Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

I don't know if you paid attention to that scene right, but Goku was in his Base form, so please why would Beerus be afraid of guy overwhelming Goku in that state, something that he can also do with ease?

After Geran's initial power, there's no evidence of Geran powering up before UI Goku besides maybe the Genki-Dama. It's best to say that Geran powered up enough initially to be surpassed SSJBKKx20 tier. This is supported by Geran's initial power up shaking the WoV and not even Goku did that until he achieved UI. It would also make no sense if Geran powers up but closes the gap each time Goku powered up as well.

There's also the fact that Jiren didn't even move until Goku went SSGod and even then he only used his finger, and Noah thinks he's putting out Base Goku level power.

[Noah]

I don't know if you paid attention to the series in general, but the physical effect of powering up has no relation to the actual power output. It's like asking why anyone should be afraid of SSBlue Goku when his power ups have no effect on the environment.

It's not implied at all, U4 was full of jobbers and had no one close to GoD level, Whis said the guy who beat Beerus had a mortal stronger than him in his universe, and that's Jiren.

Before Goku goes to get Frieza Whis clearly states that the GoD who has the mortal stronger than him is also stronger than Beerus.

I think you probably began watching the series this year as no such thing as "the physical effect of powering up has no relation to the actual power output" was ever indicated in this franchise, but the otherwise. Also no characters should be afraid of whatever SSJ Blue power effects on the environment if they are above that level, period.

Please, saying things like "Quitela is weak because the warriors he brought to the tournament were weaklings" is just a silly assumption. Quitela being the one who beat Beerus at an arm wrestling competition is something plausible since Beerus, in the anime, noted how he "wasn't good with that guy," and surprisingly didn't retort against Quitela's snarky remark about U7 during the tournament.

You may say Jiren not only stronger than Belmod, but Beerus (which I doubt), but that also don't make him stronger than all Gods of Destruction.

When Jiren countered Goku's Genkidama, Shin says he was the strongest foe they ever faced, including Fused Zamasu, who Shin saw by himself.
At the same time, Whis revealed that he's the mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat.

The number of the episode and minute, please? I don't remember Shin mentioning Merged Zamasu in that sentence.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I don't know if you paid attention to the series in general, but the physical effect of powering up has no relation to the actual power output. It's like asking why anyone should be afraid of SSBlue Goku when his power ups have no effect on the environment.

It's not implied at all, U4 was full of jobbers and had no one close to GoD level, Whis said the guy who beat Beerus had a mortal stronger than him in his universe, and that's Jiren.

Before Goku goes to get Frieza Whis clearly states that the GoD who has the mortal stronger than him is also stronger than Beerus.

I think you probably began watching the series this year as no such thing was "the physical effect of powering up has no relation to the actual power output" was ever indicated in this franchise, but the otherwise. Also no characters should be afraid of whatever SSJ Blue power effects on the environment if they are above that level, period.

Are you serious? Saiyan Arc Vegeta shakes the planet by powering up whereas Super Vegetto's power up does nothing. Are you saying Vegeta > Vegetto.?

Also, SSBlue has no effect on the environment, it barely even causes a breeze, pay attention to the show and you'd realize this. You think anybody who can withstand a slight breeze can beat SSBlue?

[Noah]

Are you serious? Saiyan Arc Vegeta shakes the planet by powering up whereas Super Vegetto's power up does nothing. Are you saying Vegeta > Vegetto.?

Also, SSBlue has no effect on the environment, it barely even causes a breeze, pay attention to the show and you'd realize this. You think anybody who can withstand a slight breeze can beat SSBlue?

Sorry, but when we began to comparing feats, exactly? As I believe everyone knows here this is pretty inconsistent in this franchise like the shockwaves generated by the clash between SSJ God vs. Beerus that never returned after...

My point is that I'm not denying Beerus could be impressed by Jiren power, but also being afraid seeing him overwhelming Goku in his Base form? Non sense.

[TheSaiyanGod]

When Jiren countered Goku's Genkidama, Shin says he was the strongest foe they ever faced, including Fused Zamasu, who Shin saw by himself.
At the same time, Whis revealed that he's the mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat.

And Jiren never used his full power.

So, Jiren > Half-corrupted Fused Zamasu = SsjB Vegito.
And it doesn't matter if the latter was as strong as Beerus in the manga, because the anime is a completely different thing.

Infinite Zamasu is a differt thing as well. Goku and co needed the Highest God living to beat him. So, there's nothing Jiren could do to him.

In the anime Vegetto SSB> Merged Zamasu

Vegetto clearly was stronger than Zamasu, even playing with him during the fight (we know that this is his personality, but he also showed himself serious in other moments of the fight).
The Final Kamehameha did not work because Zamasu was immortal (in fact, we are not even sure if the attack hit him)

[dragon boss z]

When Jiren countered Goku's Genkidama, Shin says he was the strongest foe they ever faced, including Fused Zamasu, who Shin saw by himself.
At the same time, Whis revealed that he's the mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat.

And Jiren never used his full power.

So, Jiren > Half-corrupted Fused Zamasu = SsjB Vegito.
And it doesn't matter if the latter was as strong as Beerus in the manga, because the anime is a completely different thing.

Infinite Zamasu is a differt thing as well. Goku and co needed the Highest God living to beat him. So, there's nothing Jiren could do to him.

In the anime Vegetto SSB> Merged Zamasu

Vegetto clearly was stronger than Zamasu, even playing with him during the fight (we know that this is his personality, but he also showed himself serious in other moments of the fight).
The Final Kamehameha did not work because Zamasu was immortal (in fact, we are not even sure if the attack hit him)

It didn't hit him, he defused beforehand.

[Bullza]

[Why is Hitto above Vegeta, Freeza and Toppo?

Just in terms of sheer ability. I agree that he'd have less power than those three but his abilities would likely be enough to stop them. Even Goku only put up a fight because he's a genius fighter and fought him before.

Jiren also considered him one of the two threats along with Goku. Not Vegeta or Frieza.

Gohan is not close to the SSB level. He is on the same level as Goku SSJ2 and this became clear (at least in previous episodes). If not, we would have to say that Saonel and Pirina = Goku SSB

He could be, it's still pretty unclear. If Base Gohan is on the same level as Base Goku then Piccolo should be on the same level as Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Ultimate Gohan is far stronger than that.

Hopefully the next episode makes it clear.

[Zamasu55]

I don't know if you paid attention to the series in general, but the physical effect of powering up has no relation to the actual power output. It's like asking why anyone should be afraid of SSBlue Goku when his power ups have no effect on the environment.

It's not implied at all, U4 was full of jobbers and had no one close to GoD level, Whis said the guy who beat Beerus had a mortal stronger than him in his universe, and that's Jiren.

Before Goku goes to get Frieza Whis clearly states that the GoD who has the mortal stronger than him is also stronger than Beerus.

I think you probably began watching the series this year as no such thing as "the physical effect of powering up has no relation to the actual power output" was ever indicated in this franchise, but the otherwise. Also no characters should be afraid of whatever SSJ Blue power effects on the environment if they are above that level, period.

Please, saying things like "Quitela is weak because the warriors he brought to the tournament were weaklings" is just a silly assumption. Quitela being the one who beat Beerus at an arm wrestling competition is something plausible since Beerus, in the anime, noted how he "wasn't good with that guy," and surprisingly didn't retort against Quitela's snarky remark about U7 during the tournament.

You may say Jiren not only stronger than Belmod, but Beerus (which I doubt), but that also don't make him stronger than all Gods of Destruction.

When Jiren countered Goku's Genkidama, Shin says he was the strongest foe they ever faced, including Fused Zamasu, who Shin saw by himself.
At the same time, Whis revealed that he's the mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat.

The number of the episode and minute, please? I don't remember Shin mentioning Merged Zamasu in that sentence.

Shin: Jiren is far beyond anything we've ever seen.

Shin has seen Fused Zamasu. End of.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Shin: Jiren is far beyond anything we've ever seen.

Shin has seen Fused Zamasu. End of.

Don't bother, this guy tries to downplay Jiren in the face of all logic and facts. It's like arguing with a flat earther.

[Noah]

Shin: Jiren is far beyond anything we've ever seen.

Shin has seen Fused Zamasu. End of.

That doesn't mean jack as Shin never saw the full extend of Vegetto Blue and Beerus power.

[TheSaiyanGod]

[Why is Hitto above Vegeta, Freeza and Toppo?

Just in terms of sheer ability. I agree that he'd have less power than those three but his abilities would likely be enough to stop them. Even Goku only put up a fight because he's a genius fighter and fought him before.

Jiren also considered him one of the two threats along with Goku. Not Vegeta or Frieza.

Gohan is not close to the SSB level. He is on the same level as Goku SSJ2 and this became clear (at least in previous episodes). If not, we would have to say that Saonel and Pirina = Goku SSB

He could be, it's still pretty unclear. If Base Gohan is on the same level as Base Goku then Piccolo should be on the same level as Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Ultimate Gohan is far stronger than that.

Hopefully the next episode makes it clear.

Vegeta is also intelligent and a battle genius, Piccolo recognized this in Saga Cell and Whis also (he saw Hitto's techniques twice, unraveling them would not be a problem). Freeza is insightful, not sure if he could do the same, but probably yes.

Jiren did not know Vegeta or Frieza. He only considered Hitto as a threat because he saw him facing his teammate, Dyspo. That does not mean anything

In the battle between Piccolo and Gohan VS Goku and Tenshinhan, the Namekuseijin stayed the whole fight gathering Ki to use a full-scale attack and Goku was able to defend in base form.

In the Boo Saga, Gohan's Ultimate state was much stronger than Goku SSJ3. But now, Goku SSJ2 manages to match the fight against his son, showing that the base form of Gohan does not have the same level as the base form of Goku

[ZombieVito]

Merged Zamasu (Corrupted) is not touching Jiren. The latter is confirmed to be above GoD tier while the former is on that level. Jiren wins.

Infinite Zamasu on the other hand? Jiren is fucked.

[Bullza]

What about Merged Zamasu vs Super Saiyan 2 Kefla then?

I don't think I could see Kefla putting up as good a fight against Blue Vegito as Merged Zamasu did who tanked a Final Kamehameha.

[ZombieVito]

What about Merged Zamasu vs Super Saiyan 2 Kefla then?

I don't think I could see Kefla putting up as good a fight against Blue Vegito as Merged Zamasu did who tanked a Final Kamehameha.

The thing with Kefla is that we don't know if her Super Saiyan forms give the same boost.

Kale's controlled Super Saiyan form was keeping up with a SSG Goku that was very tired but most likely still over his SS3 transformation.

[Bullza]

The thing with Kefla is that we don't know if her Super Saiyan forms give the same boost.

Kale's controlled Super Saiyan form was keeping up with a SSG Goku that was very tired but most likely still over his SS3 transformation.

I'd say she probably did. I don't see why that ability or aspect of power wouldn't have crossed over into the fusion, she had the green hair too so that might have been an indication.

In which case I could see Super Saiyan Kefla being stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito but weaker than Super Saiyan God Vegito. Whether Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be above that or not I have no idea.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The thing with Kefla is that we don't know if her Super Saiyan forms give the same boost.

Kale's controlled Super Saiyan form was keeping up with a SSG Goku that was very tired but most likely still over his SS3 transformation.

I'd say she probably did. I don't see why that ability or aspect of power wouldn't have crossed over into the fusion, she had the green hair too so that might have been an indication.

In which case I could see Super Saiyan Kefla being stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito but weaker than Super Saiyan God Vegito. Whether Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be above that or not I have no idea.

She should be well above Vegetto, I doubt he was as powerful as the GD, and even if he was he surely wasn't over twice as powerful as it like Kefla. There's also the fact that Beerus was entirely unperturbed by Zamasu's ki whereas Belmond who is implied to be above Beerus in the anime admits that the GD had him worried, and he was talking about Jiren who he knows is above him.

There's also the fact that Shin says Jiren is beyond anything else they've faced, ie: above Merged Zamasu, and Whis says he's at the level of a GoD or has even surpassed it, but Goku still felt that the GD would be able to beat him, this is backed up by the other Gods noting that it's a tremendous amount of energy. This means that it should at least be capable of giving some trouble to the GoDs, and Kefla matched it while she was still holding back.

Thus it seems to me that Vegetto should definitely be weaker than her unless he was just holding back against Zamasu.

[ZombieVito]

The thing with Kefla is that we don't know if her Super Saiyan forms give the same boost.

Kale's controlled Super Saiyan form was keeping up with a SSG Goku that was very tired but most likely still over his SS3 transformation.

I'd say she probably did. I don't see why that ability or aspect of power wouldn't have crossed over into the fusion, she had the green hair too so that might have been an indication.

In which case I could see Super Saiyan Kefla being stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito but weaker than Super Saiyan God Vegito. Whether Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be above that or not I have no idea.

We have no way of knowing.

Jiren was not going all out with initial UI Goku so that Goku is definitely not GoD tier.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I see the debates of who is G.o.D level has started up again. So i guess i am going to put my opinion out there based on statements.

Fused Zamasu: in the manga, he seems to be just as strong as his halo form in the anime. Since he didnt get a power up there, Manga zamasu is below G.o.D level, by quite a bit. Corrupted Fused Zamasu Was VASTLY superior to his previous self, so much so that he was able to go toe to toe with a SSB Vegito, and was only defeated by the all powerfull, omnipotent savior: Genkisword Trunks. So in my opinion, Corrupted Zamasu is at least on the lowest level of G.o.D.

Vegito Blue: In the anime, he is strong enought to fight against Corrupted Merged Zamasu, and was able to have the upperhand against him. He is so strong that the fusion cant maintain itself for more than 10 minutes. In the manga, shin even says that vegito might have surpassed beerus in power. So in my opinion, SSB Vegito is most likely G.o.D tier, possibly High G.o.D tier.

UI Goku: Nothing much can be said about him. He was never compared to the gods in terms of power, but rather that the gods have trouble using UI. That being said, he should be able to tangle with Gods. Id say that he has yet to reach the power of G.o.D, but that will change once he fights jiren again.

SS2 Kefla: i dont want to scale her to the G.o.Ds, but she should be at least near the weakest ones. Trust me, i know how much it hurts me to say that she is that powerfull, but sometimes you need to let go of bias, and face facts.

Jiren: First of all, Jiren is the only character so far that has been directly stated to be superior to his god of destruction, without any doubt. Not only that, but whis even speculates he might be above that level in general.
Jiren is at the very least a High tier G.o.D level being, possibly above G.o.D completely, but not for certain.

So if i were to scale them, it would be something like this.
Jiren > SSB vegito > UI Goku > C. Merged Zamasu > SS2 Kefla.


At the end of the tournament it might be:
Jiren >=< UI Goku > SSB Vegito > Merged Zamasu > SS2 Kefla


(BTW, SS2 Kefla would stomp Halo Merged Zamasu if we go by feats and statements)

[TheUltimateNinja]

I see the debates of who is G.o.D level has started up again. So i guess i am going to put my opinion out there based on statements.

Fused Zamasu: in the manga, he seems to be just as strong as his halo form in the anime. Since he didnt get a power up there, Manga zamasu is below G.o.D level, by quite a bit. Corrupted Fused Zamasu Was VASTLY superior to his previous self, so much so that he was able to go toe to toe with a SSB Vegito, and was only defeated by the all powerfull, omnipotent savior: Genkisword Trunks. So in my opinion, Corrupted Zamasu is at least on the lowest level of G.o.D.

Vegito Blue: In the anime, he is strong enought to fight against Corrupted Merged Zamasu, and was able to have the upperhand against him. He is so strong that the fusion cant maintain itself for more than 10 minutes. In the manga, shin even says that vegito might have surpassed beerus in power. So in my opinion, SSB Vegito is most likely G.o.D tier, possibly High G.o.D tier.

UI Goku: Nothing much can be said about him. He was never compared to the gods in terms of power, but rather that the gods have trouble using UI. That being said, he should be able to tangle with Gods. Id say that he has yet to reach the power of G.o.D, but that will change once he fights jiren again.

SS2 Kefla: i dont want to scale her to the G.o.Ds, but she should be at least near the weakest ones. Trust me, i know how much it hurts me to say that she is that powerfull, but sometimes you need to let go of bias, and face facts.

Jiren: First of all, Jiren is the only character so far that has been directly stated to be superior to his god of destruction, without any doubt. Not only that, but whis even speculates he might be above that level in general.
Jiren is at the very least a High tier G.o.D level being, possibly above G.o.D completely, but not for certain.

So if i were to scale them, it would be something like this.
Jiren > SSB vegito > UI Goku > C. Merged Zamasu > SS2 Kefla.


At the end of the tournament it might be:
Jiren >=< UI Goku > SSB Vegito > Merged Zamasu > SS2 Kefla


(BTW, SS2 Kefla would stomp Halo Merged Zamasu if we go by feats and statements)

Kefla should be above UI Goku, she was stated to be comparable to the Genki Dama in SSJ and above TV Special UI Goku in SSJ2. She was also capable of killing a powered up UI Goku in one attack.

[buutenks]

My issue with Kefla is not the asspull power ups, i dont care for those. Since i had no issue with anime FT getting that form and stuff out of nowhere. But my issue is, she is stated to rival the Genki Dama as a ssj, but doesnt actually show it. Either she was holding back a ton while fighting ssj blue Goku and then just went full power with that 1 kick, or the Genki Dama isnt as strong as we r led to believe. That is my issue.

Tho ssj2 kefla is very strong from her showings and statements. Piccolo said enraged ssj2 Kefla is stronger than inital Ui Goku.

Now why i dont consider her above ssj blue Vegetto from Ft arc. Reason is because UI is very odd, he has perfect dodging, but his tanking ability is well non existant and his offense isnt that good. basically while i see current UI Goku dodging around vegetto blue and such, he mostly likely wont be able to hurt him much. Similar to Jiren, while Ui Goku landed some blows, it did 0 damage, and Whis explains it perfectly why that is. He cant attack properly, so his attacks are weak.

i see it like this:

Jiren>Vegetto Blue(FT arc)>max Kefla>/= Monster Zamasu. Battle Power wise.