Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

2x certainly is possible and it wouldn't necessarily outright contradict anything, but to say 2x is a lowball is unfounded. First you made it sound like it was somehow a definitive fact that it was at least 2x too, I thought either you knew something I didn't or you're confused but it seems it is the latter. within the context of this series, a 2x boost is an ENORMOUS boost, as in SSJ2 Gohan was a 2x boost and on Namek getting a 10-30% power difference meant domination in your favor. Calling 2x a lowball just causes irrational bloat for no reason.

Never did i imply it was a fact. Also SSB KKx20 Goku getting dominated by Kefla and then being able to keep up with her in UI sign is another point of evidence. 2x is a lowball in the context of the fights and judging how well he did against his opponents in other forms.

Also in the context of transformations 2x is a reasonable lowball again judging by past multipliers SS=50x, SS2=2x, SS3=4x etc. UI sign being a worse multiplier than SS2 or regular Kaioken doesn't make sense

Well obviously the 2nd Omen is stronger than the first but that is irrelevant to what we were discussing so it isn't really more evidence at all. 2x is not a lowball because it implies that is the least that would be required for such an improvement in performance when it is clearly the opposite. A 2x boost means an enormous improvement and Goku could conceivably gain a 1.3-1.5x boost and still perform exponentially better in combat. Either way you cut it, it isn't a lowball.

It doesn't even make sense to describe it as a multiplier because you are using it as a multiplier over SSBKKx20 and even if you were looking at it from the perspective of a multiplier over SSBKKx20, it wouldn't make sense to compare it to the other multipliers because it is all relative.

[CTAkuma]

Well obviously the 2nd Omen is stronger than the first but that is irrelevant to what we were discussing so it isn't really more evidence at all. 2x is not a lowball because it implies that is the least that would be required for such an improvement in performance when it is clearly the opposite. A 2x boost means an enormous improvement and Goku could conceivably gain a 1.3-1.5x boost and still perform exponentially better in combat. Either way you cut it, it isn't a lowball.

It doesn't even make sense to describe it as a multiplier because you are using it as a multiplier over SSBKKx20 and even if you were looking at it from the perspective of a multiplier over SSBKKx20, it wouldn't make sense to compare it to the other multipliers because it is all relative.

Too bad something like 1.1x-1.9x doesn't exist in Dragonball. You don't seem to understand that from a transfomation perspective it doesn't make sense for Omen to be a weaker multiplier than regular KKx2 or SS2, even it being on par with those is quite nonsensical seeing as this is supposed to be the precursor to the "ultimate form" in some ways, so yes 2x is a lowball wether you disagree or not.

[PFM18]

Well obviously the 2nd Omen is stronger than the first but that is irrelevant to what we were discussing so it isn't really more evidence at all. 2x is not a lowball because it implies that is the least that would be required for such an improvement in performance when it is clearly the opposite. A 2x boost means an enormous improvement and Goku could conceivably gain a 1.3-1.5x boost and still perform exponentially better in combat. Either way you cut it, it isn't a lowball.

It doesn't even make sense to describe it as a multiplier because you are using it as a multiplier over SSBKKx20 and even if you were looking at it from the perspective of a multiplier over SSBKKx20, it wouldn't make sense to compare it to the other multipliers because it is all relative.

Too bad something like 1.1x-1.9x doesn't exist in Dragonball. You don't seem to understand that from a transfomation perspective it doesn't make sense for Omen to be a weaker multiplier than regular KKx2 or SS2, even it being on par with those is quite nonsensical seeing as this is supposed to be the precursor to the "ultimate form" in some ways, so yes 2x is a lowball wether you disagree or not.

"2x is a lowball whether you disagree or not"
"I never claimed it was a fact"

....yeah that seems a bit contradictory.

Again, even the premise of thinking of it as a multiplier over a combination of a transformation and a technique like SSB and Kaioken doesn't even make sense in the first place, let alone giving some arbitrary requirement to what this multiplier must be. All that is required is for it to be stronger than what we saw from SSBKKx20. Nothing else. Anything else is pure speculation whether you like it or not. Even if we look at this as though it is even reasonable to look at SSBKK and UI Omen as though it is reasonable for them to have a normal multiplier relationship, it is irrational to assume the multiplier needs to arbitrarily above SSJ2 or something.

Going by this notion that the multiplier has to automatically be higher than the previous multiplier leads to an exponential growth and that entirely defeats the purpose of a multiplier in the first place. Also, by that logic that the multiplier has to be higher than previous transformations, then it wouldn't make sense for SSJ to be 50x and SSJ2 to only be 2x.

[CTAkuma]

"2x is a lowball whether you disagree or not"
"I never claimed it was a fact"
....yeah that seems a bit contradictory.

I never claimed it was confirmed to be a 2x multiplier from Tori's god given rule, but judging from feats and statements 2x is a lowball for Omen. It could be anywhere from 2x-10x for all i know

Again, even the premise of thinking of it as a multiplier over a combination of a transformation and a technique like SSB and Kaioken doesn't even make sense in the first place, let alone giving some arbitrary requirement to what this multiplier must be. All that is required is for it to be stronger than what we saw from SSBKKx20. Nothing else. Anything else is pure speculation whether you like it or not. Even if we look at this as though it is even reasonable to look at SSBKK and UI Omen as though it is reasonable for them to have a normal multiplier relationship, it is irrational to assume the multiplier needs to arbitrarily above SSJ2 or something.

Going by this notion that the multiplier has to automatically be higher than the previous multiplier leads to an exponential growth and that entirely defeats the purpose of a multiplier in the first place. Also, by that logic that the multiplier has to be higher than previous transformations, then it wouldn't make sense for SSJ to be 50x and SSJ2 to only be 2x.

Again Omen the form hyped up to be the almost complete ultimate form only being 2x or even less is nonsensical. Yes it has to be atleast as strong as SS2 multiplication which at this point is a joke

[PFM18]

never claimed it was confirmed to be a 2x multiplier from Tori's god given rule, but judging from feats and statements 2x is a lowball for Omen. It could be anywhere from 2x-10x for all i know

You still asserted that it was true whether I disagree or not, implying that it is an indisputable fact.

Again Omen the form hyped up to be the almost complete ultimate form only being 2x or even less is nonsensical. Yes it has to be atleast as strong as SS2 multiplication which at this point is a joke

Yeah you didn't actually refute anything I said and just repeated yourself so I think I'm done here. Point is, the 1st UI Omen being 30x SSB would contradict nothing and if anything is a reasonable lowball.

[CTAkuma]

never claimed it was confirmed to be a 2x multiplier from Tori's god given rule, but judging from feats and statements 2x is a lowball for Omen. It could be anywhere from 2x-10x for all i know

You still asserted that it was true whether I disagree or not, implying that it is an indisputable fact.

Again Omen the form hyped up to be the almost complete ultimate form only being 2x or even less is nonsensical. Yes it has to be atleast as strong as SS2 multiplication which at this point is a joke

Yeah you didn't actually refute anything I said and just repeated yourself so I think I'm done here. Point is, the 1st UI Omen being 30x SSB would contradict nothing and if anything is a reasonable lowball.

Yes that the lowest possible multiplier would be 2x since that's the lowest official multiplier we got for any other form in the series. 1.5x is too low for a transformation like Omen, i'm sorry but i disagree

[PFM18]

Yes that the lowest possible multiplier would be 2x since that's the lowest official multiplier we got for any other form in the series. 1.5x is too low for a transformation like Omen.

Ok please explain to me why you would even refer to SSBKKx20 and UI Omen as having a multiplier in the first place? SSB used in conjunction with a technique is not a transformation and cannot naturally have a multiplier like the SSJ forms do. It just doesn't make any sense. Each SSJ form is an improvement over the other, but UI is completely unrelated to SSB nor Kaioken. Also, the only requirement that Omen has is that it be the strongest iteration of Goku that we have seen in the tournament up to that point, there isn't some arbitrary requirement that it's "multiplier" must be as high or higher than SSJ2's.

i'm sorry but i disagree

See this is what you should have been saying instead of asserting your opinion as fact.

[CTAkuma]

Ok please explain to me why you would even refer to SSBKKx20 and UI Omen as having a multiplier in the first place? SSB used in conjunction with a technique is not a transformation and cannot naturally have a multiplier like the SSJ forms do. It just doesn't make any sense. Each SSJ form is an improvement over the other, but UI is completely unrelated to SSB nor Kaioken. Also, the only requirement that Omen has is that it be the strongest iteration of Goku that we have seen in the tournament up to that point, there isn't some arbitrary requirement that it's "multiplier" must be as high or higher than SSJ2's.

It's called consistency, forms/multipliers were always shown to be at or above 2x within DBZ to Super. Again Omen is this god like form that not even GoD's could master or achieve, it being 2x or lower is really low.

[PFM18]

Ok please explain to me why you would even refer to SSBKKx20 and UI Omen as having a multiplier in the first place? SSB used in conjunction with a technique is not a transformation and cannot naturally have a multiplier like the SSJ forms do. It just doesn't make any sense. Each SSJ form is an improvement over the other, but UI is completely unrelated to SSB nor Kaioken. Also, the only requirement that Omen has is that it be the strongest iteration of Goku that we have seen in the tournament up to that point, there isn't some arbitrary requirement that it's "multiplier" must be as high or higher than SSJ2's.

It's called consistency, forms/multipliers were always shown to be at or above 2x within DBZ to Super. Again Omen is this god like form that not even GoD's could master or achieve, it being 2x or lower is really low.

But it would be a 30x multiplier over Goku's SSB form.....looking as it as a multiplier over the combination of SSB and Kaioken makes no sense.

[CTAkuma]

Ok please explain to me why you would even refer to SSBKKx20 and UI Omen as having a multiplier in the first place? SSB used in conjunction with a technique is not a transformation and cannot naturally have a multiplier like the SSJ forms do. It just doesn't make any sense. Each SSJ form is an improvement over the other, but UI is completely unrelated to SSB nor Kaioken. Also, the only requirement that Omen has is that it be the strongest iteration of Goku that we have seen in the tournament up to that point, there isn't some arbitrary requirement that it's "multiplier" must be as high or higher than SSJ2's.

It's called consistency, forms/multipliers were always shown to be at or above 2x within DBZ to Super. Again Omen is this god like form that not even GoD's could master or achieve, it being 2x or lower is really low.

But it would be a 30x multiplier over Goku's SSB form.....looking as it as a multiplier over the combination of SSB and Kaioken makes no sense.

Obviously it doesn't scale directly from SSBKKx20 i.e taking its already existing power. I just said that from feats, statements and novelty of the form itself it has to be ATLEAST 2x stronger than his SSBKKx20 form.

[PFM18]

It's called consistency, forms/multipliers were always shown to be at or above 2x within DBZ to Super. Again Omen is this god like form that not even GoD's could master or achieve, it being 2x or lower is really low.

But it would be a 30x multiplier over Goku's SSB form.....looking as it as a multiplier over the combination of SSB and Kaioken makes no sense.

Obviously it doesn't scale directly from SSBKKx20 i.e taking its already existing power. I just said that from feats, statements and novelty of the form itself it has to be ATLEAST 2x stronger than his SSBKKx20 form.

But you're still talking about it in the context of multipliers over other respective forms like SSJ2 and what not. All we even know of the form is that he did better than Jiren and that would only require a small increase in power considering that he can do better than his power would allude to because he doesn't have to think about his movements. 2x is a gigantic increase in power within the context of this series, and asserting that it must be AT LEAST that, just makes no sense.

[CTAkuma]

But it would be a 30x multiplier over Goku's SSB form.....looking as it as a multiplier over the combination of SSB and Kaioken makes no sense.

Obviously it doesn't scale directly from SSBKKx20 i.e taking its already existing power. I just said that from feats, statements and novelty of the form itself it has to be ATLEAST 2x stronger than his SSBKKx20 form.

But you're still talking about it in the context of multipliers over other respective forms like SSJ2 and what not. All we even know of the form is that he did better than Jiren and that would only require a small increase in power considering that he can do better than his power would allude to because he doesn't have to think about his movements. 2x is a gigantic increase in power within the context of this series, and asserting that it must be AT LEAST that, just makes no sense.

Yes it does if you take in the context of the fight and how for example Goku's KKx20 Spirit bomb was glared away by Jiren and Omen able to keep up with him etc.

[PFM18]

Me, I think Kefla in SSJ2 is around Goku SSBKKx10/20 and just that. No need to overestimate her power too much.

How could you possibly come to this conclusion?

Anyone else want to weigh in on the order of:

SSBE Vegeta
2nd UI Omen
SSJ2 Kefla
Hakaishin Toppo

or no?

[ssj3kakarot]

Me, I think Kefla in SSJ2 is around Goku SSBKKx10/20 and just that. No need to overestimate her power too much.

How could you possibly come to this conclusion?

Anyone else want to weigh in on the order of:

SSBE Vegeta
2nd UI Omen
SSJ2 Kefla
Hakaishin Toppo

or no?

Are we referring to battle power, like, if someone had a scouter sorta thing to measure it? Or who would win in a vs?

In a fight: 1v1 full power
2nd UI Omen: easily
SSBE Vegeta
Toppo
SSj2 Kefla

The fact that ssj2 Kefla was as strong as she was is one of the worst things ever, power-wise, in super. If you had a current, ToP SSj2 Vegetto go up against SSB Blue Goku, Goku would 1 shot ssj2 Vegetto. Kefla should have been a joke, period. I know people say Goku was tired. Still poor writing. SSG Goku should have been more than enough to humiliate any non Blue fusion.

[PFM18]

Me, I think Kefla in SSJ2 is around Goku SSBKKx10/20 and just that. No need to overestimate her power too much.

How could you possibly come to this conclusion?

Anyone else want to weigh in on the order of:

SSBE Vegeta
2nd UI Omen
SSJ2 Kefla
Hakaishin Toppo

or no?

Are we referring to battle power, like, if someone had a scouter sorta thing to measure it? Or who would win in a vs?

In a fight: 1v1 full power
2nd UI Omen: easily
SSBE Vegeta
Toppo
SSj2 Kefla

I don't see how you can reasonably have Kefla last in that group and have UI Omen 1st.

The fact that ssj2 Kefla was as strong as she was is one of the worst things ever, power-wise, in super.

No, not really. It made sense. If there's anything to complain about, it is that Caulifla/Kale individually were on par with Goku in their respective forms. Current Goku's Base dwarfs anything from Z including SSJ Vegetto, and Caulifla matched him in equivalent forms and Kale is stronger than her. On top of Caulifla and Kale being extremely strong, potara fusion is conventionally an enormous boost.

ToP SSj2 Vegetto go up against SSB Blue Goku, Goku would 1 shot ssj2 Vegetto.

Uhh no? If anything, the Daizenshuu and the original manga are indication that the potara fusion's Base is stronger than anything the fusees can put out. Base Vegetto>SSJ3 Goku being stated in the Daizenshuu and implied in the manga and all. Or at the very least, this applies with the normal mortal SSJ1-3 transformations. Kale/Caulifla were at a disadvantage were close to SSG Goku, and the base of the fusion should always be significantly stronger than say a SSJ2 or SSJ3 can put out, so naturally Kefla should be as strong or stronger than SSG.

There's quite literally nothing at all whatsoever unreasonable about Kefla being that strong.

[1345521]

Ok please explain to me why you would even refer to SSBKKx20 and UI Omen as having a multiplier in the first place? SSB used in conjunction with a technique is not a transformation and cannot naturally have a multiplier like the SSJ forms do. It just doesn't make any sense. Each SSJ form is an improvement over the other, but UI is completely unrelated to SSB nor Kaioken. Also, the only requirement that Omen has is that it be the strongest iteration of Goku that we have seen in the tournament up to that point, there isn't some arbitrary requirement that it's "multiplier" must be as high or higher than SSJ2's.

It's called consistency, forms/multipliers were always shown to be at or above 2x within DBZ to Super. Again Omen is this god like form that not even GoD's could master or achieve, it being 2x or lower is really low.

But it would be a 30x multiplier over Goku's SSB form.....looking as it as a multiplier over the combination of SSB and Kaioken makes no sense.

Broly is right, you have to look at it from how toei conveyed the product. UI is most likely to be 2x or above, because look at how ssj blue kaioken was portrayed (you wouldn't even know is x20 unless whis said it, it was more underwhelming then even kkx20), it wasn't a big deal and then look at how UI was portrayed. It was portayed much biggerand and a big deal, for modern-toei why would they low-ball UI omen and say it isn't 2x as strong as ssj blue kaioken? It cheapens the product, plus it's icnonsitenst with how they portrayed both forms. Therefore 2x or above is much more likely, plus toei (espcially in super) keeps things simple, why would they go into decimals/fraction mutliplier or a random multipler of "30"? That's just unecessary. Add the pwer scailing of how jiren toasted ssj blue kaioken, but actaully tried against UI omen - it just gives further evidence of how 2x+ ssj blue kaioken is way more likely then "30x", smh.

And before you bring up "qui" or dordoria power scailing and how the differnce btween them was small but produced landslide results, um... fair... but more recent dragon ball rectifies that mistake. For example, ssj3 was also said to be stronger then Buu, but their battle was even. Same with cell and goku. HECK, Freeza and goku had a 4:5 ratio in power (more fruther apart then QUI and dadordia or zarbon examples you are about to give) and their fight was evenly matched.
ssj2 vegeta avd kid buu produced better fights then that one shot.
majin vegeta and fat buu produced more even fights
Heck, ssj2 trunks fought decent against black rose and their power levels are supoosedly far apart (and Jiren was holding back against omen, so don't even use holding back as an excuse)
so yeah, in recent dragon ball: people with even further power level differnces or just the same put up more competive fights then those you are about to use as example (early namek saga).

Again, not saying it's fact since we dont know and it's just guess work. But more evidence proves that it is 2x or higher for UI omen over ssj blue kaioken. 2X being lowball, yes. Because 2x is like the least more reasonable mutlipler.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think something else to note is that the power of Kefla's SS forms seems to work more like Kale's SS and SS2 forms, at least in my own opinion.

[ekrolo2]

Honestly, Kefla's Base strength is far more of an issue than her SS forms. How is she kicking SSG Goku's ass with a power-up only dozens of times stronger than her individual parts? Is it meant to be dozens of times stronger than Kale & Caulifla's already transformed states but if so, why is she in Base form if they were already transformed when merging?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, Kefla's Base strength is far more of an issue than her SS forms. How is she kicking SSG Goku's ass with a power-up only dozens of times stronger than her individual parts? Is it meant to be dozens of times stronger than Kale & Caulifla's already transformed states but if so, why is she in Base form if they were already transformed when merging?

Well, if Kefla's fusion is similarly strong like Vegito, and we assume that the gap between base Goku and SSG isn't as astronomically large as it was before he retained its power and received training from Whis, it makes plenty of sense to me personally; base Vegito right now would have a similar level of power in base form, though his normal SS forms might actually be weaker than Kefla's green-haired versions.

As for the "SS forms to base", it was probably just for ease of animation so that they didn't have to animate her powering down; after all, it's not like Potara fusions can't power down from Super Saiyan forms.

[ekrolo2]

Honestly, Kefla's Base strength is far more of an issue than her SS forms. How is she kicking SSG Goku's ass with a power-up only dozens of times stronger than her individual parts? Is it meant to be dozens of times stronger than Kale & Caulifla's already transformed states but if so, why is she in Base form if they were already transformed when merging?

Well, if Kefla's fusion is similarly strong like Vegito, and we assume that the gap between base Goku and SSG isn't as astronomically large as it was before he retained its power and received training from Whis, it makes plenty of sense to me personally; base Vegito right now would have a similar level of power in base form, though his normal SS forms might actually be weaker than Kefla's green-haired versions.

As for the "SS forms to base", it was probably just for ease of animation so that they didn't have to animate her powering down; after all, it's not like Potara fusions can't power down from Super Saiyan forms.

Which still doesn't work, even if you say God isn't as powerful as it used to be, it should still be FAR stronger than a power increase of dozens of times, a statement which was already used in Super to describe SS2s power increase. We also know Vegetto is way stronger than paltry dozens of times increase in both the manga and especially the anime meaning the only way to make this work is to say Vados is a total moron who has no idea what she's talking about.

I'd sooner categorize Kefla's Base performance as classic Toei wank of fusions over anything sensible, this is the same company that had Base Vegetto who doesn't even try to fight Boohan without transforming in the manga spend episodes on end beating the crap out of him in his regular state.