Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

Is this about if Ultra Instinct Omen or Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku has surpassed the Gods?

Toppo became a God of Destruction and Vegeta was about as strong if not stronger than what he was and both versions of Ultra Instinct Goku were stronger than that.

Thats completed. Completed is a realm beyond gods.

It makes sense if you think about. The whole point was that jiren was a being that a hakaishin couldnt beat, so goku would need power above that.

Now we just need to know what the fuck is jirens state that allowed him to actually physically dominate MUI goku in the beggining half of episode 130. It couldnt just be any normal power up, concidering his aura is an exact replica of UI gokus, but red.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Btw, manga toppo is actually on almost even terms with a CSSB vegeta. I dont know where the “vegeta was stomping toppo” thing came from. Maybe they just saw the pannel of toppo on the ground, amd they didnt see when he got up, and stated that he underestimated vegeta (with a smile too), then he normally continued his fight.


This is actually huge if toppo becoming a hakaishin is part of the original outline. If its true, i would have no problem believing that hakaishin toppo is actually as strong as current gods. I mean, once you become much more powerful than a CSSB, youre basically in the realm of power of the hakaishins.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Vegetto who was compared to Beerus had to go SSB to curbstomp Zamasu who is CSSB level. Since we know SSG is far above 10% of SSB, CSSB level fighters must at least be around 20% of the Gods.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Vegetto who was compared to Beerus had to go SSB to curbstomp Zamasu who is CSSB level. Since we know SSG is far above 10% of SSB, CSSB level fighters must at least be around 20% of the Gods.

Should be lower, concidering how a full power punch from CSSB vegeta did nothing against a supressed beerus. Which is also in line with a severly suppressed jiren playing around TWO CSSB. I would say that a CSSB level being should be about 5-10% power of a hakaishin, but not far below where it makes sense that vegito blue would be on their realm of power.

[Hugo Boss]

Vegetto who was compared to Beerus had to go SSB to curbstomp Zamasu who is CSSB level. Since we know SSG is far above 10% of SSB, CSSB level fighters must at least be around 20% of the Gods.

CSSB is just SSB at 100%, so the Gods of Destruction are just beyond SSB at 100% to an unknown extent.

[Kenneth La Torre]

CSSb is more than just ssb at 100%. Herms made a good point in the last chapter that CSSB was threated in the same regards as kaioken in the anime, when it was revealed that goku was using his “perfected” version of blue. So it is basically a kaioken equavalent. Especially how he can go up against fusion zamasu evenly.

The gods of destruction are immensly above blue tho. Thats something that cant be denied. Look at the power of a fresh born god of destruction in the anime, just imagine the power of one that has been god for eons. I mean, we dont have to imagine, we have jiren to show us.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

CSSb is more than just ssb at 100%. Herms made a good point in the last chapter that CSSB was threated in the same regards as kaioken in the anime, when it was revealed that goku was using his “perfected” version of blue. So it is basically a kaioken equavalent. Especially how he can go up against fusion zamasu evenly.

The gods of destruction are immensly above blue tho. Thats something that cant be denied. Look at the power of a fresh born god of destruction in the anime, just imagine the power of one that has been god for eons. I mean, we dont have to imagine, we have jiren to show us.

Yeah, Hakaishin are basically at a level that SSB multiplied by a factor of perfect Potara Fusion MIGHT be as strong or stronger than them.

Absolutely INSANE, and the fact that ALL Hakaishin fit within this general range is crazy.

There was no way Goku was ever gonna surpass them traditionally with gaps that big; Ultra Instinct was at least some kind of equalizer, being a power that only Angels seem to be able to reliably harness.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Super Saiyan Blue was stated to rival the Gods and Perfect Blue was stated to be strong enough to be a God candidate. So there is no, "The Gods are countless times stronger than Blue". Blue is on the same tier as the Gods but lower on the spectrum.

[ZombieVito]

Manga thoughts:

18 completely destroyed Ribrianne. It's very apparent now that shes just weak. Goku was just fucking with her.

Piccolo was actually fighting evenly with Obuni. I guess Obuni only had the advantage against Gohan solely by his feints.

CSSB Vegeta was having a slight advantage against Toppo and Dyspo was a non factor. It's becoming clear that without his speed he's just base tier just like the anime.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Wonderful that the manga stated why vegeta in CSSB had an edge over toppo, and thats because toppo underestimated vegeta. When toppo is getting up, he says vegeta is just as good as goku, which throws away that nonsense about vegeta being above goku. And then they keep fighting off panel.

So toppo is indeed CSSB level.

Also, dyspo getting swatted aside by a CSSb in NO WAY MEANS that dyspo is base tier. He never was, he was at least ssg level in physical strength. And its bullshit to eliminate the power that allows dyspo to compete with higher level opponents. Thats basically giving him a handi cap. If he is in a certain tier because of his speed, then so be it. No reason to eliminate speed in his equation.

[Bullza]

Not going to read anyone elses comments so I can go in fresh. Now the whole chapter is out let's have a look.

1. Dyspo is effortlessly knocked away unlike Toppo. Dyspo doesn't seem close to Super Saiyan Blue level. Nothing new there as we saw how the Dyspo be Golden Frieza fight played out.

2. Toppo being a match for CSSB Vegeta again suggests to me that

Anime Super Saiyan Blue = Manga Completed Super Saiyan Blue

I'm not seeing any real difference at all.

3. Android 17 packs a much bigger punch than Base Goku and Gohan. No surprise.

4. Piccolo beat Napapa easily. He probably put up a better fight against Super Saiyan Caulifla in the anime.

5. Android 18 appears to be stronger than Ribrianne.

[CJStriker_CBR]

Manga thoughts:

18 completely destroyed Ribrianne. It's very apparent now that shes just weak. Goku was just fucking with her.

Piccolo was actually fighting evenly with Obuni. I guess Obuni only had the advantage against Gohan solely by his feints.

CSSB Vegeta was having a slight advantage against Toppo and Dyspo was a non factor. It's becoming clear that without his speed he's just base tier just like the anime.

Yea No, By the Manga Images that I went over, pre-English dub, Ribrianne was shooting away at 18 Pretty well and only seem to lose her focus when, by what I have heard, was jealous over 18 having such a Handsome Husband in Krillian. Which IMO is a nice change around from the Anime where he was thought as not pretty over his nose which really did not make sense for Ribrianne's character, so I am glad they did a 180 on that in the Manga.

Also cause of this it seemed Ribrianne both lost her focus due her feels over Krillian and also more to when her Friends got hurt as well, tending to lean more to the theories that Ribrianne's power levels is base on her confidence and focus on her beliefs, be nice for Toei to give 411 on that both for the Manga and Anime Versions. Also the Fight did not have a proper conclusion to it since the invisible fighter of U4 knocked them all out.

Also No Super Ribrianne or Giant Super Ribrianne where put into the Manga either like in the anme, so if those forms are cannon in the Manga we did not see a proper high level fight from both ladies, but we need more info from Toei on that.

Will need the English to get a more fully detailed ideal of what went down in their discussions too.

Also Manga and Anime Versions are clearly different with how they are presenting the characters, to conclude in the Anime Goku was just F-ing around just based on Manga 18 vs. Ribrianne is purely silly cause of how different both stories characterizations and show of power are.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Based on the manga, I'm starting to wonder if the anime had toppo on merged zamasu level (not fap arm) as well. I mean, normal fused zamasu was overpowered by ssb kaioken (insert multiplier here) goku. Toppo did make goku crank up the kaioken once he atarted releasing more power. Or maybe just the manga variation of toppo.

I'm still very confident that hakaishin toppo is going to be a thing, as well as SSB Evolution.
If that doesnt happen, then the anime beats the manga in terms of concepts introduced in the TOP. Beating an actual hakaishin is possibly the best showcase of power vegeta has had in super.
Too bad it was overshadowed by jiren and UI goku.

[Marlowe89]

The anime and manga again seem consistent, but it's interesting that Damon managed to knock 17 all the way to the edge of the ring even with 17's full guard up.

[ankokudaishogun]

Blue Kaiohken==Perfect Blue==GoD-in-Training.

Which means Blue 20x Kaiohken==Blue Evolution==relatively weak GoD, as Jiren fightingridiculing 20x was enough to have him compared to the general GoD level.

I guess the main difference between GoD Toppo and an full-GoD isn't much in the power but in the Ultra Instinct training that all of them are supposed to have taken to various degrees.


An issue is comparing correctly Merged Zamasu: Base, Halo, Grotesque e Giant Grotesque forms.

[ZombieVito]

Yea No, By the Manga Images that I went over, pre-English dub, Ribrianne was shooting away at 18 Pretty well and only seem to lose her focus when, by what I have heard, was jealous over 18 having such a Handsome Husband in Krillian. Which IMO is a nice change around from the Anime where he was thought as not pretty over his nose which really did not make sense for Ribrianne's character, so I am glad they did a 180 on that in the Manga.

Also cause of this it seemed Ribrianne both lost her focus due her feels over Krillian and also more to when her Friends got hurt as well, tending to lean more to the theories that Ribrianne's power levels is base on her confidence and focus on her beliefs, be nice for Toei to give 411 on that both for the Manga and Anime Versions. Also the Fight did not have a proper conclusion to it since the invisible fighter of U4 knocked them all out.

Also No Super Ribrianne or Giant Super Ribrianne where put into the Manga either like in the anme, so if those forms are cannon in the Manga we did not see a proper high level fight from both ladies, but we need more info from Toei on that.

Will need the English to get a more fully detailed ideal of what went down in their discussions too.

Also Manga and Anime Versions are clearly different with how they are presenting the characters, to conclude in the Anime Goku was just F-ing around just based on Manga 18 vs. Ribrianne is purely silly cause of how different both stories characterizations and show of power are.

I suggest you don't see the full chapter. You're going to be crushed.

18 literally gets annoyed at her attacks and just uses a shockwave to defeat her. Then she starts counting from 5 for her to jump off.

That's how weak Ribrianne is.

[Sora Saiyan]

I'm still very confident that hakaishin toppo is going to be a thing, as well as SSB Evolution.
If that doesnt happen, then the anime beats the manga in terms of concepts introduced in the TOP. Beating an actual hakaishin is possibly the best showcase of power vegeta has had in super.
Too bad it was overshadowed by jiren and UI goku.

Ya know, I didn’t think SSJBE was gonna be a thing, but after those cards came out with the power ratings I thought that it might actually be a thing in the outline. On the cards he was equal to UIO which seems like an interesting positioning for him, the anime made it appear to be around around SSJBKKs level but if it appears in the manga I have a feeling it’ll be comparable to UIO. Tbh I wouldn’t mind seeing UIO Goku and SSJBE Vegeta using a bit of teamwork, it could be pretty interesting, and I bet it would work well if Vegeta packs the bigger punch out of the two, I guess it would work like two people trying, and partly failing, at making up something akin to MUI.
I always thought it seemed strange that UIO and SSJBE were side by side at the end of Supers last ending animation, but in the actual episodes it made no sense as he was waaay below UIO.
If it does end up being a thing in the manga I guess it’s Toriyamas way of Vegeta attaining insane power, but not getting UI just yet.

[Hugo Boss]

CSSb is more than just ssb at 100%. Herms made a good point in the last chapter that CSSB was threated in the same regards as kaioken in the anime, when it was revealed that goku was using his “perfected” version of blue. So it is basically a kaioken equavalent. Especially how he can go up against fusion zamasu evenly.

It’s not really a kaioken equivalent. Herms only noted the parallel between the anime and the manga when Whis describes that Goku is already using his strongest form when fighting Jiren in the first round. CSSB, as Vegeta describes in chapter 24, is just SSB at full capacity.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

CSSb is more than just ssb at 100%. Herms made a good point in the last chapter that CSSB was threated in the same regards as kaioken in the anime, when it was revealed that goku was using his “perfected” version of blue. So it is basically a kaioken equavalent. Especially how he can go up against fusion zamasu evenly.

It’s not really a kaioken equivalent. Herms only noted the parallel between the anime and the manga when Whis describes that Goku is already using his strongest form when fighting Jiren in the first round. CSSB, as Vegeta describes in chapter 24, is just SSB at full capacity.

The real issue is that we don't know how all the SSB versions compare to one another across mediums.

For example, "regular" SSB in the manga seems to be static and relatively weak, unable to do much compared to the anime's blanket SSB in later story arcs.

[Bullza]

The regular Super Saiyan Blue appears to be a thing of the past. The last time it was used was when Vegeta was fighting Beerus. Then he perfected it half way through and that became the new norm.

Which is why it shouldn't be any different from the regular Super Saiyan Blue from the anime.

Of course in the anime they actually grew stronger over time, from all the training and rage boosts. That doesn't seem to be the case in the manga when they had the regular Super Saiyan Blue which had one level of strength and then they shot up a ton after perfecting it.

So I'd say it's the same, expect the anime had them gradually improve and the manga had them leap up.

It's not 100% clear but it seems like Goku and Frieza are still probably equal in the manga. Which is how it was in the anime.