Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Black Hawk]

Magetta is definitely stronger than Cabba and Frost. Magetta's durability is insane. He took a bunch of hits from SSJ Vegeta and didn't even have any visible dents on his body, so if Vegeta were to fight Magetta outside of a tournament, Vegeta would have to go beyond SSJ if he wanted to defeat Magetta. Heck, Magetta took a Final Flash from SSJ Vegeta and was only momentarily dazed, and in the ToP he blocked a Big Bang from SSJ Vegeta like it was nothing. The only thing that's really holding Magetta back, besides his low mental fortitude, is his speed, but even then he was still capable of parrying some of SSJ Vegeta's punches, so his speed seems to have improved after the U6 arc.

I apologize for the lack of clarity in my previous statement; what I'd meant is that I see no real evidence that Magetter is more powerful than SSJ Cabba and true form Frost with regard to the potential to damage/defeat his opponent. I understand that, with regard to durability, Magetter is indeed about as tough as it gets; SSJ Vegeta couldn't even begin to dent, damage, or lift him. However, Vegeta was able to recover from Magetter's blows quite quickly, to the extent that his attacks don't seem to damage Vegeta any more than Cabba's, which was seemingly none at all. (I'd add Frost but Vegeta never even gave him an opening.)

[SuperDragoon]

How would you guys rank the following in terms of power: Current SSB Goku, Kaioken x2 SSB Goku, Kaioken x20 SSB Goku, Toppo, Hit, True Golden Freeza, SSJ Rose Goku Black, SSB Vegeta, Halo Fused Zamasu.

[Noah]

How would you guys rank the following in terms of power: Current SSB Goku, Kaioken x2 SSB Goku, Kaioken x20 SSB Goku, Toppo, Hit, True Golden Freeza, SSJ Rose Goku Black, SSB Vegeta, Halo Fused Zamasu.

Kaioken x20 SSJB Goku > Merged Zamasu (Halo) > Kaioken SSJB Goku > SSJ Rosé Goku Black > Current SSJB Goku/Vegeta > Hit/Golden Freeza/Toppo

[SupremeKai25]

How would you guys rank the following in terms of power: Current SSB Goku, Kaioken x2 SSB Goku, Kaioken x20 SSB Goku, Toppo, Hit, True Golden Freeza, SSJ Rose Goku Black, SSB Vegeta, Halo Fused Zamasu.

Kaioken x20 SSJB Goku > Merged Zamasu (Halo) > Kaioken SSJB Goku > SSJ Rosé Goku Black > Current SSJB Goku/Vegeta > Hit/Golden Freeza/Toppo

Is Kaioken x20 SSB Goku stronger than Halo Fused Zamasu? Interesting. As for the rest of your list, i agree. SSJ Rosè Black had definitely gained the edge over SSB Goku and Vegeta prior to fusing with Future Zamasu.

[Kenneth La Torre]

How would you guys rank the following in terms of power: Current SSB Goku, Kaioken x2 SSB Goku, Kaioken x20 SSB Goku, Toppo, Hit, True Golden Freeza, SSJ Rose Goku Black, SSB Vegeta, Halo Fused Zamasu.

Kaioken x20 SSJB Goku > Merged Zamasu (Halo) > Kaioken SSJB Goku > SSJ Rosé Goku Black > Current SSJB Goku/Vegeta > Hit/Golden Freeza/Toppo

Is Kaioken x20 SSB Goku stronger than Halo Fused Zamasu? Interesting. As for the rest of your list, i agree. SSJ Rosè Black had definitely gained the edge over SSB Goku and Vegeta prior to fusing with Future Zamasu.

Well, If we take the manga M. Zamasu (which is the same as anime halo zamasu), a Completed SSB was fighting somewhat on par with Merged Zamasu. You can say that CSSB is a counter part of SSB x20 from the anime. But thats a lot of assumptions. I tend to switch M.Zamasu Halo and SSBx20 Goku around since i dont know myself where they stand.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Alright, folks, next episode will be coming out on Crunchyoll in just a few hours. Get your nitpicking goggles and analysis gloves on!

[Kenneth La Torre]

Alright, folks, next episode will be coming out on Crunchyoll in just a few hours. Get your nitpicking goggles and analysis gloves on!

Yep, its about to get nasty in this thread

[SupremeKai25]

Kaioken x20 SSJB Goku > Merged Zamasu (Halo) > Kaioken SSJB Goku > SSJ Rosé Goku Black > Current SSJB Goku/Vegeta > Hit/Golden Freeza/Toppo

Is Kaioken x20 SSB Goku stronger than Halo Fused Zamasu? Interesting. As for the rest of your list, i agree. SSJ Rosè Black had definitely gained the edge over SSB Goku and Vegeta prior to fusing with Future Zamasu.

Well, If we take the manga M. Zamasu (which is the same as anime halo zamasu), a Completed SSB was fighting somewhat on par with Merged Zamasu. You can say that CSSB is a counter part of SSB x20 from the anime. But thats a lot of assumptions. I tend to switch M.Zamasu Halo and SSBx20 Goku around since i dont know myself where they stand.

Yeah. Did Goku go SSB Kaioken x20 to break Fused Zamasu's Halo? If i recall correctly, the only time Goku went SSB Kaioken x20 in the entire series was during the Spirit Bomb struggle with Jiren.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Is Kaioken x20 SSB Goku stronger than Halo Fused Zamasu? Interesting. As for the rest of your list, i agree. SSJ Rosè Black had definitely gained the edge over SSB Goku and Vegeta prior to fusing with Future Zamasu.

Well, If we take the manga M. Zamasu (which is the same as anime halo zamasu), a Completed SSB was fighting somewhat on par with Merged Zamasu. You can say that CSSB is a counter part of SSB x20 from the anime. But thats a lot of assumptions. I tend to switch M.Zamasu Halo and SSBx20 Goku around since i dont know myself where they stand.

Yeah. Did Goku go SSB Kaioken x20 to break Fused Zamasu's Halo? If i recall correctly, the only time Goku went SSB Kaioken x20 in the entire series was during the Spirit Bomb struggle with Jiren.

Indeed. Krillin made a point of stating that Goku should be able to withstand a x20 Kaio-ken now, and the Tournament of Power started many months after the events with Merged Zamasu.

Thus, I'm inclined to believe that Goku back then only used a x2-x10 Kaio-ken against Merged Zamasu's initial state.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Well, If we take the manga M. Zamasu (which is the same as anime halo zamasu), a Completed SSB was fighting somewhat on par with Merged Zamasu. You can say that CSSB is a counter part of SSB x20 from the anime. But thats a lot of assumptions. I tend to switch M.Zamasu Halo and SSBx20 Goku around since i dont know myself where they stand.

Yeah. Did Goku go SSB Kaioken x20 to break Fused Zamasu's Halo? If i recall correctly, the only time Goku went SSB Kaioken x20 in the entire series was during the Spirit Bomb struggle with Jiren.

Indeed. Krillin made a point of stating that Goku should be able to withstand a x20 Kaio-ken now, and the Tournament of Power started many months after the events with Merged Zamasu.

Thus, I'm inclined to believe that Goku back then only used a x2-x10 Kaio-ken against Merged Zamasu's initial state.

Yeah, kaioken x20 is only mentioned in episode 109. The most that Goku could have used is 10x against M.Zamasu, unless a guidebook comes along and states otherwise.

[Bullza]

On a unrelated note before the new episode drops, for the time being I'm going to place Android 17 between Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Super Saiyan Berserk Controlled Kale.

That's subject to change but after the new manga chapter and on top of some things in the anime recently that's where I think he could be.

Whether Gohan is also on that level....we'll see in a few hours.

[Lord Beerus]

Biarra is overwhelmed by joint attacks from #17 and #18
Koitsukai, Borareta and Pancea (individually) give Base Goku, Base Vegeta and Base Gohan a hard time.
Ultimate Gohan arrives on the scene and Koitsukai, Borareta and Pancea (individually) and give Gohan some trouble, but Gohan gets the advantage.
Koitsukai, Borareta and Pancea (fused together) are evenly matched by SSJB Goku and Vegeta in fisticuffs and in a beat struggle.
Koitsukai, Borareta and Pancea (fused together) could withstand a Kamehameha from Ultimate Gohan, until Gohan put a little more "oomph" into it.

NEP shows Aniraza wreaking havok. Oh, and Goku is a SSJG again.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Power levels, how do they work? I dont want to talk to a powerscaler. Those motherf*ckers are lying and getting me pissed...


Get the reference?

This episode...

[Freeza9000]

I guess the recent episode further insinuates that Ultimate Gohan's strength is somewhere comparable to SSJB Goku/Vegeta.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I guess the recent episode further insinuates that Ultimate Gohan's strength is somewhere comparable to SSJB Goku/Vegeta.

It always was, but then again, "goku was holding back duuhhhh" that might happen next episode.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Now that we've seen the remainder of U3 fight in this episode, we can now rank all the universes' fighters since we already know that Aniraza will be the strongest from U3.

Universe 2

1. Giant Ribrianne
2. Jimeze
3. Transformed Zirloin
4. Transformed Rabanra
5. Transformed Zarbuto
6. Ribrianne
7. Kakunsa
8. Rozie
9. Hermila
10. Vikal
11. Prum

Pretty much all of this team is around Base Goku level or lower.

Universe 3

1. Aniraza - should be above SSB level
2. Koicearota - SSB level
3. Maji Kayo- could be anywhere from SSJ level to SSG level.
4. Katopesla- could compete with SSJ Vegeta in his ultimate form
5. Biarra - could spar with 17 and 18 for quite a bit of time
6/7/8. Koitsukai/Panchia/Borareta- All equal to each other. Could give the base Saiyans a lot of trouble
9. Paparoni- Hasn't done much, but he deserves the benefit of the doubt over the last 3.
10. Narirama- at least he's better than the next two. Probably much weaker than the base Saiyans, but his opponent was Hit, so you could argue that he could be base level or maybe SSJ level if you're generous since Hit could fodderize anyone on that level.
11. The Preecho- Did nothing, but at least he made Roshi use that electric technique
12. Nigrisshi- Complete fodder and one of the biggest disappointments in this arc. Got casually one shot by Base Cabba.


Universe 4
1. Monna- Stronger than SSJ Cabba, but the writers are really inconsistent with how the U6 Super Saiyans compare to SSJ Goku and Vegeta, so idk how close she is to SSJ Goku/Vegeta.
2. Damon- Really hard to hit, but he is weaker than SSJ level since his attacks aren't that strong.
3. Nink- Could restrain base Goku
4. Gamisaras- His attacks could hurt 18 and the base Saiyans, but he got jobbed quickly by Piccolo. Probably weaker than the base Saiyans.
5. Majora- Could damage 18 and only lost to Krillin for the sake of a dumb gag.
6. Shosa- His attacks could knock back 18 quite a bit.
7. Ganos- Got overpowered by Roshi's full power Kamehameha, but he was stronger than Roshi and can grow in strength rapidly
8. Darkori- Her illusions seemed dangerous, but she got jobbed quickly by Roshi
9. Caway- 2nd biggest fodder in the ToP. Got her attacks stopped by two of base Roshi's fingers. A complete embarrassment for U4.
10. Shantza- Completely useless on his own as a fighter. His illusions can't actually damage opponents, and he got knocked off by a casual ki blast from Piccolo. Another complete embarrassment for U4.

Universe 6
1. Kefla- As much as I hate to admit it, SSJ2 Kefla is above SSBKKx20 and Hit, despite the fact that SSJ Kefla seemed to be equal to SSB Goku.
2. Hit- SSBKK level (which KK multiplier he's = to is debatable). He demolished Dyspo, who was pushing back SSG/SSB Goku. He also managed to land a clean hit on Jiren which knocked Jiren back by quite a bit, and Jiren had a lot of trouble moving while under Hit's Cage of Time.
3/4. Pirina/Saonel- Were competitive against Ultimate Gohan. Pirina had an even beam clash against Ultimate Gohan, and Saonel was able to survive relatively unharmed inside of that beam clash. They should be ~SSG level when they stabilized.
5. Kale- ~SSJ3 level in her controlled Berserk state since she could survive for a while against SSG Goku
6. Magetta- SSJ2+ level since SSJ Vegeta couldn't put a dent in him, and he blocked a Big Bang from SSJ Vegeta like it was nothing. His attacks can parry SSJ Vegeta's attacks, and the only thing he's lacking is speed.
7. Caulifla- Close to SSJ2 Goku in terms of power.
8. Cabba- Freeza had to go to Golden form to tank SSJ2 Cabba's Galick Gun, and in his base form, he was stated to be equal to base Vegeta.
9. Frost- Stronger than the base Saiyans but much weaker than SSJ Goku/Vegeta in his final form. Not sure how close he is to SSJ Goku/Vegeta when in 100% final form since we never saw anything from him in this state.
10. Botamo- Overconfident in his ability to redirect attacks to another dimension. He always just stands there and lets opponents hit him until they figure out how to beat him, but his other stats seem to be garbage anyways. Base Goku level at best.
11. Dr. Rota- fodder.

Universe 7
1. Goku- obvious
2. Vegeta- called the second fiddle
3. Freeza- seemingly equal to Blue Goku while in his Golden form
4/5. Android 17/Gohan- Neither one has proven to be superior to the other yet. They're somewhere between SSG and SSB level.
6. Piccolo- Could beat SSJ2 Gohan in a fight and got acknowledged by the U6 Namekians
7. Android 18- obviously stronger than the humans
8. Krillin- stated to be the strongest human
9. Tien- had terrible showings, but he should still be stronger than Roshi.
10. Roshi- has good techniques, but wouldn't be useful outside of a tournament since his power level is too low.

Universe 9
1. Bergamo- Equal to base Goku in his base form. His speed in his giant form is trash, but his Wolfgang Penetrator could push back a big Kamehameha from SSBKK Goku and forced Goku to put more power into it.
2. Lavender- His poison made him equal to SSJ Gohan
3. Basil- Give Buu some trouble, but still got defeated handily.
4. Chappil- base Goku couldn't damage him, but Goku was likely suppressed.
5. Hyssop- could block base Vegeta's attack and froze his hand.
6. Hop- gave base Vegeta some trouble
7/8/9/10. Oregano, Comfrey, Sorrel, and Roselle didn't really do anything.

Universe 10
1. Obuni- forced Gohan to use Ultimate
2. Rubalt- damaged Piccolo.
3. Napapa- competitive with Basil.
The rest of the team didn't show us anything and were all trash.

Universe 11
1. Jiren- obvious
2. Toppo- said to be the 2nd strongest
3. Dyspo- could push back SSG/SSB Goku
4. Kunshi- Goku decided to go SSB to charge through his strings, so he must be stronger than base Goku at least.
5. Kahseral- didn't do much, but got more hype than the rest.
The rest of the team is interchangable.

[Lord Beerus]

I guess the recent episode further insinuates that Ultimate Gohan's strength is somewhere comparable to SSJB Goku/Vegeta.

Considering Goku had to go Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken to defeat Ultimate Gohan in their sparring match in Episode 90, I think safe to say that Ultimate Gohan has always been SSJB tier since then. This episode just solidified it more than anything.

Full NEP for next episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OFQJ3Q-o7U

[TheSaiyanGod]

I guess the recent episode further insinuates that Ultimate Gohan's strength is somewhere comparable to SSJB Goku/Vegeta.

Considering Goku had to go Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken to defeat Ultimate Gohan in their sparring match in Episode 90, I think safe to say that Ultimate Gohan has always been SSJB tier since then. This episode just solidified it more than anything.

Full NEP for next episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OFQJ3Q-o7U

Gohan asked Goku to use all his power.

Before that, Goku did not show any intention of using the SSB, in contrast, in SSJ2 he could compete with Ultimate Gohan.

Taking the recruiting fights seriously is bullshit, this was clear in the last few episodes.
Many people thought that Kale was SSB level because of a fight in which Goku was clearly restraining himself. But on EP 114 we saw that she is less than a tired Goku SSG.

This EP has not proven anything. Gohan did not do any damage to the fusion of the robots and the fact that Goku / Vegeta used the Blue does not mean anything (in the next EP Goku is using an inferior form against Aniraza, still stronger than the fusion of the EP 120).

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well, at the very least, Koichiarator is pretty strong, about as strong as Ultimate Gohan when he's using his full power.

I'd say that he should at the very least be considered as approaching Goku and Vegeta's level. He even got respect from Beerus, very open respect at that, for doing so well.

Also, some nice use of skill and tactics on both Universes' parts that doesn't factor in pure power levels.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

I guess the recent episode further insinuates that Ultimate Gohan's strength is somewhere comparable to SSJB Goku/Vegeta.

Considering Goku had to go Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken to defeat Ultimate Gohan in their sparring match in Episode 90, I think safe to say that Ultimate Gohan has always been SSJB tier since then. This episode just solidified it more than anything.

Full NEP for next episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OFQJ3Q-o7U

Gohan asked Goku to use all his power.

Before that, Goku did not show any intention of using the SSB, in contrast, in SSJ2 he could compete with Ultimate Gohan.

Taking the recruiting fights seriously is bullshit, this was clear in the last few episodes.
Many people thought that Kale was SSB level because of a fight in which Goku was clearly restraining himself. But on EP 114 we saw that she is less than a tired Goku SSG.

This EP has not proven anything. Gohan did not do any damage to the fusion of the robots and the fact that Goku / Vegeta used the Blue does not mean anything (in the next EP Goku is using an inferior form against Aniraza, still stronger than the fusion of the EP 120).

Yeah, Gohan asked Goku to go all out. He then proceeded to trade punches with him.

Gohan also absolutely did damage to Koichiarator; his Kamehameha broke the robot's hands! Koichiarator also tied Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta simultaneously in a beam struggle, indicating that it's meant to be stronger than either individually. Goku using God against Aniraza in 121 isn't necessarily evidence of Goku holding back here since Vegeta's using Super Saiyan. Seems like Aniraza beats them up so badly that they don't have the stamina for their higher forms.