Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

I think Krillin being above 50% Namek Freeza sounds about right. Android 18 was caught off-guard by Majora and Shosha, I don't think she really fought too seriously (or too well, either) for the entire episode. Maybe she was worried about Krillin?

[ekrolo2]

She said that she was holding back against the wolf.

Ye and that doesn't make sense if she's stronger then him and can apparently swat him like a fly no problem. Seriously, we've seen strong people smack around weaker one's at full power without killing them, it's not impossible. Second Form Freeza rips Gohan a new asshole and the kid doesn't die there.

DB doesn't make sense many times, the fact is that she was holding back and called him weakling.

I think you mean Super doesn't make any sense ever. Like how the episode before this cited Blue's stamina problems as the reason Goku & Vegeta don't use it and then they use it anyway to overpower weaklings they just beat up with regular SS.

[Shinda Forever]

Ye and that doesn't make sense if she's stronger then him and can apparently swat him like a fly no problem. Seriously, we've seen strong people smack around weaker one's at full power without killing them, it's not impossible. Second Form Freeza rips Gohan a new asshole and the kid doesn't die there.

DB doesn't make sense many times, the fact is that she was holding back and called him weakling.

I think you mean Super doesn't make any sense ever. Like how the episode before this cited Blue's stamina problems as the reason Goku & Vegeta don't use it and then they use it anyway to overpower weaklings they just beat up with regular SS.

Yeah you are right.

[DBZ Macky]

Not to mention that 18 mentions she's much stronger than the Earthlings in the RoF arc, unless Krillin got several times stronger from hitting the gym for a year.

[JulianStyles]

She said that she was holding back against the wolf.

Ye and that doesn't make sense if she's stronger then him and can apparently swat him like a fly no problem. Seriously, we've seen strong people smack around weaker one's at full power without killing them, it's not impossible. Second Form Freeza rips Gohan a new asshole and the kid doesn't die there.

DB doesn't make sense many times, the fact is that she was holding back and called him weakling.

Shosa had an attack that she couldn't get out from. So theres not a huge gap between the wolf and her. And like others have said if youre way stronger than an opponent its not even a contest. On karate chop can render the person unconscious.

[SuperDragoon]

As little sense as it makes current Krillin should be MUCH higher than anyway in the Freeza saga, maybe even the Android saga. The fact that Goku recruited the likes of Tien, Roshi, 18, and Killin before the likes of Goten and Trunks suggests he holds their power higher than the kids. That and both Goku and Gohan thought pre-ToP Krillin was slightly comparable to Basil, who is likely Cell tier.

[JulianStyles]

Not to mention that 18 mentions she's much stronger than the Earthlings in the RoF arc, unless Krillin got several times stronger from hitting the gym for a year.

All characters got a bull crap power boost. We just have to accept it. We have to accept that Roshi at a PL of 139 and did nothing since the 22nd tournament arc. Did not participate in Kami training, didnt go to Namek didnt get king kai training, didnt train for the androids. Didnt do anything in the Buu arc. All we know is that he reads magazines.

Yet hes stronger than Yamcha and Choutzu now? Able to compete with the strongest fighters of other Universes?

[DBZ Macky]

So Krillin's stronger than BoG Saga Base Goku? No thanks. I'd much rather assume that Majora was somewhere between Krillin and 18.

The gap between 18 and Krillin doesn't need to be small. Only the gaps between Krillin and Majora AND Majora and 18 do.

Think of it like this:
Krillin- 75
Majora- 150
Android 18- 300

It's the same gap between Nappa's 4,000 and Goku's 8,000, so it's not like it's too huge either. In both cases, the stronger opponent wasn't trying to kill the other, which resulted in a tough battle.

Vegeta exploded Cui easily with a 1.33x gap when he was going for the kill though.

P.S. Shosa is a scrub.

[Bullza]

With the inclusion of Saiyan-with-the-power-of-Super-Saiyan-God in Goku's statement, it would seem that it was at one time intended to be a thing and Blue was said to be the Super Saiyan form of that

Well I think maybe more than anything that shot from the Resurrection F manga tie in seemed to imply it the most.

It all depends on what might have been changed around. In Battle of Gods he still transformed into a Super Saiyan from a really strong Base form. So could he have still done that in Resurrection F or was that something they changed so he was supposed to be Blue?

Toriyama did an interview after Battle of Gods where he said

"After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more."

So he could still get stronger by turning Super Saiyan (which Super implied too) so it wouldn't seem like his normal state would be as strong as Super Saiyan God.

although if Goku can indeed transform into a Super Saiyan God in the anime, one would then wonder why he hasn't at least shown it off once in the 80+ episodes of Super's duration post-BoG.

Exactly and you'd think they'd jump at the chance. We did see it happen in the Battle of Gods movie though. There was a really strong Base Goku there but he didn't seem as strong as Super Saiyan God. It seems that way with Super most of the time.

Then with Vegeta, why would he have become a Saiyan Beyond God by the time Goku got to the planet? All we ever knew of his training was him changing bed sheets, cutting grass, lifting heavy blocks, he'd never sparred with Whis so where does him becoming a God come into it?

He seemed surprised by the Blue aura from the clash and then he seemed surprised by the pressure of God Ki in Whis' staff so I'd say he didn't become a God until they learned to become Blue at some point in that staff.

[Marlowe89]

Well I think maybe more than anything that shot from the Resurrection F manga tie in seemed to imply it the most.

Dokkan Battle was pretty explicit about it too:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Goku: "...It's no use... So, I really can't keep up just by becoming Super Saiyan God?"
Whis: "That's not it... You've absorbed the power of God and made it your own... If you train in that state and become Super Saiyan, you'll be able to get even stronger."
Goku: "...Aha! I guess you could say I'd become a 'Super Saiyan who's a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God'."
Whis: "That's rather convoluted. How about calling it 'Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan'?"

So it definitely appears that Goku's description for Blue in RoF/Super was intended to be rather clear-cut. Whether the nature of the form changed between the films and Super is anyone's guess, although you'd think they would have changed Goku's line in Episode 24 if that was truly the case.

[LowRyder2005]

The fact that Goku recruited the likes of Tien, Roshi, 18, and Killin before the likes of Goten and Trunks suggests he holds their power higher than the kids. That and both Goku and Gohan thought pre-ToP Krillin was slightly comparable to Basil, who is likely Cell tier.

In the context of the narrative, Goten and Trunks weren't explicitily excluded because they were lacking sheer power. The issue which was brought up by Goku was that they were "unsuited" to the type of competition, but it was stressed the main problem was their naivety proving too useful an exploit for enemies, ensuring early ring outs for the kids.

The most we can infer through the very limited tidbits of exposition in Super about their strength is that at least, at the time of U6 vs. U7, Goten and Trunks alone were below Piccolo, while Gotenks was above him (since we can deduce from Vegeta's words that by fusing they would have secured themselves a place in the team).

Basil should also be comparable to the current base Saiyans. Which would mean he could end as not being necessarily comparable to enemies like Cell - as, at least currently, the exact strength of the base Saiyans is pretty much indeterminable or nothing more than anyone's wild guess.

[TheOne]

As little sense as it makes current Krillin should be MUCH higher than anyway in the Freeza saga, maybe even the Android saga. The fact that Goku recruited the likes of Tien, Roshi, 18, and Killin before the likes of Goten and Trunks suggests he holds their power higher than the kids. That and both Goku and Gohan thought pre-ToP Krillin was slightly comparable to Basil, who is likely Cell tier.

Time out.. You're essentially telling us Krillin, who retired from fighting for seven years, briefly got back into fighting during Buu arc, retired again and started lifting weights after years of inactivity should be as strong as Frieza? The one who was considered the strongest in the universe before Goku came around?


You've got to be kidding me. You must be a recent fan or something, because no reasonable person would think Krillin is strong enough to take on final form Frieza on namek.

Tien has been training his whole life and is older than Goku and STILL can't catch Namek Saga Frieza.

[Bullza]

So it definitely appears that Goku's description for Blue in RoF/Super was intended to be rather clear-cut. Whether the nature of the form changed between the films and Super is anyone's guess, although you'd think they would have changed Goku's line in Episode 24 if that was truly the case.

Yeah there's not much arguing with that example, makes it seem pretty clear. Was that from before Super was made?

They must have changed something around. Maybe after he fought Beerus he had that God power inside him but he didn't know how to use it until he and Vegeta were thrown in the staff and then learned how to become Super Saiyan God by themselves.

There had to be some kind of purpose with that scene and Vegeta pointing out it was full of God Ki. I'd say that was where they learned how to become Super Saiyan Blue or become Super Saiyan God on their own.

[Shinda Forever]

Ye and that doesn't make sense if she's stronger then him and can apparently swat him like a fly no problem. Seriously, we've seen strong people smack around weaker one's at full power without killing them, it's not impossible. Second Form Freeza rips Gohan a new asshole and the kid doesn't die there.

DB doesn't make sense many times, the fact is that she was holding back and called him weakling.

Shosa had an attack that she couldn't get out from. So theres not a huge gap between the wolf and her. And like others have said if youre way stronger than an opponent its not even a contest. On karate chop can render the person unconscious.

You forget he caught her off guard.

[Marlowe89]

There had to be some kind of purpose with that scene and Vegeta pointing out it was full of God Ki. I'd say that was where they learned how to become Super Saiyan Blue or become Super Saiyan God on their own.

Yeah, it's kind of up in the air. I still think the purpose of those scenes was simply them achieving the "Saiyan Beyond God" state on their own; it's not like those exercises automatically triggered Blue, and they were in base when we first saw them discovering their own Godly ki/power, so I'm not sure it would make any sense if they were restricted to converting their energy only while in Super Saiyan.

I suppose the problem with that is as you've brought up previously -- the Earthlings could still sense Goku during his fight against Final Form Frieza, although that could have been an error on Toei's part since nobody really mentions it in the original film. Personally, I find this interpretation (or some other alternative, like Goku only using the SBG state when he manifested that flashing gold aura) much less convoluted and far more preferable to the idea of Blue's definition getting retconned from the movie even though Toei clearly didn't omit that description from Goku's dialogue in Super.

I'm almost hopelessly banking on the next episode providing some clarification, but like you said earlier, the anime has a particularly terrible habit of being overly ambiguous about a ton of things and we could just as easily go back to square-one.

[Bullza]

The newest chapter came out and I don't know if there's anything of interest except for the possibility of this being anything.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Is that just how it looks and it's just Base Goku and Vegeta powering up with the usual white aura?

[Basako]

Are you people discussing about 18? Last chapter is interesting. Her fighting Shosa and then Krilin, she doesn't look much stronger than him.

I'm thinking maybe her strength reduced through the years. If 17's improved for training, why not consider the opposite? This would help making more sense about her fight against Mighty Mask too, at least for me.

But we'll see, we are not done with 18, she is still there.

[DBZ Macky]

Well, 18 actually trained with a competent martial artist instead of ranging some park, so I'd say she should at least be slightly stronger than her Android Saga self.

[Marlowe89]

There's something else I noticed that might be of interest. In the preview for the next episode, Goku says "Kale's really powered up too! What energy! Is that a Saiyan's true form?" which could basically be another callback to Broly's transformation.

I'm wondering if the official name for Kale's form is just going to be 'Legendary Super Saiyan' like it was for Broly. At least it seems like that would be the equivalent for Universe 6.

[DBZ Macky]

There's something else I noticed that might be of interest. In the preview for the next episode, Goku says "Kale's really powered up too! What energy! Is that a Saiyan's true form?" which could basically be another callback to Broly's transformation.

I'm wondering if the official name for Kale's form is just going to be 'Legendary Super Saiyan' like it was for Broly. At least it seems like that would be the equivalent for Universe 6.

Yeah, that seems obvious to me. Though I wonder if she's really going to get the same multiplier (which should probably be less than SS2's) and face Jiren with that kind of puny power. Maybe her power will rise infinitely (but slowly enough to let Jiren overpower her) like fans thought back in the day.