Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If Frost is so much stronger than 18 why didn't he fight with her? Why did he run away from her?

Off topic but I found it hilarious how both Vegeta and 18 called him a bastard.

That's just Frost's nature. He's gone out of his way to target weakened and vulnerable targets, and is generally a sneaky and cunning bastard that doesn't want to directly confront others unless he has some advantage. And in a tournament where power differences don't matter as much as people would like them to matter, he wouldn't bother trying to take on a target as pragmatic and untiring as 18.

Not when there's a bunch of other weaker and stamina-prone fighters around.

[apex_pretador]

Ignoring your play of words, and coming straight to point.

there's overall much more evidence to think that Piccolo is above base Goku;

Such as?

• Goku outright tanking a charged blast of one of the strongest techniques of Piccolo
• Base Gohan (post unlocking Mystic) and Base goku are equals, and Base Gohan in current battle Royal appears to be better off than Piccolo.
• Tagoma
• Goku wasn't even serious when sparring against fit buu, who he called superior to fat buu

#18 - if not outright stronger, since there's quite the decent chance the scene was written with that intent in mind - shouldn't however be that far off base Goku herself even if we want to play devil's advocate with her lifting feat. Her blasts hurt Tupper and Tupper is strong enough to bind base Goku even before he raises his weight

.[/quote]

What I infer from this scene:

"A weight-manipulating pride trooper - Tupper, gets a hold of Goku when he is off guard. With his teammate, they start giving goku difficulty, who is helped by android 18 and they fend them off easily"


Now, your argument

Her blasts hurting tupper - Okay, just because her blasts hurt tupper who was "weighting down Goku" doesn't mean base Goku's blasts couldn't. Remember that the physical strength and energy capabilities of Dragon Ball characters aren't the same. Roshi couldn't even move a 300 ton rock much in DB but could blow up the moon.
Plus, it is entirely possible for characters to have different resistance against physical strength and energy blasts, where a prime example being plum - who could bounce back energy attacks but not physical attacks like rocks being thrown or Dr Rota grabbing him.

Base Goku was bind even before weight increase - Goku has been taking this fight mostly casually. He even gets critisized by #18 when she "saves" him "You got caught off guard again?" and remember that Goku agrees.

Okay, anything else?

[dragon boss z]

18 was shown throughout the tournament to not be complete trash compared to her brother, who's apparently a scary enemy for Goku.

People are overhyping 17 from that one episode imo. I think is probably around Piccolo level.

she outperformed Base Goku against the Pride Troppers

Not really. She just wasn't playing like Goku was.

while Piccolo lost both his arms against those sniper fodders who Base Goku and Vegeta had no trouble with after Ten figured out the secret behind their trick.

The writers just love to rip Piccolo's arms off. For gods sake they even had a Frieza soldier do it, lmao. And that sniper wasn't that bad. His sniping shot scared Vegeta and cut his face.

Piccolo beat a Rusty SS2 Gohan and him training with Ultimate Gohan doesn't mean much considering Base Saiyans as early as the Copy Vegeta arc were already on that level judging by how easily Base Vegeta defeated SS3 Gotenks and the Saiyans have become considerably stronger since then.

The only base saiyans above ssj3 Gotenks are Goku and Vegeta fighting at full power seriously. It seems like next episode final form Frieza may fight mystic Gohan, and if he does and holds his own that would prove base Goku and Vegeta hold back against weaker opponents considering final form Frieza is about equal with base Goku.

[dragon boss z]

Even though frost explicitly mentions that it's incredibly hard for him to pull his punches so much that he doesn't accidentally kill Roshi?
Frost was able to trade blows with Super Saiyan Vegeta when he had help from Magetta.

Frost was pushed back for a few seconds dodging Roshi's punches. Do I have to remind you way this makes absolutely no sense even if he is pulling his punches?
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Are you telling me that a nearly dying Roshi is somehow comparable to super-freaking-saiyan Vegeta?

No, I'm telling you Super makes no sense.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Even though frost explicitly mentions that it's incredibly hard for him to pull his punches so much that he doesn't accidentally kill Roshi?
Frost was able to trade blows with Super Saiyan Vegeta when he had help from Magetta.

Frost was pushed back for a few seconds dodging Roshi's punches. Do I have to remind you way this makes absolutely no sense even if he is pulling his punches?
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Are you telling me that a nearly dying Roshi is somehow comparable to super-freaking-saiyan Vegeta?

No, I'm telling you Super makes no sense.

I believe the best way to put it is this:

In the Tournament of Power, your fighting ability, rather than fighting power, is what determines how well you do.

[apex_pretador]

Even though frost explicitly mentions that it's incredibly hard for him to pull his punches so much that he doesn't accidentally kill Roshi?
Frost was able to trade blows with Super Saiyan Vegeta when he had help from Magetta.

Frost was pushed back for a few seconds dodging Roshi's punches. Do I have to remind you way this makes absolutely no sense even if he is pulling his punches?
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Are you telling me that a nearly dying Roshi is somehow comparable to super-freaking-saiyan Vegeta?

No, I'm telling you Super makes no sense.

Except Roshi never managed to tag Frost and Frost was just toying with him.

[LowRyder2005]

Ignoring your play of words, and coming straight to point.

The play of words was necessary, I'm afraid. There's a thin line between sharing your thoughts honestly and making it appear like you're playing devil's advocate to strengthen what is only how you want to view the facts. Use extensively non-aggressive, assertive forms like, "I think", "in my opinion" next time and you ought to have no problems.

Such as?

• Goku outright tanking a charged blast of one of the strongest techniques of Piccolo
• Base Gohan (post unlocking Mystic) and Base goku are equals, and Base Gohan in current battle Royal appears to be better off than Piccolo.
• Tagoma
• Goku wasn't even serious when sparring against fit buu, who he called superior to fat buu

Such as Piccolo being vastly superior to Super Saiyan Gohan who is superior to base Goku who transforms into a Super Saiyan to face him, instead of suppressing his base form (with an extreme suppression, in fact, supposing he can beat the Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks of the Buu arc by lifting a finger or so).

The idea that he would go Super Saiyan and then suppress his Super Saiyan form to below base levels is filmsy to say the least. All the other instances have been throughly proven to be 100% inconclusive and much easier to justify in this very thread countless times, either by me or other users; I'm absolutely not gonna go through them again. They can all be justified by characters (Goku or whoever is fighting) suppressing themselves or not seriously trying to hurt each other, unlike Goku vs. Gohan from before Gohan re-trains, obviously, which would makes Goku simply act in an incomprehensible fashion for the viewer or just "incomprehensibly" in general. Base Gohan has also done virtually nothing which would put him above Piccolo in the tournament, so I don't understand what should be the reference here.

Her blasts hurting tupper - Okay, just because her blasts hurt tupper who was "weighting down Goku" doesn't mean base Goku's blasts couldn't. Remember that the physical strength and energy capabilities of Dragon Ball characters aren't the same. Roshi couldn't even move a 300 ton rock much in DB but could blow up the moon.
Plus, it is entirely possible for characters to have different resistance against physical strength and energy blasts, where a prime example being plum - who could bounce back energy attacks but not physical attacks like rocks being thrown or Dr Rota grabbing him.

*sigh* It sounds like you're simply reaching to me, but I won't object nor go Ockham's Razor to claim that it's simply easier to follow the long established rule "ki blasts hurt = character is not totally inferior". I at least hope this type of open-mindedness applies to all other instances and not only those that reinforce your convinctions.

Base Goku was bind even before weight increase - Goku has been taking this fight mostly casually. He even gets critisized by #18 when she "saves" him "You got caught off guard again?" and remember that Goku agrees.

I have no qualms against a "Goku is too stupid" argument, just know that it's not a very good argument when your claim has a pretense of conclusiveness. You started with a "#18 is weaker than Goku"; if you want to argue that characters do not act rational when they should be forced to you may as well admit your claim can't be proved. Also, I only see the same double standards creeping in again: "it is entirely possible that there are many types of difference resistances... but, hey, #18's words only meant what I think they meant and prove Goku didn't raise his power level in base". Yeah, no, it doesn't work like that.

I think you might just have one huge problem in separating facts and interpretations even at a really basic level. Then again, reading most of those who posted in the last two pages it seems like it's a shared problem.

[apex_pretador]

Such as Piccolo being vastly superior to Super Saiyan Gohan who is superior to base Goku who transforms into a Super Saiyan to face him, instead of suppressing his base form (with an extreme suppression, in fact, supposing he can beat Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks by lifting a finger or so).

And exactly what makes SS Gohan vs SS Goku fight more valid, more canon or more reliable than SS3 Gotenks vs Base vegeta fight?
If we are ignoring the latter, then why not ignore the former also if it creates inconsistency with the rest of the story?

Her blasts hurting tupper - Okay, just because her blasts hurt tupper who was "weighting down Goku" doesn't mean base Goku's blasts couldn't. Remember that the physical strength and energy capabilities of Dragon Ball characters aren't the same. Roshi couldn't even move a 300 ton rock much in DB but could blow up the moon.
Plus, it is entirely possible for characters to have different resistance against physical strength and energy blasts, where a prime example being plum - who could bounce back energy attacks but not physical attacks like rocks being thrown or Dr Rota grabbing him.

*sigh* It sounds like you're simply reaching to me, but I won't object nor go Ockham's Razor to claim that it's simply easier to follow the long established rule "ki blasts hurt = character is not totally inferior". I at least hope this open-mindness applies to all other instances and not only those that reinforce your convinctions.

I'm not reaching, this is honestly what I got when #18 blasts hurt him.
I read marvel comics, and in Marvel comics, someone who can lift a few thousand tonnes (like Thing or colossus) will never be able to tank a moonbuster, so this is not a "new idea" for me. I can see someone like Namor or even the Hulk easily restraining base goku but not be able to tank his blasts.

Base Goku was bind even before weight increase - Goku has been taking this fight mostly casually. He even gets critisized by #18 when she "saves" him "You got caught off guard again?" and remember that Goku agrees.

I have no qualms against a "Goku is too stupid" argument, just know that it's not a very good argument when your claim has a pretense of conclusiveness. You started with a "#18 is weaker than Goku"; if you want to argue that characters do not act rational when they should be forced to you may as well admit your claim can't be proved. Also, I only see the same double standards creeping in again: "it is entirely possible that there are many types of difference resistances... but, hey, #18's words only meant what I think they meant and prove Goku didn't raise his power level in base". Yeah, no, it doesn't work like that.

Except that's literally what they said, that Goku was caught off-guard again.
I'm just trying to clear up things that may make people think that #18 may be as strong or stronger than Base Goku. This is not the evidence which puts Goku above 18, but there is plenty of other evidence, including scaling from Piccolo, Tagoma, fit buu etc.

[LowRyder2005]

And exactly what makes SS Gohan vs SS Goku fight more valid, more canon or more reliable than SS3 Gotenks vs Base vegeta fight?
If we are ignoring the latter, then why not ignore the former also if it creates inconsistency with the rest of the story?

Did you read my post? First off, to justify the occurrence of Gotenks, why don't we follow the same “what if” approach too you used to advocate the possibility of "different types of resistance":

- It is entirely possible Gotenks was extremely weaker due to lack of training, or some other possibility under which Gotenks ended up weaker than what he was in the Buu arc.
- It is entirely possible Copy-Vegeta doesn’t exactly scale off base Vegeta, or that he can raise his power without going Super Saiyan and yet he suppressed himself against base Goku.
- It is entirely possible that there are two base forms with separate levels of power.
- It is entirely possible the writer of the Copy-Vegeta arc made a blunder and that neither Toriyama nor Toyotaro are designing the story to reflect base Goku > Buu Arc SS3 Gotenks, much like in the past Yamcha would beat up Olibu and then later by treated as the same puny Earthling.

The reason why Gohan vs. Goku would take precedence is simply because the intent is clearly to show Goku and Gohan as comparable if not equal; if it's not, the fact remains that everything else can be reconciled by assuming one character is not trying to hurt the other (which is fairly easy since they're all training or mock fights), in Goku's case Goku's transformation should serve the same purpose as every other time regardless of it being a spar or not. Again, the fact that it doesn't make any apparent sense for Goku to turn Super Saiyan to gain the power to handle handle Gohan if he can already handle Gohan at extremely suppressed base levels is literally as self-demonstrating as it can get.

I'm not reaching.

Fairly certain you are, considering what I read to be your mileage on other issues and the general statements stemming from either confirmation bias or some partiality. But okay, let's say you are not.

Except that's literally what they said, that Goku was caught off-guard again.
I'm just trying to clear up things that may make people think that #18 may be as strong or stronger than Base Goku. This is not the evidence which puts Goku above 18, but there is plenty of other evidence, including scaling from Piccolo, Tagoma, fit buu etc

First off, nope, there's no "evidence" in the way you're trying to claim it constitutes evidence. The thing closest to actual evidence is Gohan vs. Goku for the reasons stated above since it simply breaks a fairly important logical principle otherwise, and even Gotenks vs. Goku follow more of a general consensus rule than anything else. Secondly, you really didn't understand anything of what I tried to say in the post, did you? But okay, I guess I need to dumb down my explanation further. Goku being caught off-guard also doesn't mean he couldn't free himself immediately with a kiai or by powering up; narratively, if Tupper could block him it means that he could be weaker (Goku could restrain Raditz, after all) but the gap shouldn't be the one between a farmer and King Piccolo or any higher at least according to everything we know about the series' consistency.

[lord turbo]

- It is entirely possible the writer of the Copy-Vegeta arc made a blunder and that neither Toriyama nor Toyotaro are designing the story to reflect base Goku > SS3 Vegeta, much like in the past Yamcha would beat up Olibu.

I disagree that its a blunder considering in the manga DBS manga base Black > SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga). The same Black as a SSJ got his ass beat silly by SSJ Vegeta therefore this would conclude base Vegeta > base Black making him by default more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Another point is that back during the Tarble special SSJ Goku outperformed SSJ Gotenks (Both manga and anime version) which would suggest SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks. The Tarble special takes place two years after the Buu saga and two years before the BoGs arc, plenty of time for Goku to become stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks before he meets Beerus. So far, it looks like the anime did no wrong with showing base Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks since he already was in the manga.

narratively, if Tupper could block him it means that he could be weaker (Goku could restrain Raditz, after all) but the gap cannot be the one between a farmer and King Piccolo.

Ummm...You're neglecting important information here, Raditz was critically injured by angry Gohan caving his chest in making him weak enough were a severely injured and beaten Goku could restrain and hold him in place against his will, before that Raditz godstomp the hell out of Goku with the utmost of ease will holding back by his own admission. When the gap is as large as Raditz vs. Goku & Piccolo or Kaioken Goku vs Nappa a weaker character ain't restraining anything.

As for where does 18 fit in all of this, out of all her showings she kicked away SSJB Goku's Kamehameha, tossed the Tupper guy that gave base Goku issues, and physically moved Cocotte's barrier with her bare hands, the same barrier that couldn't be budge slightly by LSSJ Kale and SSJ2 Caulifla's combined X-mas blast that broke the other barrier and ringed out the other pride troopers this is important since LSSJ Kale earlier manhandled SSJ2 Goku like he was a newborn infant and walked through SSJB Goku's Kamehameha like morning breeze (Keep in mind Goku could have went SSJG, but felt SSJB was more appropriate) then I think its safe to say that so far 18's been giving a massive buff far behind the like of a mere namekian (Piccolo).

[dragon boss z]

Except Roshi never managed to tag Frost and Frost was just toying with him.

He was desperately dodging while clearly looking somewhat scared, and if you look closely he actually blocked some.

[TAF108]

I'm kinda disappointed, we were border-line denied a view of Frost's gains. It seems like he's still weaker than Vegeta, so Hit must've been humoring him before.

Roshi's stamina was pretty good all things considered, with the Mafuba and all. I was worried he'd actually give Frost trouble, but good to know he was clearly just toying with him.

Frost held his own against Super Saiyan Vegeta. That's a big increase considering Vegeta has also increased his power since the last tournament a big deal.

Fair enough. It looked to me like he relying a bit heavily on Magetta in that scene. Not a knock against him, as that's a solid strategy seeing how he no sells SSJ Vegeta's attacks in both tournaments. Can we even really call it a tournament? It's a battle royal after all. Eh whatever. I supposed I was overlooking his brief exchanges with Vegeta, but I suppose we'll get to see even more from Frost depending on how 108 goes.

[Lord Frieza]

Oh you guys a gonna love this...

[spoiler]In the manga it's been reveled that it was Quitela that beat Beerus at arm wrestling, although Beerus retorts he's never been beaten in battle.

The strongest Ladies and Gents!

[/spoiler]

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Oh you guys a gonna love this...

[spoiler]In the manga it's been reveled that it was Quitela that beat Beerus at arm wrestling, although Beerus retorts he's never been beaten in battle.

The strongest Ladies and Gents!

[/spoiler]

Guess Jiren ain't the mortal that surpasses a God of Destruction, after all.

Doesn't have to mean he's weaker than Belmod, of course, just not stronger than him.

[Hugo Boss]

Oh you guys a gonna love this...

[spoiler]In the manga it's been reveled that it was Quitela that beat Beerus at arm wrestling, although Beerus retorts he's never been beaten in battle.

The strongest Ladies and Gents!

[/spoiler]

Fresh reveal at last! Quite ironic that he is a mouse. Maybe one of the remaining fighters from Universe 4 has a formidable ability.

[Lord Frieza]

Also in the manga, Beerus is running circles around the other GoD because of the "body reacts instinctively" teachings of Whis and not necessarily due to power alone.

[TheOne]

Except Roshi never managed to tag Frost and Frost was just toying with him.

He was desperately dodging while clearly looking somewhat scared, and if you look closely he actually blocked some.

This is so embarrassing to see...

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

Except Roshi never managed to tag Frost and Frost was just toying with him.

He was desperately dodging while clearly looking somewhat scared, and if you look closely he actually blocked some.

Pardon me if I'm out of the loop, but is this the first time we've ever seen Roshi levitate/fly?

[dragon boss z]

Except Roshi never managed to tag Frost and Frost was just toying with him.

He was desperately dodging while clearly looking somewhat scared, and if you look closely he actually blocked some.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Pardon me if I'm out of the loop, but is this the first time we've ever seen Roshi levitate/fly?

It kind of looks like he is but that is impossible for 2 reasons.
1. Roshi still can't fly, as he stated himself recently
2. Nobody can fly in the ToP stage unless they have wings

[BlueBasilisk]

Pardon me if I'm out of the loop, but is this the first time we've ever seen Roshi levitate/fly?

It's probably more of that not-really-fliying air dashing. There was something kinda like this in the Goku/Caulifla fight but if you looked closely you could see Goku quickly kick off the ground every few frames.