Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Piccolo is saying in other words that if Kefla’s power up from before (Super Saiyan) could draw out Goku’s power (Ultra Instinct), then SS2 Kafla can possibly make Goku even more powerful (which wasn’t necessary). It isn’t implied Kafla’s power surpassed Ultra Instinct in any way. The idea here is just to talk about the neverending circle of power-ups that Goku and Kafla were demonstrating through the whole fight and to be fair who read the spoilers beforehand already knew this.

And those never ending power ups were compared to Goku's former UI level. Otherwise Piccolo wouldn't need to say UI Goku needs to respond to Kefla's power by drawing out more power cause she surpassed his former UI level. It's as simple as pie.

I wouldn’t be so sure of that for two reasons. First, in the episode before, SS Kafla was clearly cornered by Blue with kaioken and had to figure out a way to counter that power. I don’t buy that her power suddenly skyrocketed to genkidama’s level just because she used a tatic to beat Blue. If we are talking about effect, so I agree Kafla affected Goku in the same way the genkidama did. Second, Goku didn’t need to power-up further to beat SS2 Kafla. Though they were both very confident in victory, Goku analized the situation properly and proved to be the best using Ultra Instinct.

But Goku DID power up while IN Ultra Instinct mode. And Kefla while HOLDING back, rivals the power of the spirit bomb and beat KK Blue Goku. Then she surpasses that power by going SSJ2, followed by Piccolo's statement about Kefla surpassing Goku's former UI level. Goku proving that statement correct by drawing out more power in UI mode.This is a canon fact and can't be ignored just cause some don't like it. The action and the dialogue match.

[HeroR]

Of course, she still had SS2 hidden. When I say kaioken I say any kaioken.


As you recall, Super Saiyan Blue is also said to rival the power of Gods of Destruction. I think I never saw anyone claiming they are equally powerful at this point, so I don’t understand why it should be different for Kefla.

I literally addressed this twice:

Even if we say she was weaker than the Spirit Bomb in pure power since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was called a form that rivaled the gods while still being well below them, that still surpassed Goku's level as a Blue Kaioken x20.


The reason why, she wasn't compared to 'full powered, healthy Blue Kaioken x20 Goku', but a Spirit Bomb that was supposed to beat Jiren.

You are saying Kefla is closer to the genkidama than Blue is close to the Gods of Destruction, using literally the same reason (rivalry).

If she was closer to a healthy Blue Kaioken x20, then Whis would have said not. Not a Spirit Bomb that is well above that, especially is she’s weaker than Goku at his peak.

And rival just mean on par or within that level. Not an actual math figure, so the “Blue is close to the Gods of Destruction” is a none factor.

[TheSaiyanGod]

You need to complete the sentence ...
Whis says after that:

'' It incited Goku-san ... allowing him to break through another of his self-limiting shells ''

That is, the energy of Kefla as SSJ rivals that of Genki Dama, causing Goku to break its limits again. Again, the context of this may be that Kefla's energy only prompted Goku to use the UI, not necessarily having the same amount of power as the Genki Dama.
If you want to consider that Kefla SSJ = Genki Dama> SSB KK x20, this gets even more confusing because you also need to consider that Goku SSB KK (tired)> Kefla SSJ = Goku SSB (tired).
After all, Kefla SSJ stood trembling after only ONE punch from Blue KK.
And was shaken to get up, injured, after being hit in full by another punch of the Blue KK, proving to be much weaker

But if you want to use the context of the amount of energy, it still does not prove that Kefla SSJ> Goku SSB KK x20
It was said that the SSB rivals the gods, and yet he proved to be much more than 20x weaker than a God of Destruction. If it were the same with Kefla then that would fit in with Piccolo's speech (that she overcame Goku a 'little while ago', in EP 115, a tired SSB KK)

The context is that Kefla's power rivaled the Spirit Bomb that nearly killed Goku and trigger his UI, not that only Kefla's energy prompted the changed. Whis was referencing her overall strength. This is what the show is telling us.

She trembled for a moment and then took Goku down in one kick. And Kefla even said she wanted to fight Goku longer, indicting that she wasn't even going all out at that moment. She also wasn't that injured since she was literally fine in the next second.

I have already addressed that in my last post:

Even if we say she was weaker than the Spirit Bomb in pure power since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was called a form that rivaled the gods while still being well below them, that still surpassed Goku's level as a Blue Kaioken x20.


The reason why, she wasn't compared to 'full powered, healthy Blue Kaioken x20 Goku', but a Spirit Bomb that was supposed to beat Jiren.

It was a Genki Dama who should overcome the power of Goku SSB KK x20 in theory, but in practice she did not do much better than him, on the contrary, Jiren had little effort to push her (he made effort when Goku turned into Blue KK x20 to push her, but the technique itself proved to be no problem for him).

I repeat what I said, the SSB was said to rival the gods anyway and it proved to be much more than 20x WEAKER than a GoD for example.

Even if Genki Dama> KK x20 and Kefla was compared to GK, then she can also be much more than x20 weaker than all the power of this technique,
making his power less than Blue KK (and remembering that Goku was betting on her to defeat Jiren, but she did not do better than KK).

Another thing I'm going to repeat (and you seem to ignore), if Goku SSB KK proved to be much stronger than Kefla SSJ (no matter if she was not defeated, she was much weaker), then he would automatically also have a power comparable to that of this GK if you want to consider the context of Whis speech as being '' she has as much energy as that of GK '' (even though it became very ambiguous and Whis said shortly after that Kefla incited Goku to use the UI, and that was exactly what GK did)

[Hugo Boss]

But Goku DID power up while IN Ultra Instinct mode. And Kefla while HOLDING back, rivals the power of the spirit bomb and beat KK Blue Goku. Then she surpasses that power by going SSJ2, followed by Piccolo's statement about Kefla surpassing Goku's former UI level. Goku proving that statement correct by drawing out more power in UI mode.This is a canon fact and can't be ignored just cause some don't like it. The action and the dialogue match.

We are not discussing preferences. This comes rude from your part. If we’re saying Piccolo was talking about “former Ultra Instinct level” when he only said “earlier Son [Goku]’s level”, we are in the assumption’s field. An ambiguous claim like that allows a different interpretation.

If she was closer to a healthy Blue Kaioken x20, then Whis would have said not. Not a Spirit Bomb that is well above that, especially is she’s weaker than Goku at his peak.

And rival just mean on par or within that level. Not an actual math figure, so the “Blue is close to the Gods of Destruction” is a none factor.

Okay, so at least we agree that they aren’t necessarily on par with each other. I personally don’t have an issue with Whis’ claim because if Blue can rival the Gods of Destruction, it can also rival the genkidama that Goku bathed in.

[Miracles]

But Goku DID power up while IN Ultra Instinct mode. And Kefla while HOLDING back, rivals the power of the spirit bomb and beat KK Blue Goku. Then she surpasses that power by going SSJ2, followed by Piccolo's statement about Kefla surpassing Goku's former UI level. Goku proving that statement correct by drawing out more power in UI mode.This is a canon fact and can't be ignored just cause some don't like it. The action and the dialogue match.

We are not discussing preferences. This comes rude from your part. If we’re saying Piccolo was talking about “former Ultra Instinct level” when he only said “earlier Son [Goku]’s level”, we are in the assumption’s field. An ambiguous claim like that allows a different interpretation.

It's not ambiguous when Piccolo states that maybe UI Goku could draw out further power due to Kefla surpassing his earlier level.
Why would current UI Goku need to draw out his power "further" if Kefla hasn't surpassed his "earlier" level of UI? It's clear when the context is taken into consideration.

[Bullza]

I read the newest chapter, doesn't really tell us much aside from the fact that Android 18 is indeed way stronger than Krillin.

Some were thinking that might not actually be the case but she is as she should be.

And then yeah the feat with Jiren being MTFL which shouldn't be too much of a surprise. That was mentioned already though.

[Hugo Boss]

But Goku DID power up while IN Ultra Instinct mode. And Kefla while HOLDING back, rivals the power of the spirit bomb and beat KK Blue Goku. Then she surpasses that power by going SSJ2, followed by Piccolo's statement about Kefla surpassing Goku's former UI level. Goku proving that statement correct by drawing out more power in UI mode.This is a canon fact and can't be ignored just cause some don't like it. The action and the dialogue match.

We are not discussing preferences. This comes rude from your part. If we’re saying Piccolo was talking about “former Ultra Instinct level” when he only said “earlier Son [Goku]’s level”, we are in the assumption’s field. An ambiguous claim like that allows a different interpretation.

It's not ambiguous when Piccolo states that maybe UI Goku could draw out further power due to Kefla surpassing his earlier level.
Why would current UI Goku need to draw out his power "further" if Kefla hasn't surpassed his "earlier" level of UI? It's clear when the context is taken into consideration.

In my perspective, and you are not obligated to agree, Piccolo was talking about the whole fight. Also, you even said “maybe Goku could get stronger if Kafla surpassed Ultra Instinct”, but Goku didn’t need to power-up further by his own admission.

[Miracles]

We are not discussing preferences. This comes rude from your part. If we’re saying Piccolo was talking about “former Ultra Instinct level” when he only said “earlier Son [Goku]’s level”, we are in the assumption’s field. An ambiguous claim like that allows a different interpretation.

It's not ambiguous when Piccolo states that maybe UI Goku could draw out further power due to Kefla surpassing his earlier level.
Why would current UI Goku need to draw out his power "further" if Kefla hasn't surpassed his "earlier" level of UI? It's clear when the context is taken into consideration.

In my perspective, and you are not obligated to agree, Piccolo was talking about the whole fight. Also, you even said “maybe Goku could get stronger if Kafla surpassed Ultra Instinct”, but Goku didn’t need to power-up further by his own admission.

But Goku IN UI did power up and continued to do so. Piccolo wasn't talking about their whole fight cause his subject was UI Goku and Kefla inciting each other to power up. Then after Kefla responds to UI Goku's powering uo, Piccolo states UI Goku being at a disadvantage BY hoping THIS current UI Goku could draw out more power WHILE powering up. If Kefla was only above KKBluex20 Goku [Despite the truth Whis already stated she rivaled Genki Dama in SS. Which was stronger than KKx20 Blue], Piccolo wouldn't hope UI Goku could draw out his power even FURTHER due to Kefla surpassing his former level of UI.

BTW, HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO EVERYBODY!!!

[Hugo Boss]

It's not ambiguous when Piccolo states that maybe UI Goku could draw out further power due to Kefla surpassing his earlier level.
Why would current UI Goku need to draw out his power "further" if Kefla hasn't surpassed his "earlier" level of UI? It's clear when the context is taken into consideration.

In my perspective, and you are not obligated to agree, Piccolo was talking about the whole fight. Also, you even said “maybe Goku could get stronger if Kafla surpassed Ultra Instinct”, but Goku didn’t need to power-up further by his own admission.

But Goku IN UI did power up and continued to do so. Piccolo wasn't talking about their whole fight cause his subject was UI Goku and Kefla inciting each other to power up. Then after Kefla responds to UI Goku's powering uo, Piccolo states UI Goku being at a disadvantage BY hoping THIS current UI Goku could draw out more power WHILE powering up. If Kefla was only above KKBluex20 Goku [Despite the truth Whis already stated she rivaled Genki Dama in SS. Which was stronger than KKx20 Blue], Piccolo wouldn't hope UI Goku could draw out his power even FURTHER due to Kefla surpassing his former level of UI.

BTW, HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO EVERYBODY!!!

Fine, I respect your opinion. I just don’t see it like this for the reasons I stated in last few pages. Though, there is the possibility Goku isn’t operating purely by power, so while Kafla might have an edge in this aspect she lacked good movements to beat Goku. Happy thanksgiving!

Changing the subject a bit, I’m still looking for clarification about how Toppo compared Jiren and Vermoud in the manga. Was he talking about power or skill?

[Helios518]

Changing the subject a bit, I’m still looking for clarification about how Toppo compared Jiren and Vermoud in the manga. Was he talking about power or skill?

Toppo was compared them in power. "Toppo flat-out says Geran is stronger than the U11 God of Destruction Belmod 'in terms of battle power'. Well, I guess that's settled." - Herms

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/920703851916705792

[The_Destroyer]

If 18 is stronger than Rebrianne, then Katopesla could solo Universe 2. Whirwhind Speed Mode Katopesla > 18, I believe.

[Noah]

If 18 is stronger than Rebrianne, then Katopesla could solo Universe 2. Whirwhind Speed Mode Katopesla > 18, I believe.

Please, we never saw this guy in action, he's probably another fodder like Dr. Rota.

[TheSaiyanGod]

It's not ambiguous when Piccolo states that maybe UI Goku could draw out further power due to Kefla surpassing his earlier level.
Why would current UI Goku need to draw out his power "further" if Kefla hasn't surpassed his "earlier" level of UI? It's clear when the context is taken into consideration.

In my perspective, and you are not obligated to agree, Piccolo was talking about the whole fight. Also, you even said “maybe Goku could get stronger if Kafla surpassed Ultra Instinct”, but Goku didn’t need to power-up further by his own admission.

But Goku IN UI did power up and continued to do so. Piccolo wasn't talking about their whole fight cause his subject was UI Goku and Kefla inciting each other to power up. Then after Kefla responds to UI Goku's powering uo, Piccolo states UI Goku being at a disadvantage BY hoping THIS current UI Goku could draw out more power WHILE powering up. If Kefla was only above KKBluex20 Goku [Despite the truth Whis already stated she rivaled Genki Dama in SS. Which was stronger than KKx20 Blue], Piccolo wouldn't hope UI Goku could draw out his power even FURTHER due to Kefla surpassing his former level of UI.

BTW, HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO EVERYBODY!!!

I think that all this was simply too implied to be stated with such certainty
Aside from no one else in the arena being surprised that Kefla had supposedly reached a level that only 2 warriors in the tournament had hit (not even Vegeta, who was surprised when he saw Goku with that power). Piccolo in no time says explicitly that she overcame UI Goku (a phrase that would certainly have an impact), on the contrary, was only said to have surpassed Goku's previous level, and this can be interpreted in several ways.

Even if you consider the context this is not clear, after all Goku UI did not even need to increase his power to face Kefla SSJ2 (neither was stronger than in the fight against Jiren) and Kefla only represented the least threat with his last resources in which she was exploding in anger.
The speech of Genki Dama is even more implicit and becomes incoherent if you want to talk that in amount of energy, Kefla SSJ = GK, because you need to also consider that Goku SSB KK (tired)> Kefla SSJ.

I simply put her on the SSB tier - SSB KK, since everything on EP 116 was implied

[pacz360]

I dont get the issue
base kelfa > ssj god
Ssj kelfa=ssjb kkx20 +spirt bomb
Ss2 kefla >=< first intial UI goku
Her last attack was strong enough to threaten Ui goku
Seriously this fanbase really let's there bias shows

[TheSaiyanGod]

I dont get the issue
base kelfa > ssj god
Ssj kelfa=ssjb kkx20 +spirt bomb
Ss2 kefla >=< first intial UI goku
Her last attack was strong enough to threaten Ui goku
Seriously this fanbase really let's there bias shows

Kefla only managed to pose a bit of a threat to Goku UI when she used her last resort (a particularly cutting technique, like Kiezan) at the same time that she exploded with hatred (which temporarily increases the power of the Saiyans). Showing that he was still much weaker than UI Goku.
Besides that, any attack of Ki used exceeds the power of the user himself (as we saw in the fight against Raditz and Vegeta, for example).

And if you consider Kefla SSJ> Goku SSB KK x20, you should also consider that Goku SSB KK (tired)> Goku SSB KK x20 (which makes no sense), after all, SSB KK (tired)> Kefla SSJ.
You can not interpret the scenes so literally (as this Whis speaks), you have to consider the context of it, otherwise it becomes simply inconsistent

[pacz360]

I dont get the issue
base kelfa > ssj god
Ssj kelfa=ssjb kkx20 +spirt bomb
Ss2 kefla >=< first intial UI goku
Her last attack was strong enough to threaten Ui goku
Seriously this fanbase really let's there bias shows

Kefla only managed to pose a bit of a threat to Goku UI when she used her last resort (a particularly cutting technique, like Kiezan) at the same time that she exploded with hatred (which temporarily increases the power of the Saiyans). Showing that he was still much weaker than UI Goku.
Besides that, any attack of Ki used exceeds the power of the user himself (as we saw in the fight against Raditz and Vegeta, for example).

And if you consider Kefla SSJ> Goku SSB KK x20, you should also consider that Goku SSB KK (tired)> Goku SSB KK x20 (which makes no sense), after all, SSB KK (tired)> Kefla SSJ.
You can not interpret the scenes so literally (as this Whis speaks), you have to consider the context of it, otherwise it becomes simply inconsistent

Ssj Kefla holding back given she stated wanted to fight goku some more and she knocked him outta of ssjb kk with a kick
Whis stated her power in ssj rivaled ssjb kkx20 unless u can prove whis doesnt wtf hes talking about its clear as day to me ssj kefla=ssjb kkx20 Unless proven otherwise
ssj2 kefla is far stronger
The cognitive dissonance here is staggering in this place

[The_Destroyer]

If 18 is stronger than Rebrianne, then Katopesla could solo Universe 2. Whirwhind Speed Mode Katopesla > 18, I believe.

Please, we never saw this guy in action, he's probably another fodder like Dr. Rota.

He was about to beat up Android 18 AND Vegeta is going to get hit by his attack in 117.

[Sandubadear]

Ssj Kefla holding back given she stated wanted to fight goku some more and she knocked him outta of ssjb kk with a kick
Whis stated her power in ssj rivaled ssjb kkx20 unless u can prove whis doesnt wtf hes talking about its clear as day to me ssj kefla=ssjb kkx20 Unless proven otherwise
ssj2 kefla is far stronger
The cognitive dissonance here is staggering in this place

Goku didn't yell "x20" so probably he was just using x2 Kaioken. She knocked him out of Kaioken Blue because he only had stamina for a final attack, which was the Kamehameha. So she is either equal or below a tired x2 Kaioken Blue Goku.

[pacz360]

Ssj Kefla holding back given she stated wanted to fight goku some more and she knocked him outta of ssjb kk with a kick
Whis stated her power in ssj rivaled ssjb kkx20 unless u can prove whis doesnt wtf hes talking about its clear as day to me ssj kefla=ssjb kkx20 Unless proven otherwise
ssj2 kefla is far stronger
The cognitive dissonance here is staggering in this place

Goku didn't yell "x20" so probably he was just using x2 Kaioken. She knocked him out of Kaioken Blue because he only had stamina for a final attack, which was the Kamehameha. So she is either equal or below a tired x2 Kaioken Blue Goku.

Proof or nothing on that one bruh
Unless we think whis doesn't know WTF he's talking about its obvious ssj kelfa=ssjbkkx20 goku plus spirit bomb via his words
Kefla was specifically compared to the spirit bomb goku used against jiren don't see any reason to believe it's inferior to ssjbkk

[Sandubadear]

Proof or nothing on that one bruh
Unless we think whis doesn't know WTF he's talking about its obvious ssj kelfa=ssjbkkx20 goku plus spirit bomb via his words
Kefla was specifically compared to the spirit bomb goku used against jiren don't see any reason to believe it's inferior to ssjbkk

You are the one who thinks it's x20 even though there is nothing supporting it.