Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Ki Breaker]

So Dyspo is stronger then SSG Goku and his faster then Goku and Hit, but his fighting style is to predicatable as he's to used to his speed being his trump card.

Edit: Also his super speed allows him to punch above his weight class much like the Flash.

How is he stronger?
Goku never said anything about his strength, only his speed, that's what makes him troublesome..
Super speed only applies when he is moving fast, and he can't move fast in succession, like hit pointed out, that would make hus attacks slower and hence weaker as well, Goku could block him easy because he dosen't hit too hard, only fast..

Also, what do you know, Lord Frieza, your Justice loving team just got their justice slapped out of them

Speed is the single most important attribute and factor in any fight. What good is strength and power if you can neither dodge or hit your opponent.

And how does that make dyspo "stonger" than SSG?

[Saturnine]

If Dyspo was only fast, his punches wouldn't do shit to Hit. Just like having disproportionately more strength than speed will do you no good in a battle, the same holds for having disproportionately more speed. There was clearly a lot of power behind Dyspo's punches too, otherwise Hit would just no sell them.

[Ki Breaker]

If Dyspo was only fast, his punches wouldn't do shit to Hit. Just like having disproportionately more strength than speed will do you no good in a battle, the same holds for having disproportionately more speed. There was clearly a lot of power behind Dyspo's punches too, otherwise Hit would just no sell them.

Yes there was, even after taking so many hits, neither hit nor SSG Goku went down..
This situation dosen't make his strength greater than SSG..

[Saturnine]

So confirmation that DBZ characters only now just reached light speeds and that Goku and other characters from the original manga were far below lightspeed

It is not confirmation of that, not by a long shot. It might have been just for emphasis or as exposition. Also, sound was mentioned alongside light, do you really think the guys from Z were below sound speed?

If Dyspo was only fast, his punches wouldn't do shit to Hit. Just like having disproportionately more strength than speed will do you no good in a battle, the same holds for having disproportionately more speed. There was clearly a lot of power behind Dyspo's punches too, otherwise Hit would just no sell them.

Yes there was, even after taking so many hits, neither hit nor SSG Goku went down..
This situation dosen't make his strength greater than SSG..

Yeah, because Goku sure went down after taking many hits from Broly in Movie 8. Guess that means Broly wasn't any stronger than Goku there

Of course I do realize that with the power difference everyone seems to be forcing in this case, Goku should have died after several punches tops, but Toei is Toei.

Again, if SSj God Goku was stronger than Dyspo to any significant extent, he'd have tanked the blows without being blasted away.

[Ki Breaker]

Yeah, because Goku sure went down after taking many hits from Broly in Movie 8. Guess that means Broly wasn't any stronger than Goku there

Just to clarify, in Broly's fight he was visible tired and getting tortured mercilessly..
It was called slaughter for a reason

[JazzMazz]

If Dyspo was only fast, his punches wouldn't do shit to Hit. Just like having disproportionately more strength than speed will do you no good in a battle, the same holds for having disproportionately more speed. There was clearly a lot of power behind Dyspo's punches too, otherwise Hit would just no sell them.

Yes there was, even after taking so many hits, neither hit nor SSG Goku went down..
This situation dosen't make his strength greater than SSG..

Dypso isn't that strong, he just hit's stupidly hard because of how quickly he can accelerate. That's why he was surprised Hit didn't go down in a single blow. Basic physics explain how his able to hit so hard, Force = Mass x Acceleration, someone whose surpassed light hitting you in the face is bound to do a lot of damage. This video gives a good explanation on roughly how hard someone near the speed of light would hit.

[Ki Breaker]

If Dyspo was only fast, his punches wouldn't do shit to Hit. Just like having disproportionately more strength than speed will do you no good in a battle, the same holds for having disproportionately more speed. There was clearly a lot of power behind Dyspo's punches too, otherwise Hit would just no sell them.

Yes there was, even after taking so many hits, neither hit nor SSG Goku went down..
This situation dosen't make his strength greater than SSG..

Dypso isn't that strong, he just hit's stupidly hard because of how quickly he can accelerate. That's why he was surprised Hit didn't go down in a single blow. Basic physics explain how his able to hit so hard, Force = Mass x Acceleration, someone whose surpassed light hitting you in the face is bound to do a lot of damage.

He can't move fast in quick successions, which makes only few of his attacks hit hard.. This is what dosen't qualify his strength as high end, sometimes he hits hard other times he can't...

[JazzMazz]

Yes there was, even after taking so many hits, neither hit nor SSG Goku went down..
This situation dosen't make his strength greater than SSG..

Dypso isn't that strong, he just hit's stupidly hard because of how quickly he can accelerate. That's why he was surprised Hit didn't go down in a single blow. Basic physics explain how his able to hit so hard, Force = Mass x Acceleration, someone whose surpassed light hitting you in the face is bound to do a lot of damage.

He can't move fast in quick successions, which makes only few of his attacks hit hard.. This is what dosen't qualify his strength as high end, sometimes he hits hard other times he can't...

Even when his not speed blitzing, he obviously posseses a decent level of strength, though I do think it's arguable how strong Dyspo really is(I would put him about as powerful as SSJ Goku without his speed blitz, and thats just based on the fact his non-heavy attacks were still able to do damage to SSG Goku and Hit).

[Kishido]

You got it all wrong, buddy. The theory is dead alright, but there was no "strong base". Except for RoF and Potaufeu of course. Again, there is no in-universe explanation, there is only an out of universe one - Goku and Vegeta would be way too strong in base to have any sort of challenge if their god-absorbed base was kept. There is no way in hell base Cabba, who had never even gone SSj before, was as strong as a Super Saiyan God. Just no way. This isn't "downplaying" anyone, it's just common freaking sense. Also, you don't go regular SSj off SBG, that alone should have been enough to notice that the SBG schtick was being retired. For all intents and purposes, right now there is only the weak, regular base (still many times stronger than 100% Namek Freeza right now due to all the trainings and fights that Goku and Vegeta have been through).

As for Goku not using SSj God until now, it's actualyl perfectly logical. For one, SSj Blue can be suppressed, for two it's not that taxing that you can't last against a single enemy long enough to finish the job. SSj God only became needed in a setting where you need to conserve your stamina, while providing a decent level of strength. This is just like people complaining "why didn't Goku use SSj3 but instead used a suppressed SSj Blue". Well

We saw the strong base several times like when he fought Slim Buu, when he tanked Piccolo's charged up attack, the same Piccolo that choked out Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, and seeing Freeza in base form waste everyone when he's stronger than ever and base form Goku was shown above him. And SBG never existed. It was a term created in Heroes, nothing more. The base form that fought Freeza, is just Goku's base form stronger than ever.

The rest is you just denying that certain characters can be so strong. They are. There's nothing more to say about it. Also, all Super Saiyan forms can be suppressed. This isn't some special trait of Blue. Goku had sex with Chi-Chi when he was a freaking Super Saiyan and she isn't dead.

It makes perfect sense, if you don't downplay everyone and insist everyone who fights base form Goku and Vegeta are only in the Cell Saga tier.

The two-base theory was a stupid theory created to downplay first the U6 fighters and then everyone that came after them and it never had any basics in the show since no one could explain why Goku used a weak base form against Frost, but his strong base form against Hit and no one commented on it, or pretending the in-between episodes didn't count.

So, good ridden to a theory that should have died a long time ago.

Y

So Base Goku = Final Form Freeza in RoF but weaker than Final Form Frost in U6 arc... Copy Base Vegeta >>>> Gotenks. Base Goku could fight "Monaka" but needs Super Saiyan and above for other fodder.

Not even talking about the other characters power scale where most of the people needed Goku or Vegeta to at least transform into Super Saiyan... Strangely in RoF against Freeza not.

Hell even Fat Buu who beat a guy Goku and Vegeta used Super Saiyan forms for... While Gotenks was way stronger than him

Or simply said... Final Form Freeza is weak, Beerus is not that great and Gotenks is a loser

Frost is stronger than Freeza in all other forms except golden. Not sure why this is hard to believe. The same with any other character you named.

Also, we only seen Fat Buu fight Basil who was the weakest of the three brothers and base form Goku when he was slim, which was a friendly sparring match.

Ok you want more stuff...

Every opponent of U6 needed at least Super Saiyan transformation... So everyone is stronger than Gotenks? Same goes for the likes as Krillin who spared off with Super Saiyan or Roshi going against Base Goku.

Same Base Goku fought Beerus in a Monaka costume. Goku fougth a weakened Gohan in Super Saiyan form... Or used Super Saisan 3 against Trunks... and so on.

So Gotenks is such a scrub? Further more I doubt that Frost for sure is stronger than Freeza in his Final Form... But at the time of RoF they haven't thought about it and people based the strengh on the 2 base theory.

Now it is dead... What's funny is... That they could have avoided al the discussion if SSG would have been reached first by both Vegeta and Goku and later SSB on top on that?

Even naming it Super Saiyan God was a mistake in my eyes.

[LowRyder2005]

It is not confirmation of that, not by a long shot. It might have been just for emphasis or as exposition. Also, sound was mentioned alongside light, do you really think the guys from Z were below sound speed?

I'm watching the battle and yes, you are right. It's only said he surpassed "sound and light speed through countless battles" as a general character bio of the sort. The Dyspo we see fighting Hit could be anywhere from 1.1 to God-knows-how-many of times faster than light.

I would've preferred if it was said in more clear terms he was among the very few surpassing light speed; then again, since they go out of their way to mention that, I'd still feel like it's the most probable implication.

[Kishido]

BTW and love the whole explaining nothing stuff... Trunks transformed and no one explained it in the anime... Heroes came out with Ikari and everything take it as canon name... Which is Heroes exclusive.

Same goes for SBG... Heroes came with it out because of the huge power jumo of Vegeta and Goku and people built it up for theories... Now it is dead.

I think TOEI/BANDAI should work more together to avoid such confusing stuff.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The super-speed warrior comes onto the scene! When Dyspo rockets his speed up thousands of times, you better watch out! Ain't no power level tanking to save you now! Also, it seems that getting caught in a hold is a common weakness in the Dragon Ball multiverse! That, or Dyspo just has a weakness to giant monsters

Also, if there are SOMEHOW still people clinging onto "SSG > SSB", this episode SURELY shuts you down, since SSB explicitly has increased speed AND power compared to SSG, just less stamina, like the difference between base and SS form.

Also, whilst I'm unhappy that there's no explicit explanation, I can deal with SSG's return. If you can use SSG's power to boost SS to SSB, you can probably just use SSG as well. That's gonna be my headcanon on this whole turn of events.

[Bullza]

So confirmation that DBZ characters only now just reached light speeds and that Goku and other characters from the original manga were far below lightspeed

I don't think that's probably the case. Toppo said that Dyspo had surpassed both Sound and Light. Does that mean that Dragon Ball Z characters were below the speed of sound? Nah.

If Dyspo was light speed whilst using his super speed technique...well they said that technique made him thousands of times faster so they'd all thousandths of the speed of light?

If they'd referred to what he was currently doing as being the speed of light then yeah but they didn't they just referred to it as his super speed and that he himself had surpassed Sound and Light.

[Lord Frieza]

Yes there was, even after taking so many hits, neither hit nor SSG Goku went down..
This situation dosen't make his strength greater than SSG..

Dypso isn't that strong, he just hit's stupidly hard because of how quickly he can accelerate. That's why he was surprised Hit didn't go down in a single blow. Basic physics explain how his able to hit so hard, Force = Mass x Acceleration, someone whose surpassed light hitting you in the face is bound to do a lot of damage.

He can't move fast in quick successions, which makes only few of his attacks hit hard.. This is what dosen't qualify his strength as high end, sometimes he hits hard other times he can't...

Ok I'm was hung over so let me explain my reasoning better know I can think lol.

Let's take out the speed for a sec. Dyspo was powerful enough to hurt Hit with his attacks, and not lightly. As it still stands Hit is comparable to SSB Goku. Goku likewise is not using ssg to beat Dyspo its to conserve energy and when he dose attack it's in blue. Goku can counter Dyspos speed but he could also counter Hits time skip in base, that's skill not power and Goku was still pushed back and damaged while Dyspo is relatively a-ok. So I rate Dyspo as stronger then Ssg Goku and his power behind Held back Toppo from the exhibition.

Also am I the only one who noticed that Dyspo's speed aura is the same as Tupper's weight one?

[LowRyder2005]

So Gotenks is such a scrub? Further more I doubt that Frost for sure is stronger than Freeza in his Final Form... But at the time of RoF they haven't thought about it and people based the strengh on the 2 base theory.

I've seen only his claim about how strong Final Form Freeza is supposed to be. I think the argument implicating he would be beaten by Super Saiyan Cabba doesn't make a lick of sense, to be honest. Freeza's already been seen literally stomping opponents that gave Super Saiyan Caulifla more than a bit of trouble, for starters, and every time he's on screen he's seen on a killing spree of the sort laying waste to this or that alien with a smile on his face. It's completely unreasonable to think they're writing him as someone belonging to one of the lowest tiers.

Let's not even start with #18 stronger than base Goku, there's Buu being completely undamaged against an amped Basil when base Goku can't even k.o. the regular one, etc.

I don't think that's probably the case. Toppo said that Dyspo had surpassed both Sound and Light. Does that mean that Dragon Ball Z characters were below the speed of sound? Nah.

If Dyspo was light speed whilst using his super speed technique...well they said that technique made him thousands of times faster so they'd all thousandths of the speed of light?

Per se, it's not wrong. Then again, what's the point of mentioning the thing at all, as if it was something worthy of being acknowledged and a characteristic of his, if everyone else does no prob? Upon further reflection on what the characters' rationale may be, I think we can rest assured that Dyspo surpassing the speed of light is supposed to be a big achievement thanks to the context, even though the wording in itself doesn't really make it clear.

Regarding the second question, Dyspo can't be faster than lightspeed when he's not moving. By multiplying his acceleration x times, he surpasses the speed of light. I'm inclined to think Super Saiyan God, Blue and Hit (and, by scaling, those above them) are the only ones approximately close to the speed of light; Dyspo is a little above that and can beat one of them, but not two of them together. At least, that's what the fight purported to show the audience.

[HeroR]

Ok you want more stuff...

Every opponent of U6 needed at least Super Saiyan transformation... So everyone is stronger than Gotenks? Same goes for the likes as Krillin who spared off with Super Saiyan or Roshi going against Base Goku.

Same Base Goku fought Beerus in a Monaka costume. Goku fougth a weakened Gohan in Super Saiyan form... Or used Super Saisan 3 against Trunks... and so on.

So Gotenks is such a scrub? Further more I doubt that Frost for sure is stronger than Freeza in his Final Form... But at the time of RoF they haven't thought about it and people based the strengh on the 2 base theory.

Now it is dead... What's funny is... That they could have avoided al the discussion if SSG would have been reached first by both Vegeta and Goku and later SSB on top on that?

Even naming it Super Saiyan God was a mistake in my eyes.

Botamo didn't need Super Saiyan and neither did Cabba before he got Super Saiyan himself. And what's wrong with U6 being stronger than Gotenks? Is there some kind of rule that says that they couldn't?

Really, you think Goku is using his full power against Roshi....not sure what to say that. As for Krillin, it was stated in Episode 83 that Krillin was way weaker than base form Gohan. Even if you think Gohan and Goku's base forms were equal at the time, that still puts Krillin below base form Goku. You're also ignoring that Goku went Super Saiyan to keep from getting ring out.

Given that base form Goku tanked an attack from Piccolo who strangled Super Saiyan 2 Gohan with eased, it's safe the say that Goku was dicking around, especially since Episode 90 stated that Gohan got stronger in general, not just getting Ultimate back, yet his base was only even with Goku's base form. Goku was also able to hold off Ultimate Gohan with Super Saiyan 2, which really wouldn't be possible if Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (who got strangled by Piccolo) and Super Saiyan 2 Goku were even before Gohan trained.

As for Trunks, you're ignoring the context of the fight. Goku went Super Saiyan 3 against Trunks to show off, not that he needed it. The sparring match wasn't even about Trunks. Goku wanted to know where he power stood in relation in Black. Even then, Super Saiyan 2 Trunks did nothing to Goku, all Goku did was blocked. For reference, Krillin did a better job actually making Goku move.

Gotenks is a scrub in that he hasn't gotten stronger since the Buu Saga, while characters have and new character come along that makes the Buu Saga fodder. And we know Frost is stronger than Freeza outside of the golden form, since Goku trained for three years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and trained for another eight months with Whis. So the Goku in the Champa Saga had almost four years worth of training after Resurrection 'F' and would be stronger, yet Frost in his third form held off base form Goku, while final form Freeza couldn't. It's probably the most straightforward scaling in the series. And why are you automatically assuming that "they haven't thought about it ", since the Champa Saga's script was written by the time they retold the Resurrection 'F'. They could have made any changes that they wanted to better match the Champa Saga, but instead we got a better idea how strong first form Freeza was when he killed Piccolo and put holes in Super Saiyan Gohan, when his movie counterpart only blindsided an off-guard base form Gohan.

The two-base theory was always just a downplaying tool created after Piccolo did well against Frost. It never had a basics since it never explained how Goku could used a weaker base against Frost, but his super strong base against Hit, but no one commenting on it.

[ekrolo2]

The only way Goku's power can make less sense now is if the anime brings back the 6-10-15 scale by saying BoG Goku at his best was worth 60% of Beerus' power. Literally every bridge for making sense has been burned, might as well nuke the last one.

[JazzMazz]

The only way Goku's power can make less sense now is if the anime brings back the 6-10-15 scale by saying BoG Goku at his best was worth 60% of Beerus' power. Literally every bridge for making sense has been burned, might as well nuke the last one.

Something that could be inferred fromt the epsisode is that Goku as a SSJ is as powerful as his SSG form but a lot slower. That's what Goku stated back in episode 13, when he said to Beerus he doesn't feel like he had lost any power.

[LowRyder2005]

Given that base form Goku tanked an attack from Piccolo who strangled Super Saiyan 2 Gohan with eased, it's safe the say that Goku was dicking around, especially since Episode 90 stated that Gohan got

No, it's not safe at all: Goku has no real discernible reason to power up from 1 to 10 and then power down to 0.01 while keeping the form against Gohan, of all people, when he could fight him in base form at equal power levels to get a kick out of the fight. It's most certainly not something I - or almost everyone else - is willing to buy.
Regarding Piccolo, you're overlooking the fact he might have just charged his attack for show. He has no reason to really hurt or kill Goku before the tournament.

As for Trunks, you're ignoring the context of the fight. Goku went Super Saiyan 3 against Trunks to show off, not that he needed it. The sparring match wasn't even about Trunks. Goku wanted to know where he power stood in relation in Black. Even then, Super Saiyan 2 Trunks did nothing to Goku, all Goku did was blocked. For reference, Krillin did a better job actually making Goku move.

When or where is it said Goku wants to "show off" the forms? Goku just wants to get a grasp of Black's power and he could've just powered up in base then.

The two-base theory was always just a downplaying tool created after Piccolo did well against Frost. It never had a basics since it never explained how Goku could used a weaker base against Frost, but his super strong base against Hit, but no one commenting on it.

And your take is that Goku acts nigh-incomprehensibly, powering up to Super Saiyan for cosmetical effects and powering down to lower-than-base levels when he could own everyone in base form, including SS2 Gohan and SS2 Trunks. It's not really mature on your part at all to come here demoting everything as a bunch of "stupid theories", "donwplaying tools" and then promote explanations that are stuffled with personal interpretations and/or arguments that really boil down to characters behaving irrationally or super counter-intuitively for the average viewer. This isn't about debating as much as getting a needed reality check before you present your argument.

[JazzMazz]

Guy's I've got this crazy idea that was not only implied in this episode, but in episode 13.

What if SSG has the same level of power as SS but is only a lot faster.

This makes sense with Goku's performance against Beerus in episode 13 and 14. Where, even though Goku is losing(which could be put down to a lack of speed), Beerus still sees the power of a God in him.

It also makes sense with Goku's statement during that fight that he hadn't felt like he had lost any power.

On a side note, it also makes sense that people like Gowasu think Goku's power rivals that of a God of Destructions in SS2.

This is just my theory, I know it's littered with broader implications, so what are peoples thoughts on it?