Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Boulouki
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Boulouki » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:36 pm

Bullza wrote:What's the best way of connecting GT to Super?

Isn't there anything direct to find a way to properly compare God, Blue, Golden Frieza etc to those from GT?

I know Heroes had Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan Blue equal but that's not necessarily the same GT Goku.
I mean you can only scale it.

Base GT Goku was as strong as Majin Buu at the start of GT
Base Super Goku was wayyy beyond ssj3 Gotenks even before the Future Trunks Arc.
Super Goku has a higher base and the the ssj multipliers will only increase the difference. but both shows have been inconsistent with their powers

Super Goku got scrapped by a bullet
GT Goku got cut by glass.

Oh also Xeno Goku is in no way related to GT goku, he even has God Ki but never trained with Whis to unlock Ssjb so be went with ssj 4

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:59 pm

Base and upwards through Super Saiyan 3 Goku should be stronger in Super than in GT.

But how Super Saiyan 4 compares to that is hard to say. Wasn't there some magazine that said he was weaker than Super Saiyan Vegito or something like that?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:28 pm

Bullza wrote:Base and upwards through Super Saiyan 3 Goku should be stronger in Super than in GT.
You're probably going to see most GT type fans disagreeing with that. People like to think Base GT Goku is obscenely strong.

I've seen arguments that since the skyscraper that Goku held up in the Shadow Dragons arc was probably extremely heavy, so he must be stronger than in Super where Goku struggles with those weights on Kai's planet and in the manga SSJ Vegeta can't even lift 1,000 tons

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:51 am

I'm sure people have already discussed this to death, but I'll just put out some observations from the movie about Broly's strength.

He starts out in base versus base Vegeta and hold his own well, though I'd give Vegeta an advantage given he starts overwhelming Broly in their clench even prior to going Super Saiyan. Even though the aura suggests he's starting to draw power from the transformation, for all intents and purposes he's still in base form.

Broly starts adapting to the fight, which closes the gap between them, so base form Broly at his maximum output is comparable to a Super Saiyan.

Vegeta turns God... mostly out of wishing to prove his superiority and finishing the fight quickly, as he doesn't seem overwhelemed or surpassed at any point. Base form Broly is stomped hard by Super Saiyan God, but once he starts using his Oozaru-lite form, gets enough of a boost to stand up to Vegeta.

Goku intervenes and at this point it seems that Broly gets another power-up, fully entering his Rage form, as the bulking up and the raising of the hair showcases. However, between the fact that Goku and Vegeta should still be equals in the same forms and the fact that Goku puts up a very good fight with Rage Broly and dominates him with God's techniques... I'd wager Broly gets yet another power-up/rage boost to escape the cage and that up to that point he isn't really up to par with the the God realm of power.

However, once this all goes down, Broly decimates Goku in high fashion. But, as Paragus notes after Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue, that's his maximum output. He can barely keep up with Goku in that state and at this point his untapped potential from lack of fights and proper training is fully realized... and he can't match a Super Saiyan Blue. What's interesting about this is that means up to now he's also been weaker than Golden Freeza, explaining why Freeza is so nonchalant about the situation.

Super Saiyan Broly then is confirmed to be above two Super Saiyan Blues and can keep pounding a Golden Freeza for hours without as much as a care in the world. I'd also say that his full power form, considering it isn't even in the script, probably isn't any noteworthy increase from that and Gogeta turns Blue for no real reason. The fact that the Fusion lasts so he didn't expend that much energy supports that as well.

Considering all the power-ups, transformations and rage boosts he gets Broly really isn't that crazy. I feel like Ultra Instinct would've been more than enough to deal with him. There's nothing that makes me put him above Jiren at all and I'd wager Beerus would deal with him pretty easily too, even considering Goku's statement.
Check out the videos below, made by yours truly!

Goku vs Beerus BOG/Super mash-up https://gofile.io/d/kKKnMe

Vegeta vs Freeza ROF/Super mash-up https://gofile.io/d/MKPepW

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:22 pm

Draconic wrote:after Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue, that's his maximum output. He can barely keep up with Goku in that state and at this point his untapped potential from lack of fights and proper training is fully realized... and he can't match a Super Saiyan Blue.
It’s more like he can’t outdo Goku in that state. They were pretty much even, with Goku having a slight edge on skill.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:22 pm

I don't see an issue with the GP missing Zamasu's havoc throughout the universe. Not like it lasted particularly long.

All 12 universes being Hakaishin-less seems like a bigger issue.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:56 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Draconic wrote:after Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue, that's his maximum output. He can barely keep up with Goku in that state and at this point his untapped potential from lack of fights and proper training is fully realized... and he can't match a Super Saiyan Blue.
It’s more like he can’t outdo Goku in that state. They were pretty much even, with Goku having a slight edge on skill.
Same with SS Broly and SS Gogeta.

Whenever Broly can land a similar hit on Gogeta, he sends him flying about as much as Gogeta does to him, and he can keep up evenly with Gogeta; he just fails to land any meaningful hits. And with SS Broly being almost certainly a straight Super Saiyan upgrade from his Oozaru Base, that'd put base Gogeta at about as strong as SSB Goku/Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:04 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Draconic wrote:after Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue, that's his maximum output. He can barely keep up with Goku in that state and at this point his untapped potential from lack of fights and proper training is fully realized... and he can't match a Super Saiyan Blue.
It’s more like he can’t outdo Goku in that state. They were pretty much even, with Goku having a slight edge on skill.
Goku was weakened though.

I doubt Broly would be able to keep up with a fresh SSB Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:28 pm

so, I watched a good version of DBS:Broly.

IMHO Super Saiyan Broly is about the same as Super Saiyan Gogeta in raw power, but Gogeta had the upper hand because his greater skill
Once Gogeta goes Blue, though, Broly never manages to reach him again. Even Full Power does nothing except keeps him from just croacking down

Everything before Gogeta, though, makes no sense whatsoever as far as power-levels are concerned.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hana Midorikawa » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:56 pm

Recently watched the film. Those who say Blue Goku was high above Broly aren’t remembering well. He was definitely superior but by a small margin. Ikari Broly was able to still go toe to toe/hold his own and land hits on him.

I’d say:
Ikari Broly (not significantly below SSB)/SSB Goku/SSB Vegeta/Golden Frieza/Base Gogeta<<<Super Saiyan Broly/Super Saiyan Gogeta<<<<<<SSFP Broly<SSB Gogeta

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:26 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Goku was weakened though.

I doubt Broly would be able to keep up with a fresh SSB Goku.
He seemed to have gotten over his issues. Vegeta was fresh and they were performing about the same against SS Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:28 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Draconic wrote:after Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue, that's his maximum output. He can barely keep up with Goku in that state and at this point his untapped potential from lack of fights and proper training is fully realized... and he can't match a Super Saiyan Blue.
It’s more like he can’t outdo Goku in that state. They were pretty much even, with Goku having a slight edge on skill.
Goku was weakened though.

I doubt Broly would be able to keep up with a fresh SSB Goku.
From what? Warming up in SSG? The fight was never in jeopardy for Goku.

Why wasn't Vegeta depicted as doing better? He wouldn't have been weakened at all, but their performance was the same.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Amir » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:15 pm

Goku was not weakened at all. They will never weaken before unleashing their full power. Just like Frieza was hit many times by Broly in his final form, but once he went Golden there was not a
single scratch on him. It's a common rule in DB.

Besides, if Goku really was weakened, he wouldn't have performed as well as SSJB Vegeta against SSJ Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:03 pm

Amir wrote:Goku was not weakened at all. They will never weaken before unleashing their full power. Just like Frieza was hit many times by Broly in his final form, but once he went Golden there was not a
single scratch on him. It's a common rule in DB.

Besides, if Goku really was weakened, he wouldn't have performed as well as SSJB Vegeta against SSJ Broly.
A plot point in the Tournament of Power was the fact that Goku was still able to fight at the same level of strength as before whilst being low on stamina, a sign of his ability to adapt to harsh conditions and keep going past his normal limits.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:38 pm

But that was after Goku released his full power from fighting Jiren and breaking his limits. Amir is right. In Dragonball, a character is not weakened until they outright use all their full power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:43 pm

Bullza wrote:Base and upwards through Super Saiyan 3 Goku should be stronger in Super than in GT.

But how Super Saiyan 4 compares to that is hard to say. Wasn't there some magazine that said he was weaker than Super Saiyan Vegito or something like that?
Yeah. The GT Perfect Files implied that Buu arc SSJ1 Vegito was on par with SSJ4 GT Goku. This would mean that GT Goku at his best isn't even Battle of Gods SSG level.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:05 pm

I just watched Goku vs. Hit 2 and I wanted to know where people place him when compared to the different levels that Goku Black went through. This is just based on raw power alone, not with all his Time shenanigans.

In the Universe 6 saga he was weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Goku. By the time they had the rematch, Goku said Hit at the Tournament was nothing compared to now. I don't know if that's down to power or his new abilities or probably both.

He fights Dispo and this was pretty telling because Dispo gave him a lot of trouble, knocked him down and moved so fast he couldn't see him. Against Golden Frieza however, Dispo couldn't hurt him and was actually slower than Frieza.

So Hit shouldn't be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku or Golden Frieza at all. I'd say he definitely wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black when he had the Scythe...but could Hit could beat the earlier versions of him? When he had the dagger or the sword? Again just from raw power alone?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:31 pm

Bullza wrote: So Hit shouldn't be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku or Golden Frieza at all. I'd say he definitely wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black when he had the Scythe...but could Hit could beat the earlier versions of him? When he had the dagger or the sword? Again just from raw power alone?
Hit’s motto is not raw power, so it’s difficult to assess it. Pretty sure Black would approach Hit carelessly and would face his demise though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:23 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:Hit’s motto is not raw power, so it’s difficult to assess it. Pretty sure Black would approach Hit carelessly and would face his demise though.
It is difficult but you can safely say that U6 Hit would be weaker than the initial Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black by a fair amount.

Whether that would still be true is shaky though. At least in the manga, he did fight Jiren with his raw power for a while and he did just as well as Super Saiyan Blue Goku did. In the anime he was able to hurt Goku by hitting him and was hit quite a few times by Jiren and was still upright.

Though you might be able to say that about Goku Black as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:41 am

Hit in his second bout against Goku is stronger than Black. He was able to equally match Blue Goku's Kamehameha to exhaustion. Which in the past, overpowered and damaged merged Zamas.

Hit was weaker than Blue Goku and Golden Freeza in the TOP. Based on the performance against Dyspo.

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