Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

So are we supposed to believe Gohan or Piccolo made any meaningful gains in strength during their training prior to the U6 Tournament?

It wasn't even a thing in the manga and they never made a note of either of the two getting stronger or anything. Gohan is still supposed to be rusty, wouldn't surprise me if he was even weaker than in the Resurrection F saga.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So are we supposed to believe Gohan or Piccolo made any meaningful gains in strength during their training prior to the U6 Tournament?

It wasn't even a thing in the manga and they never made a note of either of the two getting stronger or anything. Gohan is still supposed to be rusty, wouldn't surprise me if he was even weaker than in the Resurrection F saga.

Honestly, the intent seems to be that despite all his training and progress made after the events of Freeza's return, he still doesn't believe he's strong enough. He definitely hasn't been slacking again, as we see at the end of the Future Trunks Arc and his fights with Watagash-Barry, Goku, and Lavender, and the fact that he's eager to showcase his power to his father.

I'm curious to know how Piccolo measures up to Gohan himself. I could definitely see him being equal to his base form, but Super Saiyan is hard to say.

[ZombieVito]

So are we supposed to believe Gohan or Piccolo made any meaningful gains in strength during their training prior to the U6 Tournament?

It wasn't even a thing in the manga and they never made a note of either of the two getting stronger or anything. Gohan is still supposed to be rusty, wouldn't surprise me if he was even weaker than in the Resurrection F saga.

Honestly, the intent seems to be that despite all his training and progress made after the events of Freeza's return, he still doesn't believe he's strong enough. He definitely hasn't been slacking again, as we see at the end of the Future Trunks Arc and his fights with Watagash-Barry, Goku, and Lavender, and the fact that he's eager to showcase his power to his father.

I'm curious to know how Piccolo measures up to Gohan himself. I could definitely see him being equal to his base form, but Super Saiyan is hard to say.

Piccolo is stronger than SSJ Gohan now.

[namekiansaiyan]

So are we supposed to believe Gohan or Piccolo made any meaningful gains in strength during their training prior to the U6 Tournament?

It wasn't even a thing in the manga and they never made a note of either of the two getting stronger or anything. Gohan is still supposed to be rusty, wouldn't surprise me if he was even weaker than in the Resurrection F saga.

Honestly, the intent seems to be that despite all his training and progress made after the events of Freeza's return, he still doesn't believe he's strong enough. He definitely hasn't been slacking again, as we see at the end of the Future Trunks Arc and his fights with Watagash-Barry, Goku, and Lavender, and the fact that he's eager to showcase his power to his father.

I'm curious to know how Piccolo measures up to Gohan himself. I could definitely see him being equal to his base form, but Super Saiyan is hard to say.

Piccolo is stronger than SSJ Gohan now.

The preview seems to indicate:

Base Gohan vs Piccolo = Piccolo easy win
Super Saiyan Gohan vs Piccolo = Piccolo win again
Powered Up Gohan vs Powered Up Piccolo = ?

[pacz360]

So are we supposed to believe Gohan or Piccolo made any meaningful gains in strength during their training prior to the U6 Tournament?

It wasn't even a thing in the manga and they never made a note of either of the two getting stronger or anything. Gohan is still supposed to be rusty, wouldn't surprise me if he was even weaker than in the Resurrection F saga.

Honestly, the intent seems to be that despite all his training and progress made after the events of Freeza's return, he still doesn't believe he's strong enough. He definitely hasn't been slacking again, as we see at the end of the Future Trunks Arc and his fights with Watagash-Barry, Goku, and Lavender, and the fact that he's eager to showcase his power to his father.

I'm curious to know how Piccolo measures up to Gohan himself. I could definitely see him being equal to his base form, but Super Saiyan is hard to say.

I fell the same too.
Gohan was able to make at least tagoma budge and even defeated him in two shots as a ssj while piccolo couldn't do anything to him.
Base gohan and piccolo trained for 8 months and we saw them fight to a stalemate then we see gohan trained again in the future trunks saga.
Also saw him to be able use ssj without struggle later then he did back in rof.
Piccolo is the one I want to see where he's at in power by the preview seems as if he's superior to base and ssj
And maybe stand up to gohan mystic form which should be stronger than it was in the buu saga.

[precita]

Piccolo is likely going to be powered up out of nowhere. Unless his only role in the tournament is to fail quickly, I can see Piccolo being treated like Future Trunks was in the Zamasu arc, showing he can keep up with characters in God power.

[HeroR]

You are not getting what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that if it's confirmed in the episode that Gohan just can't access any of his Ultimate power then by logic he can't have it on RoF. Making him have the power he had previously before Old Kaioshin's ritual.

The series sees Ultimate as a transformation, so it doesn't really make sense to me that Gohan can tap a little bit of it's power without transforming into it. That was never said in the episode. There's also the fact that Super Saiyan doesn't stack with Ultimate.

So again, let's wait for the episode.

Him not having access to his Ultimate power wouldn't prove that. It only shows that he doesn't have access to his Ultimate power. And his power is far beyond what it was during the Old Kai's ritual since that would make him weaker than true form Freeza during the Namek Saga, something that Piccolo far surpassed. Yet, even when Piccolo was fighting seriously like with Tagoma, he was never called the strongest. Gohan was. It was also never said that Ultimate never stack to Super Saiyan, that is a rule created by the fandom.

So again, there is nothing in Resurrection 'F' that shows Piccolo being stronger than base form Gohan.

It's really unfortunate Toriyama doesn't seem to care enough about Dragon Ball to provide many designs and to actually write a story filled with details. I still believe in Toriyama and I wouldn't want him to step down and completely leave Dragon Ball Super in Toei's/Toyotaro's/DB Room's hands. I think that even when Toriyama doesn't put effort he's still above anyone else when it comes to continuing his story.
Sure if they come up with a new serie that doesn't continue Goku's story I would be completely fine with other people handling it.
Maybe we should open a new thread to discuss Toriyama's involvement with the serie and our opinion about it? It's quite off-topic to talk about it on the power levels thread.

The only real lack of uniformity is that the manga purposely do stuff differently so it wouldn't be just a copy and paste of the manga and since it is monthly stuff like character development and interaction are almost nonexience. Even then, it's the same basic story between both mediums.

People need to stop being so concern about 'what is Toriyama'.

[BWri]

If Piccolo is stronger than SS Gohan, I can't even... in ROF, Base Gohan was stronger than him and in the U6 arc, Piccolo made improvements thanks to Gohan, who should have gotten stronger again after having been initially stronger. So for Piccolo to be stronger now, is just a bit odd, even if they do want to unlock his Ultimate form, but of course this is all speculation from the next EP preview so don't take my word for it.

In the Android Saga, Piccolo was about even with a Super Saiyan according to Krillin just by training with Super Saiyan Goku for three years, who also got stronger. So why wouldn't he be on par with Super Saiyan Gohan if they've been training together and Piccolo keeps it up while Gohan needs to go to work and take care of his family?

Yeah, Piccolo's gains are a lot crazier when he has a training partner other than himself, especially one on his level or greater. Aside from Frieza, Tagoma, and now Android 17 Piccolo has made some of the biggest leaps in power through training in the series. I really believe that all his recent training with Gohan has pushed him to relevant levels. In the manga he has on par with Frost when he pushed himself, but the result of that was that he was eating away at his stamina at a faster rate. That Frost pushed Goku to SSJ, so Piccolo was at least stronger than base form when going all out.

In the Tournament of Power, all 10 members from each time fight at the same time in a battle royal. The universe who has the last remaining fighter, or the most remaining fighters at the end of the time limit, will be the victor. As there is a ban on flying, this battle’s focus will move to a primarily tactical based one. Due to this, there will most likely be a place for Krillin and Master Roshi to shine, even though their power level is lower than Goku’s.

I'm telling you guys, the power scale has been shortened. Now people like Krillin and Roshi will be able to push back characters several tiers higher. That wasn't really a thing in Z when you could be like 20% stronger than someone and tank their attacks.

[Bullza]

Time for a new one of these. Done it a bit differently, as in a less head ache inducing way. I've tried to fit the anime and manga power scales together in one list. It uses the two base theory with the weaker Base being around their Buu saga level.

That's how it seems to be in the manga at least. It's unclear in the anime but for simplicity that's what I've gone with anyway.

God level

Zeno

Angel level

Grand Priest
Vados
Whis

God of Destruction level

Spirit Trunks
SSJB Vegito
Merged Zamasu (Light of Justice)
Beerus
Champa

Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken level

Jiren
SSJB Goku Kaioken x2 = Toppo
Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku/Vegeta = Enraged Super Trunks
Hit (Future Trunks saga)
SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 (Universe 6 saga)

Super Saiyan Blue level

SSJR Black (Scythe)
SSJR Black (Scimitar)
Super Trunks
Enraged SSJB Goku
SSJR Black
SSJB Goku/Vegeta (Universe 6 saga)
Hit (Universe 6 saga)
Golden Frieza
SSJB Goku/Vegeta (Resurrection F saga)

Super Saiyan God level

Saiyan Beyond God Goku (Resurrection F saga)
Final Form Frieza
Saiyan Beyond God Goku (Battle of Gods saga)
SSJ Beyond God Goku
SSJG Goku

Super Saiyan 2/3 level

Giant Bergamo
SSJ Vegito
Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta
Beerus (Under 10%)
SSJ3 Gotenks
Slim Buu
Good Buu
Drugged Basil
Black (in present)
SSJ2 Goku
SSJ2 Future Trunks
Zamasu
Android 17

Super Saiyan level

SSJ Goku/Vegeta
SSJ Gohan
SSJ Cabba
Magetta
SSJ Future Trunks
Final Form Frost
Tagoma
Piccolo (Universe 6 saga)
SSJ Kid Trunks
SSJ Goten
Android 18

Base level

Goku
Gohan
Bergamo
Lavender
Basil
Cabba
Trunks
Third Form Frost
Kid Trunks
Goten
First Form Frost
Botamo
Krillin
Tien

Punk level

Shisami
Gryll
Jaco
Roshi
Monaka

[pacz360]

Time for a new one of these. Done it a bit differently, as in a less head ache inducing way. I've tried to fit the anime and manga power scales together in one list. It uses the two base theory with the weaker Base being around their Buu saga level.

That's how it seems to be in the manga at least. It's unclear in the anime but for simplicity that's what I've gone with anyway.

God level

Zeno

Angel level

Grand Priest
Vados
Whis

God of Destruction level

Spirit Trunks
SSJB Vegito
Merged Zamasu (Light of Justice)
Beerus
Champa

Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken level

Jiren
SSJB Goku Kaioken x2 = Toppo
Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku/Vegeta = Enraged Super Trunks
Hit (Future Trunks saga)
SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 (Universe 6 saga)

Super Saiyan Blue level

SSJR Black (Scythe)
SSJR Black (Scimitar)
Super Trunks
Enraged SSJB Goku
SSJR Black
SSJB Goku/Vegeta (Universe 6 saga)
Hit (Universe 6 saga)
Golden Frieza
SSJB Goku/Vegeta (Resurrection F saga)

Super Saiyan God level

Saiyan Beyond God Goku (Resurrection F saga)
Final Form Frieza
Saiyan Beyond God Goku (Battle of Gods saga)
SSJ Beyond God Goku
SSJG Goku

Super Saiyan 2/3 level

Giant Bergamo
SSJ Vegito
Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta
Beerus (Under 10%)
SSJ3 Gotenks
Slim Buu
Good Buu
Drugged Basil
Black (in present)
SSJ2 Goku
SSJ2 Future Trunks
Zamasu
Android 17

Super Saiyan level

SSJ Goku/Vegeta
SSJ Gohan
SSJ Cabba
Magetta
SSJ Future Trunks
Final Form Frost
Tagoma
Piccolo (Universe 6 saga)
SSJ Kid Trunks
SSJ Goten
Android 18

Base level

Goku
Gohan
Bergamo
Lavender
Basil
Cabba
Trunks
Third Form Frost
Kid Trunks
Goten
First Form Frost
Botamo
Krillin
Tien

Punk level

Shisami
Gryll
Jaco
Roshi
Monaka

Again there's no two base Theory also trying to put anime and manga power levels together doesn't work considering the massive difference between them.

[LowRyder2005]

Again there's no two base Theory also trying to put anime and manga power levels together doesn't work considering the massive difference between them.

Uhm, yeah. I'll be that guy. You must mean that - and according to you - the idea of the shows having two base forms is an impossibility. A "theory" is anything a person may believe in, and the theory of the shows adopting two bases does very much exists. The reality of those two bases existing or not is endlessly (and fruitlessly) debatable, given the present circumstances.

@Bullza: I like the list, on the other hand. More or less, I believe my characters would fall in line in the same fashion if I were to make it.

[pacz360]

Again there's no two base Theory also trying to put anime and manga power levels together doesn't work considering the massive difference between them.

Uhm, yeah. I'll be that guy. You must mean that - and according to you - the idea of the shows having two base forms is an impossibility. A "theory" is anything a person may believe in, and the theory of the shows adopting two bases does very much exists. The reality of those two bases existing or not is endlessly debatable, given the present circumstances.

@Bullza: I like the list, on the other hand. More or less, I think the characters would fall in line more or less in the same way if I were to make it.

Yeah and it doesn't exist in the show other wise it would've been implied in the series yet it hadn't
Base goku going trading blows with base copy vegeta same one stomping ssj3 gotenks
Base goku holding his own against a fired up beerus where before he got two shotted by a suppress one
Base goku trading blows with slim buu who's gotten stronger than in two hours
If the two base Theory exist than goku should've busted out ssj against slim buu yet he didn't.
Base goku trading blows with final form Frieza who in his first form stomped ssj gohan who should be cell saga level and killed piccolo who's around cell jr level in his first form.
Ssj god=ssj in the anime.
Let's be real the only why this Theory exists is because fans don't want to accept new characters being stronger than the ones in z just like in gt.

[Bullza]

Let's be real the only why this Theory exists is because fans don't want to accept new characters being stronger than the ones in z just like in gt.

Everything that you said is something we are all aware of. Him fighting Copy Vegeta, Frieza and Beerus is acknowledged in that theory.

What I just quoted is silly too. Nobody has it in for any of the characters and just plain doesn't want them to be stronger. There are just things that are inconsistent which is why there's the theory.

If Base Goku was constantly at Super Saiyan God level then Super Saiyan Goku would be tens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God going by Zamasu's words. If Android 17 tens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God? More than likely not nor was that the intention.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Let's be real the only why this Theory exists is because fans don't want to accept new characters being stronger than the ones in z just like in gt.

Everything that you said is something we are all aware of. Him fighting Copy Vegeta, Frieza and Beerus is acknowledged in that theory.

What I just quoted is silly too. Nobody has it in for any of the characters and just plain doesn't want them to be stronger. There are just things that are inconsistent which is why there's the theory.

If Base Goku was constantly at Super Saiyan God level then Super Saiyan Goku would be tens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God going by Zamasu's words. If Android 17 tens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God? More than likely not nor was that the intention.

The last part is fine. The intention definitely seems to be that Goku, Vegeta, and characters on their regular non-god form level aren't god level.

What wrinkles people is the idea that they have a second base that's arbitrarily used in specific instances instead of the two of them and their peers just being stronger in general, high Buu Saga levels by most estimates. This also downplays the importance of intent in things such as tactics and whatnot, as it implies that they simply can't work, even though Super's intention as of late has been making it clear that even the most powerful fighters can be susceptible to martial arts skill and rules.

[pacz360]

Let's be real the only why this Theory exists is because fans don't want to accept new characters being stronger than the ones in z just like in gt.

Everything that you said is something we are all aware of. Him fighting Copy Vegeta, Frieza and Beerus is acknowledged in that theory.

What I just quoted is silly too. Nobody has it in for any of the characters and just plain doesn't want them to be stronger. There are just things that are inconsistent which is why there's the theory.

If Base Goku was constantly at Super Saiyan God level then Super Saiyan Goku would be tens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God going by Zamasu's words. If Android 17 tens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God? More than likely not nor was that the intention.

Whether base goku is god tier or not is another question however the fact that those feats happen in the anime shows he far stronger than most buu saga high tiers
Android 17 was hyped up the ass by toei and it was said he train for ten +years him being god tier isn't out of the question especially where he forced goku to use blue where goku didn't even intend to use the form at all and was able to trade blows with him while both were holding back.

[pacz360]

Let's be real the only why this Theory exists is because fans don't want to accept new characters being stronger than the ones in z just like in gt.

Everything that you said is something we are all aware of. Him fighting Copy Vegeta, Frieza and Beerus is acknowledged in that theory.

What I just quoted is silly too. Nobody has it in for any of the characters and just plain doesn't want them to be stronger. There are just things that are inconsistent which is why there's the theory.

If Base Goku was constantly at Super Saiyan God level then Super Saiyan Goku would be tens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God going by Zamasu's words. If Android 17 tens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God? More than likely not nor was that the intention.

The last part is fine. The intention definitely seems to be that Goku, Vegeta, and characters on their regular non-god form level aren't god level.

What wrinkles people is the idea that they have a second base that's arbitrarily used in specific instances instead of the two of them and their peers just being stronger in general, high Buu Saga levels by most estimates. This also downplays the importance of intent in things such as tactics and whatnot, as it implies that they simply can't work, even though Super's intention as of late has been making it clear that even the most powerful fighters can be susceptible to martial arts skill and rules.

This^ whether of not you buy base goku and vegeta being god tier is up to you but the fact that the Feats happen in the anime shows that there base forms are far stronger than they were before.

[LowRyder2005]

@pac360: Again, the theory exists because at least one person advocates for it. Its veracity is obviously opinable. Incidentally, there have been many theories for things which were ultimately not supported by science (or in layman's terms, let's greatly simplify this by saying they were "untrue") in the world.
Your actual stance should be something like "I think that since nobody addressed the existence of two bases in the show, those two bases most likely do not exist". Fine and dandy, but I may suggest you google what a "Devil's Proof" is. If something is not mentioned, it doesn't strictly mean it "does not exist". For the sake of any discussion, I'd go way easy on the gross generalizations, as well.

Trying to approach this from a different angle, the fact that quite a group of fans started to think of the base form(s?) in these terms, to me, goes instead a long way in casting doubts on the writing team's ability when they tried to make the "everyone and some is SS God tier" hierarchy in the anime feel credible. I think one should also bear in the mind that Dragon Ball Super is a team effort unlike any before, and most of the stuff happening in the anime is a byproduct of different writers working on a script for a single episode. Compared to a single man, Toriyama, fleshing out his story (or wanting to merely "adapt" his story to a different medium) this is quite unprecedented.

While using out-of-universe explanations can make some fans like you feel some, say, dissonance, I believe that they still hold quite some water in our case: TOEI has quite a history of doing things erratically and incoherently in the eyes of western fans; and today a good deal of the finished product is their handiwork. Therefore, I doubt it could be argued it's inherently absurd to suggest that the show may have started with one idea in regards to the strength of Goku's base form (drawing from the canon of the two movies), quietly going after something else some x episodes later. Besides, I personally don't think that having "one base" could solve many headscratchers or spare us other contrived explanations to justify this or that thing the two-base theory proposers purposely attempt to "fix", but to each their own.

[Bullza]

Whether base goku is god tier or not is another question however the fact that those feats happen in the anime shows he far stronger than most buu saga high tiers
Android 17 was hyped up the ass by toei and it was said he train for ten +years him being god tier isn't out of the question especially where he forced goku to use blue where goku didn't even intend to use the form at all and was able to trade blows with him while both were holding back.

Base Goku was definitely God Tier originally. I have no doubt about that. Though that too is again a problem because the Kai's didn't say he had power rivalling the Gods when he fought Bergamo in Base or then as a Super Saiyan.

So Super Saiyan Goku was apparently weaker than Base Goku in the Resurrection F saga.

If he can turn into a Super Saiyan in the first place then his Base shouldn't have the power of Super Saiyan God in it or it would always be Blue.

The manga from the start and now seemingly the anime too does not portray any form of Super Saiyan being God level.

Android 17 surpassing a non God level Super Saiyan that's fine, possibly. He certainly didn't get 50+ times as strong as Super Saiyan God though. You can't say he's God level yet in any case.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Whether base goku is god tier or not is another question however the fact that those feats happen in the anime shows he far stronger than most buu saga high tiers
Android 17 was hyped up the ass by toei and it was said he train for ten +years him being god tier isn't out of the question especially where he forced goku to use blue where goku didn't even intend to use the form at all and was able to trade blows with him while both were holding back.

Base Goku was definitely God Tier originally. I have no doubt about that. Though that too is again a problem because the Kai's didn't say he had power rivalling the Gods when he fought Bergamo in Base or then as a Super Saiyan.

So Super Saiyan Goku was apparently weaker than Base Goku in the Resurrection F saga.

If he can turn into a Super Saiyan in the first place then his Base shouldn't have the power of Super Saiyan God in it or it would always be Blue.

The manga from the start and now seemingly the anime too does not portray any form of Super Saiyan being God level.

Android 17 surpassing a non God level Super Saiyan that's fine, possibly. He certainly didn't get 50+ times as strong as Super Saiyan God though. You can't say he's God level yet in any case.

See, that's where everybody is getting it wrong. People ASSUME that Goku's god-level in non-god forms in RoF. However, it's unclear enough that there's wrinkle room for the current interpretation.

Another thing people are getting wrong is assuming that SSB is the result of a base Saiyan with god power going Super Saiyan. That's the wording throwing people off. The series hasn't really portrayed it like that. Instead, it's gone the route of showing SSB as a SS harnessing god power. Basically, if you removed the "who is a Saiyan" part of the description, or didn't emphasize it as much as people tend to do, it's a lot less mental homework to do.

Basically, instead of "A Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of SSG", think more like "A Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of SSG". or "A Super Saiyan with the power of SSG.

[pacz360]

@pac360: Again, the theory exists because at least one person advocates for it. Its veracity is obviously opinable. Incidentally, there have been many theories for things which were ultimately not supported by science (or in layman's terms, let's greatly simplify this by saying they were "untrue") in the world.
Your actual stance should be something like "I think that since nobody addressed the existence of two bases in the show, those two bases most likely do not exist". Fine and dandy, but I may suggest you google what a "Devil's Proof" is. If something is not mentioned, it doesn't strictly mean it "does not exist". For the sake of any discussion, I'd go way easy on the gross generalizations, as well.

Trying to approach this from a different angle, the fact that quite a group of fans started to think of the base form(s?) in these terms, to me, goes instead a long way in casting doubts on the writing team's ability when they tried to make the "everyone and some is SS God tier" hierarchy in the anime feel credible. I think one should also bear in the mind that Dragon Ball Super is a team effort unlike any before, and most of the stuff happening in the anime is a byproduct of different writers working on a script for a single episode. Compared to a single man, Toriyama, fleshing out his story (or wanting to merely "adapt" his story to a different medium) this is quite unprecedented.

While using out-of-universe explanations can make some fans like you feel some, say, dissonance, I believe that they still hold quite some water in our case: TOEI has quite a history of doing things erratically and incoherently in the eyes of western fans; and today a good deal of the finished product is their handiwork. Therefore, I doubt it could be argued it's inherently absurd to suggest that the show may have started with one idea in regards to the strength of Goku's base form (drawing from the canon of the two movies), quietly going after something else some x episodes later. Besides, I personally don't think that having "one base" could solve many headscratchers or spare us other contrived explanations to justify this or that thing the two-base theory proposers purposely attempt to "fix", but to each their own.

I can understand your points and perspectives why Yo see it that way and I don't blame you due to supers power scaling and may apologie for my attitude.
I don't buy the two base Theory because among other things it never been implied in the show at all if it were it would've been implied at some point and I doubt something like ever came in the guys at toei
Plus the comment where I said fans don't want to accept etc is due to the fact I've seen fans in this series try to downplay how strong some characters have gotten in super despite the feats saying otherwise.
I can understand what you mean and from how you look at it, but due to the fact that they never addressed it in the series meaning to me it doesn't exist.