hate to say this, but they are putting far more effort into the story than Toriyama is. Makes you wonder how much Toei and Toyotaro have to really work with to make the story interesting.

The problem is the lack of consistency and detail shows everywhere. From the power scaling, to the characterization, to the lore. The manga and anime interpretations are so different because the outline is probably so open. Toei also confirmed this arc was produced like the previous ones so I wouldn't be surprised is if they were vague and barebones all along. It would explain getting SSG in the Champa arc for the manga and the weird casual loop in the anime. In both cases the natural progression in the outline didn't make a lot of sense so the writers made links where nothing was there. The anime created a reason for Zamasu to actually care about Goku while the manga worked to prevent everyone from inflating to God tier level.

Case in point for me is if Toriyama doesn't seem to care or can't be bothered, why should I?

Toriyama still has the capacity to provide great ideas, he just need to provide more detail for the Toei anime and Toyotaro to work with. It's so ironic that people were desperate for Toriyama to return to the series and yet he's arguably the main reason for the questionable narrative choices that the anime and manga have taken.

[TheMikado]

^ I wasn't one of those people. I appreciate a good narrative regardless of the writer. GT wasn't perfect but it seems the writers, animators, designer all at least tried to put a decent effort in the spirit of the Dragonball franchise. Even the designer of SSJ4 says he labored over what to do about making that form for months. He wanted to do something that did right by the series. What we have is the equivalent of low quality "brand name" clothing where the vast majority of it weight is having the name of a designer attached to the t-shirt.

To tie it back to the thread, the power levels were always a symptom of what I perceived to be wrong with Super rather than the actual problem itself.

[HybridSaiyan]

How can Piccolo help Gohan reach his potential If Gohan is already stronger than Piccolo?

[namekiansaiyan]

How can Piccolo help Gohan reach his potential If Gohan is already stronger than Piccolo?

The preview looks like the opposite of what you just said.

[HybridSaiyan]

How can Piccolo help Gohan reach his potential If Gohan is already stronger than Piccolo?

The preview looks like the opposite of what you just said.

Yeah, It makes no sense lmao unless Gohan has dropped in strength so much since the Buu saga. Maybe..Gohan has around the same strength in the preview around the time he was sparring with Goten for the tournament.

[emperior]

Damn. Say what you will about Toei and Toyotaro's execution of the story, and I really hate to say this, but they are putting far more effort into the story than Toriyama is. Makes you wonder how much Toei and Toyotaro have to really work with to make the story interesting.

The problem is the lack of consistency and detail shows everywhere. From the power scaling, to the characterization, to the lore. The manga and anime interpretations are so different because the outline is probably so open. Toei also confirmed this arc was produced like the previous ones so I wouldn't be surprised is if they were vague and barebones all along. It would explain getting SSG in the Champa arc for the manga and the weird casual loop in the anime. In both cases the natural progression in the outline didn't make a lot of sense so the writers made links where nothing was there. The anime created a reason for Zamasu to actually care about Goku while the manga worked to prevent everyone from inflating to God tier level.

Case in point for me is if Toriyama doesn't seem to care or can't be bothered, why should I?

Toriyama still has the capacity to provide great ideas, he just need to provide more detail for the Toei anime and Toyotaro to work with. It's so ironic that people were desperate for Toriyama to return to the series and yet he's arguably the main reason for the questionable narrative choices that the anime and manga have taken.

It's really unfortunate Toriyama doesn't seem to care enough about Dragon Ball to provide many designs and to actually write a story filled with details. I still believe in Toriyama and I wouldn't want him to step down and completely leave Dragon Ball Super in Toei's/Toyotaro's/DB Room's hands. I think that even when Toriyama doesn't put effort he's still above anyone else when it comes to continuing his story.
Sure if they come up with a new serie that doesn't continue Goku's story I would be completely fine with other people handling it.

Maybe we should open a new thread to discuss Toriyama's involvement with the serie and our opinion about it? It's quite off-topic to talk about it on the power levels thread.