Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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TheSaiyanGod
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:04 pm

Bullza wrote:So I'd say these are the Top 10 fighters of the Tournament.

1. Jiren
2. Goku
3. Kefla
4. Hit
5. Vegeta
6. Frieza
7. Toppo
8. Dyspo
9. Gohan
10. Pirina

Frieza, Vegeta and Toppo are interchangeable, they all seem to be on the exact same level.

Dyspo could be lower perhaps, depending on how strong Gohan is then you could probably remove Dyspo and replace him with Saonel. Android 17 could also edge in there.

Next week that Universe 3 Fusion Robot will surely knock Pirina off.
Why is Hitto above Vegeta, Freeza and Toppo?

In terms of power, it is inferior to all those cited. The only thing that could give him the victory would be the cage of time, but the fact that he took Jiren does not mean that he would take anyone in this technique.
He needed very convenient situations in the match to hit this attack (including distractions with the stones from the arena). With knowledge of this technique, I do not see Vegeta, Freeza or Toppo being caught by this technique

Gohan is not close to the SSB level. He is on the same level as Goku SSJ2 and this became clear (at least in previous episodes). If not, we would have to say that Saonel and Pirina = Goku SSB
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
gofishus wrote:
Bullza wrote:
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than that Ultra Instinct Goku.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito should be on a whole other level from Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and Merged Zamasu was able to hold his own against him quite well.
Where's proof that SSJ2 Kefla is stronger than UI Goku? Doesn't seem to be the case in the anime...
His attacks initially weren't hurting her and it's heavily implied that if it weren't for his reactions he'd get destroyed. That was before he powered up, though. Though there's also the fact that even a single attack from her final barrage connecting would have killed him.
Goku's attacks did not hurt Kefla because he had not yet mastered the offensive part of Ultra Instinct. This even implies that if this were not the case, Kefla would have taken great damage from UI Goku (showing that she does not have the same level as him).

UI Goku proved to be much stronger than Kefla SSJ2, and in EP 116 no power increase was shown in relation to the UI shown in EP 110

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:06 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Goku's attacks did not hurt Kefla because he had not yet mastered the offensive part of Ultra Instinct. This even implies that if this were not the case, Kefla would have taken great damage from UI Goku (showing that she does not have the same level as him).

UI Goku proved to be much stronger than Kefla SSJ2, and in EP 116 no power increase was shown in relation to the UI shown in EP 110
Kefla was stated to be above 110 UI and Goku powered up beyond that too. Later on, in the middle of the episode, Goku powers up even further and this is confirmed by Kefla stating that he's powered up.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:19 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Where was it implied? If anything it's the opposite with Whis stating that Beerus can erase anything in the Arale episode.

Also, there's no need for Jiren to fight for eternity. He can stop to rest whenever he wants, Zamasu's attacks probably can't even break him out of his meditation.

Furthermore, who says it'll even get to the point where Zamasu turns into Infinite Zamasu? Jiren probably doesn't have anything like the Genki Dama sword and would probably just toss Zamasu into a black hole.
Nope, Whis wouldn't need to trap Zamasu if Beerus could kill him. Also destroying a soul =/= killing an immortal.

Zamasu can literally attack Jiren for eternity without resting. Jiren can't fight forever so he will die eventually. Jiren can't create black holes either.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:21 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Where was it implied? If anything it's the opposite with Whis stating that Beerus can erase anything in the Arale episode.

Also, there's no need for Jiren to fight for eternity. He can stop to rest whenever he wants, Zamasu's attacks probably can't even break him out of his meditation.

Furthermore, who says it'll even get to the point where Zamasu turns into Infinite Zamasu? Jiren probably doesn't have anything like the Genki Dama sword and would probably just toss Zamasu into a black hole.
Nope, Whis wouldn't need to trap Zamasu if Beerus could kill him. Also destroying a soul =/= killing an immortal.

Zamasu can literally attack Jiren for eternity without resting. Jiren can't fight forever so he will die eventually. Jiren can't create black holes either.
Jiren can just fly him out to one easily, he should be faster than Beerus who can cross a Nebula in minimal time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:25 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote: Jiren can just fly him out to one easily, he should be faster than Beerus who can cross a Nebula in minimal time.
How can you fly out the entire universe?
Last edited by ZombieVito on Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:26 pm

ZombieVito wrote: How can you fly out the entire universe?
Zamasu can't fuse with the universe of his own will.

And you can do it the same way Whis does, really fast.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:29 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote: Zamasu can't fuse with the universe of his own will.

And you can do it the same way Whis does, really fast.
According to whom?

In any case I only said Infinite Zamasu beats him not Corrupted.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:38 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote: Zamasu can't fuse with the universe of his own will.

And you can do it the same way Whis does, really fast.
According to whom?

In any case I only said Infinite Zamasu beats him not Corrupted.
His physical form had to be destroyed first.

And Infinite Zamasu is just Vanilla Zamasu since Black is long gone and he doesn't even have Merged Zamasu's face.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:39 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote: His physical form had to be destroyed first.

And Infinite Zamasu is just Vanilla Zamasu since Black is long gone and he doesn't even have Merged Zamasu's face.
Gowasu said that Zamasu was the one that cast away his form as a god and became the universe.

And no. That's not how fusions work, like at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:47 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote: His physical form had to be destroyed first.

And Infinite Zamasu is just Vanilla Zamasu since Black is long gone and he doesn't even have Merged Zamasu's face.
Gowasu said that Zamasu was the one that cast away his form as a god and became the universe.

And no. That's not how fusions work.
He only did that after he disintegrated.

Zamasu originally had the fusion echo voice but it later turned into a mono-voice indicating his mortal half was gone.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:48 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Zamasu originally had the fusion echo voice but it later turned into a mono-voice indicating his mortal half was gone.
That's not how fusion works.
Last edited by ZombieVito on Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:49 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: Gowasu said that Zamasu was the one that cast away his form as a god and became the universe.

And no. That's not how fusions work.
Zamasu originally had the fusion echo voice but it later turned into a mono-voice indicating his mortal half was gone.
That's not how fusion works.
Says who?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:50 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote: Zamasu originally had the fusion echo voice but it later turned into a mono-voice indicating his mortal half was gone.
That's not how fusion works.
Says who?
Black's soul and Zamasu's are there, they fused. It doesn't have Merged Zamasu's face or the echo voice because Goku's body is long gone.
Last edited by ZombieVito on Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:54 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: That's not how fusion works.
Says who?
Black's soul and Zamasu's are there, they fused. It doesn't have Merged Zamasu's body or the echo voice because Goku's body is long gone.
That's assuming Black's soul would still look like Zamasu even after he switched bodies with Goku.

Considering Frieza had his cybernetic enhancements in the afterlife, the soul changes to reflect physical changes in other words even if Zamasu died he'd still look like Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:58 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:That's assuming Black's soul would still look like Zamasu even after he switched bodies with Goku.

Considering Frieza had his cybernetic enhancements in the afterlife, the soul changes to reflect physical changes in other words even if Zamasu died he'd still look like Goku.
Fusion is different. You are creating a completely different being with two components. If that fusion dies then the souls don't separate.

That's how fusion works. That's why the old Witch didn't appear when Elder Kaioshin died.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:04 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:That's assuming Black's soul would still look like Zamasu even after he switched bodies with Goku.

Considering Frieza had his cybernetic enhancements in the afterlife, the soul changes to reflect physical changes in other words even if Zamasu died he'd still look like Goku.
Fusion is different. You are creating a completely different being with two components. If that fusion dies then the souls don't separate.

That's how fusion works. That's why the old Witch didn't appear when Elder Kaioshin died.
But he kept her appearance even after he died, he didn't just turn back into what he originally looked like.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:38 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:I don't know what show you watched, but you think Beerus is merely impressed here?
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Also, show me where it's stated in the anime that Quitela is the one Beerus lost to.

And the rumor is that there's a mortal that even a GoD can't beat, and that GoD is above Beerus.

Then Whis confirms that Jiren is this mortal.

Therefore Jiren > GoD > Beerus.
I don't know if you paid attention to that scene right, but Goku was in his Base form, so please why would Beerus be afraid of guy overwhelming Goku in that state, something that he can also do with ease?

It wasn't stated but implied, since Beerus also knows Quitela and didn't have interacted with Belmod once in the arc.

Whis confirmed "there is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat" and the scene cuts to Belmod after his statement, implying that this only applies to Universe 11, Jiren is not stronger than all Gods of Destruction, but Belmod.

Therefore Jiren > Belmod only

We know that the Gods have not the same battle power and not even where Belmod is set on the list, so it's implausible to assume he's stronger than all Gods to say Jiren is motherf****** stronger than everyone.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:08 pm

Noah wrote: I don't know if you paid attention to that scene right, but Goku was in his Base form, so please why would Beerus be afraid of guy overwhelming Goku in that state, something that he can also do with ease?

It wasn't stated but implied, since Beerus also knows Quitela and didn't have interacted with Belmod once in the arc.

Whis confirmed "there is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat" and the scene cuts to Belmod after his statement, implying that this only applies to Universe 11, Jiren is not stronger than all Gods of Destruction, but Belmod.

Therefore Jiren > Belmod only

We know that the Gods have not the same battle power and not even where Belmod is set on the list, so it's implausible to assume he's stronger than all Gods to say Jiren is motherf****** stronger than everyone.
I don't know if you paid attention to the series in general, but the physical effect of powering up has no relation to the actual power output. It's like asking why anyone should be afraid of SSBlue Goku when his power ups have no effect on the environment.

It's not implied at all, U4 was full of jobbers and had no one close to GoD level, Whis said the guy who beat Beerus had a mortal stronger than him in his universe, and that's Jiren.

Before Goku goes to get Frieza Whis clearly states that the GoD who has the mortal stronger than him is also stronger than Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:09 pm

Noah wrote: I don't know if you paid attention to that scene right, but Goku was in his Base form, so please why would Beerus be afraid of guy overwhelming Goku in that state, something that he can also do with ease?
After Geran's initial power, there's no evidence of Geran powering up before UI Goku besides maybe the Genki-Dama. It's best to say that Geran powered up enough initially to be surpassed SSJBKKx20. This is supported by Geran's initial power up shaking the WoV and not even Goku accomplished that until he achieved UI.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:11 pm

When Jiren countered Goku's Genkidama, Shin says he was the strongest foe they ever faced, including Fused Zamasu, who Shin saw by himself.
At the same time, Whis revealed that he's the mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat.

And Jiren never used his full power.

So, Jiren > Half-corrupted Fused Zamasu = SsjB Vegito.
And it doesn't matter if the latter was as strong as Beerus in the manga, because the anime is a completely different thing.

Infinite Zamasu is a differt thing as well. Goku and co needed the Highest God living to beat him. So, there's nothing Jiren could do to him.

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