Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dragon boss z]

I wasn't saying SSJ Goku is god tier, that's why I explicitly mentioned SSJG-absorbed SSJ. But my point was there was other instance where they said he could destroy the universe besides the weird clash and no those aren't chain reactions.

Ya, and I think the writers at Toei at the time thought Goku probably was universe level since they probably thought he was relevant to Beerus' power which I assume Toriyama told them was universe level. However they changed it to that SSG is actually less than 1% of Beerus, which is bad writing in the first place since it completely takes away from the fight with Beerus. I mean if he had to suppress himself to less than 1% of his power he might as well just suppressed himself more to fight ssj3 Goku. Though I SSG being 60% of Beerus doesn't give him much to grow either. I think if they scaled it down to SSG being 10% of Beerus it would of made more sense. It would keep his power relevant to Beerus and give him plenty of room to grow as long as they don't give him kaioken or maybe just gave him KKx2 so they could keep the epicness if the KK but keep the scaling making sense, which is kind of what made Beerus so strong in the first place because now we know he is over 20x SSB.

1)Elder Kai said the universe would straight up become an empty void, so the nuking situation is not the case. https://gfycat.com/GrippingPracticalAztecant

I was refering to the manga version.

2) You can't scale Manga Fused Zamasu's galaxy busting statement to Anime SSJB Vegetto because they're two different continuities. Even if you did, Anime Fused Zamasu was only close to Vegetto because he got corrupted which made him much stronger.

That's what I was saying. In the manga I think fused Zamasu is galaxy level, in the anime I think he is closer to universe level.

3) Having a universe with only 28 mortal-filled planets doesn't mean the universe is small, it would mean there's little to no life in that universe. It would be like saying Russia is smaller than India because Russia has a smaller population. We should assume the U7 is as big as IRL universe because most common things are the same like the Sun, Moon's distance from Earth, Milky Way, billions of galaxies, etc. Also Freeza controlling a good portion of U7 with a small amount of men is perfectly doable considering there's only 28 mortal-filled planets.

Isn't it stated namek, planet Vegeta, and all of the plaents under the galactic patrol's jurisdiction are in the milky way? So it seems the milky way is full of life, so does it just so happen out of all the countless galaxy that one of them happens to have almost all of the life in it? And what about all the 3 other quadrants that the to other kais look after. Each quadrant should have a similar amount of life. Really the 28 planets with life don't make much sense. The most logical thing I can think of is Buu and Beerus blew up a lot of them.

[dragon boss z]

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks briefly clashed with Super Saiyan Rose Black. Likewise, future Zamasu briefly clashed with Super Saiyan Blue Goku. There are a lot of instances in Super where characters with monumental gaps between them can do this for a period of time. We literally have several examples of it in the present tournament. We know that was little more than an outlier because Trunks later required protection from Goku and Vegeta in Episode 61 and was made out to be vastly weaker than both, and the fact that he needed a new form (Super Saiyan Rage) to compete on that level additionally suggests that neither he nor future Zamasu were anywhere nearly that strong beforehand.

This is why dialogue ultimately trumps what is "shown" when it comes to DBS specifically, otherwise the anime would be damn near impossible to parse and generally all over the place. I acknowledge that Super Saiyan Rage is at least close to that level, but that's an anime-only form to begin with.

Ya but Trunks having a new form is enough proof that the manga and anime are different, which is all I'm saying.

You're the one who made unsubstantiated claims of a retcon here, not me. I was just saying that if Goku's strength in that form was retconned, it would have been from the film and not necessarily the show.

Ya that scale was only relevant to the movie, my point was some of the writers when writing the BoG arc may of been thinking of that scale since they may not of decided to retcon it at that point, hence Beerus using 10% on ssj2 Vegeta with no reason to lie about his power there since the fight was already over. Also the manga never contradicts the original scale, but I don't really think it follows it either.

I actually can in this context though. We already have confirmation from Toshio that Toei's writing staff attempts to follow the power-scaling provided in Toriyama's outline as closely as possible; Toyotaro has said something to that effect on his part as well. If both mediums are trying to adhere to the same scale, then the scale is generally going to be the same barring any misinterpretations, anime-only/manga-only transformations and any other outliers that could lead to a discrepancy between the two; however, those would be the exception, not the rule.

In Toriyama's original vision fused Zamasu would of got wrecked by just SSB Goku and Vegeta working together. To me that would say he really isn't even much stronger than golden Frieza in his original draft. And this original draft could of easily fit into the movie's scaling as well. It seems in Toriyama's mind he thinks of SSB being really strong, which is why just one of them could of actually probably beaten fused Zamsu if he wasn't immortal. And the fact that Toyotaro flat out said he brought Vegito back for fan service also makes me question the scaling.

If just one clash between Goku and Beerus was enough to have Elder Kai state that the entire universe was in grave danger, that is explicitly telling you the reader that these characters were fighting close to that level of power. I really don't know how much clearer it could get. There's no reason to believe this isn't the same as in the anime, and taking the universe out in a mere few shots would technically put them on multi-galaxy level at an absolute minimum.

[/quote][/quote]

What it tells me is the universe was in danger from their fight. Lets say the fought for a day straight and blew up a few hundred galaxies in that day. That would most likely kill trillions and destroy a portion of the universe. that is enough damage to say the universe is in grave danger. Like I said I'm pretty sure elder Kai said the universe was in danger from Buu multiple times as well, but he isn't galaxy level, or at least there is no strong evidence he is.

[dragon boss z]

Life isn't spread out entirely evenly even on Earth, so applying your train of logic doesn't work on a cosmic scale.

I'm not saying it is spread out evenly, but having 28 worlds with mortals just makes the universe feel small.

There's no stated rules for how Mortals are spread out across the Universes, and we've already seen that, though definitely not as large as some fictional universes, the Universes in this franchise ARE plenty big, encompassing hundreds of galaxies in BOTH mediums' visual depictions.

Ya I agree there are probably at least hundreds of galaxies. However just our observable universe has over 100 billion, and our observable universe is just a spec of our actual universe, which may be part of an infinite multiverse.

Being able to destroy all of that takes some serious power levels.

I agree with you here. And from what I've been presented with in the show and statements I think a GoD can probably do it. I'm just questioning characters like SSG Goku who it seems any randomly strong opponent can challenge at this point.

[Bullza]

Just to pose the question, does anyone think that piccolo wasn't stronger than ssj Gohan during their training?

Another power level oddity.

Piccolo with weights was weaker than Base Gohan in the Resurrection F saga. Then equal to him in the Universe 6 saga.

Then it would appear he got about hundred times stronger in a year to be a match for his Super Saiyan 2.

But then yeah after that Base Gohan was able to somewhat handle his attack, which I could have just accepted as Piccolo holding back because he wasn't trying to kill him but now we do have Base Gohan holding his own (infact he's doing better than Piccolo), in the Namek fight.

So depending on how it all turns out, maybe Piccolo actually is closer to Base level after all, we'll see.

[Miracles]

Piccolo's statement was talking about Goku's current UI being stronger than his past UI state against Jiren. It was in the context of Kefla drawing out more power from UI Goku.

[lord turbo]

Ya I agree there are probably at least hundreds of galaxies. However just our observable universe has over 100 billion, and our observable universe is just a spec of our actual universe, which may be part of an infinite multiverse.

Our visible universe houses trillions of galaxies, but similar to what you said beyond that our universe could potentially be infinite in size or something more.

I agree with you here. And from what I've been presented with in the show and statements I think a GoD can probably do it. I'm just questioning characters like SSG Goku who it seems any randomly strong opponent can challenge at this point.

Hard to say, I think originally the plan was for SSG Gomu and the like to be universe level in DBS anime/manga, but it seemz like the writets have dialed back down from that since in the following saga of RoF we don't even get the slightest hint of universe level from Golden Freeza vs SSB Goku or Vegeta, same deal with Goku Black arc, you even have Merged Zamazu (depending on the translation) dialed back down to galaxy level).

You would think if they were universe level it would have been mentioned, after all, when Merged Zamasu and SSB Vegetto clashed fists the resulting effect should have threaten if not destroyed the universe, but we got jack. The only legit multi-galaxy feat we get is SSB Vegeta doing essentially a Big Rip on the time chamber dimension twice.

However, it seems like the universe is only in danger if two GoDs clash against each other in battle as mentioned during the baseball episode, finally, you got LSS2 Kefla mentioning it feels like she can blow away an entire universe in one shot due to her nes levels of power. That's an odd statement to make if she's hundreds of time.above SSG Goku from ths BoGs saga who was seemingly universe level, at least according to the narration (but even the narration has been contradictory before so who really knows).

[dragon boss z]

Our visible universe houses trillions of galaxies, but similar to what you said beyond that our universe could potentially be infinite in size or something more.

I just went with the first thing that google said which was "at least 100 billion".

Hard to say, I think originally the plan was for SSG Gomu and the like to be universe level in DBS anime/manga, but it seemz like the writets have dialed back down from that since in the following saga of RoF we don't even get the slightest hint of universe level from Golden Freeza vs SSB Goku or Vegeta, same deal with Goku Black arc, you even have Merged Zamazu (depending on the translation) dialed back down to galaxy level). You would think if they were universe level it would have been mentioned, after all, when Merged Zamasu and SSB Vegetto clashed fists the resulting effect should have threaten if not destroyed the universe, but we got jack.

this is pretty much what I think as well. I think this stems from them wanting Beerus to be universe level but not all of these other characters.

The only legit multi-galaxy feat we get is SSB Vegeta doing essentially a Big Rip on the time chamber dimension twice.

I've been seeing people say that the ROSAT is only as big as Earth. Where are you getting that being a multi-galaxy level feat?

However, it seems like the universe is only in danger if two GoDs clash against each other in battle as mentioned during the baseball episode, finally, you got LSS2 Kefla mentioning it feels like she can blow away an entire universe in one shot due to her nes levels of power. That's an odd statement to make if she's hundreds of time.above SSG Goku from ths BoGs saga who was seemingly universe level, at least according to the narration (but even the narration has been contradictory before so who really knows).

Yep, I agree with everything you said here.

[Sora Saiyan]

I believe that Godku is multi galaxy level in the manga. Shockwaves spreading throughout a Universe and reaching a place outside of it (Kaioshin realm), where the shockwaves are then mentioned to be putting the Universe in jeopardy implies that it wouldn’t take all that long to destroy the universe.
We know that the Universe 7 is decent in size, or the same size as ours, because of Jacos line in the manga stating the it is made up of countless galaxies like the Milky Way. So plain old Galaxy level would take way to long to destroy the Universe.

Anyway, I think the anime is a great reference to use for the manga at that point because it’s veey clear what the intention is in both, but the manga is just a total rush job at that stage, and the anime goes into more depth with the bits it shows off.

Well we don't really know how much "countless" is. Also we don't know if that came from Toriyama. What we do know is that in both the manga and anime it was stated there are only 28 planets in the entire universe that have mortals (which is BS imo). And if this is true the universe really can't be that big since there are multiple planets that have mortals just in the milky way, so that means if each galaxy has a couple planets with mortals there really shouldn't be that many galaxies. But like I said the 28 planets with mortals is really stupid since I'm pretty sure there are more types of aliens than that we've seen in both Frieza's army and the galactic patrol.

It doesn’t matter if it came from Toriyama since we’re talking about the manga, and not what is just approved by Toriyama, but a line to that effect is also in the anime I believe, so it probably is from Toriyama.

Mortal life clearly isn’t spread out equally, there are countless galaxies like our Milky Way in the dragon world yet most of those “countless” galaxies don’t have life. Just becsause you don’t think it makes sense doesn’t mean it’s wrong, clearly those two lines can work together very easily, it would just mean in some galaxies there is no life, either because of Beerus doing his “job” and Buu destroying hundreds of planets, plus stuff naturally ending life on planets. Let’s not forget about Champa destroying countless planets on his hunt for the Super DBs, oh and Goku and Beerus shockwaves getting stronger the further out they got (anime). All this partnered with our super sucky Kaioshin is a very bad combination.

Btw Planet Namek, Frieza, and Vegeta are shown to be in different quadrants than earth. They are on an opposite side to earth on a DB cosmos map

[TheDipDap1234]

Surprised no one's talking about the NEP here.

Rozie was doing pretty good against 17. Same with 18 against Ribrianne. Ribrianne also reverts back into her normal form and tries to transform into something new that is described being "terrifying" by Goku.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Surprised no one's talking about the NEP here.

Rozie was doing pretty good against 17. Same with 18 against Ribrianne. Ribrianne also reverts back into her normal form and tries to transform into something new that is described being "terrifying" by Goku.

Most likely a pure fight, and not a power-level measuring stick.

[Marlowe89]

In Toriyama's original vision fused Zamasu would of got wrecked by just SSB Goku and Vegeta working together

That's not particularly untrue in the manga if we're taking the 100% Blue forms into account. It's only untrue in the anime because Fused Zamasu has an exclusive, much stronger mutated form in that medium.

that is enough damage to say the universe is in grave danger.

Nah, that bit definitely wouldn't have been present in the dialogue if SSG Goku was only capable of destroying the universe after a long period of time. Again, the entire point authorially was to demonstrate this new realm of power Goku obtained -- I seriously don't know how much more obvious that could have been.

I've already made my point in regards to everything else, so I'm going to let it be. If you still disagree in spite of everything I've brought up then I honestly don't see any point in continuing this discussion. Agree to disagree I suppose.

[JazzMazz]

Piccolo's statement was talking about Goku's current UI being stronger than his past UI state against Jiren. It was in the context of Kefla drawing out more power from UI Goku.

Rewatching the episode, the line is actually pretty ambiguous.

It could refer to UI's previous power, though I don't think so based on Jiren's reaction, or he could be referring to how Kelfa's gotten stronger than Goku's full power Kaio-kenX20, which makes more sense in my eyes since that was his previous level.

Surprised no one's talking about the NEP here.

Rozie was doing pretty good against 17. Same with 18 against Ribrianne. Ribrianne also reverts back into her normal form and tries to transform into something new that is described being "terrifying" by Goku.

From the NEP it looks like Rozies going to get the jump on 17, so its not all that surprising, and the description given in the NEP is just a classic example of characters exaggerating something in the NEP to make the audience excited for next week.

[Miracles]

Piccolo's statement was talking about Goku's current UI being stronger than his past UI state against Jiren. It was in the context of Kefla drawing out more power from UI Goku.

Rewatching the episode, the line is actually pretty ambiguous.

It could refer to UI's previous power, though I don't think so based on Jiren's reaction, or he could be referring to how Kelfa's gotten stronger than Goku's full power Kaio-kenX20, which makes more sense in my eyes since that was his previous level..

Yeah but Dyspo and Toppo confirmed the UI Goku against Kefla was stronger and more polished than the current UI Goku.

[JazzMazz]

Piccolo's statement was talking about Goku's current UI being stronger than his past UI state against Jiren. It was in the context of Kefla drawing out more power from UI Goku.

Rewatching the episode, the line is actually pretty ambiguous.

It could refer to UI's previous power, though I don't think so based on Jiren's reaction, or he could be referring to how Kelfa's gotten stronger than Goku's full power Kaio-kenX20, which makes more sense in my eyes since that was his previous level..

Dyspo and Toppo confirmed this UI Goku was stronger and more polished than the current UI Goku.

That doesn't confirm or deny anything.

All we knew is that Kefla was stronger than Goku's best at some point.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Rewatching the episode, the line is actually pretty ambiguous.

It could refer to UI's previous power, though I don't think so based on Jiren's reaction, or he could be referring to how Kelfa's gotten stronger than Goku's full power Kaio-kenX20, which makes more sense in my eyes since that was his previous level..

Dyspo and Toppo confirmed this UI Goku was stronger and more polished than the current UI Goku.

That doesn't confirm or deny anything.

All we knew is that Kefla was stronger than Goku's best at some point.

It was not confirmed that Kefla was stronger than Goku's best.

According to Herms, Piccolo claims that Kefla was stronger than Goku a ''little time ago''. It is still ambiguous, but there is no way Piccolo could have referred to the fight against Jiren, because although the two fights happened a little time ago, the fight of Goku SSB and Kefla was the last one that Goku had and the last one in which he showed his power

If the battle with Jiren was earlier than this, then it would have to be specified. '' Not long ago '' suggests that it was the last fight in which Goku showed his power

[TheMikado]

I’m laughing at the astronomy comparisons because when I first brought up the absurdity Back in BoGs I was told that Toriyamas universe doesn’t work like ours and that universes were likely closer to galaxies. Which I accepted as it made sense. Now especially with the 28 mortal planets it really makes a ton more sense for Toriyamas scale of universes to be much smaller but now we seem to be reversing course in order to make Keflas feat look bigger while also having everyone who has fought Goku since being SSG be universe busters

[dragon boss z]

Mortal life clearly isn’t spread out equally, there are countless galaxies like our Milky Way in the dragon world yet most of those “countless” galaxies don’t have life.

I'm not saying it is spread evenly. I'm just saying chances are if the universe is the size of our own there would probably be more than 28 planets with life.

Just becsause you don’t think it makes sense doesn’t mean it’s wrong,

I didn't say it was wrong, I said it was stupid. Pretty sure there was a Frieza planet 70 something which completely goes against 28 planets with mortals.

clearly those two lines can work together very easily, it would just mean in some galaxies there is no life, either because of Beerus doing his “job” and Buu destroying hundreds of planets, plus stuff naturally ending life on planets. Let’s not forget about Champa destroying countless planets on his hunt for the Super DBs, oh and Goku and Beerus shockwaves getting stronger the further out they got (anime).

Already mentioned this.

All this partnered with our super sucky Kaioshin is a very bad combination.

No doubt the supreme kai sucks and knows practically nothing.

Btw Planet Namek, Frieza, and Vegeta are shown to be in different quadrants than earth. They are on an opposite side to earth on a DB cosmos map

The dragon ball map isn't drawn to scale. And the saiyans seem to be in the same galaxy considering they are under the jurisdiction of the galactic patrol. Also pretty sure King Kai said namek was in his quadrant.

That's not particularly untrue in the manga if we're taking the 100% Blue forms into account. It's only untrue in the anime because Fused Zamasu has an exclusive, much stronger mutated form in that medium.

True, which is why I think the manga is different. I assume true golden Frieza will be equal with 100% blue in the manga and I think they aren't really that far behind the weaker GoD.

Nah, that bit definitely wouldn't have been present in the dialogue if SSG Goku was only capable of destroying the universe after a long period of time. Again, the entire point authorially was to demonstrate this new realm of power Goku obtained -- I seriously don't know how much more obvious that could have been.

What is your definition of a long period of time. If you think destroying the universe in about a day or over the course of a long fight is a long period of time I don't really know what to say. Imo that is EXTREMELY quick to destroy a universe. Buu was going to destroy the universe over a long period of time, as in years, possible hundreds of years. I would agree with your argument if I was saying it would take months or years to destroy the universe but I said a long fight that might last a day. that is not a long period of time at all.

I've already made my point in regards to everything else, so I'm going to let it be. If you still disagree in spite of everything I've brought up then I honestly don't see any point in continuing this discussion. Agree to disagree I suppose.

The thing is you are just going off statements that contradict other things. For example if we used your logic in dragon ball King Piccolo would be above moon level, yet he is clearly on city+ level max and is even stated to be only as strong as a nuke in the guide books. Another example is going of Vegeta's planet busting statement all of Frieza's soldiers should of been planet level, yet Frieza is the only character portrayed as planet level in the entire namek arc. Dragon ball is never been super consistent and till it happens on screen or a 100% fact statement I will always have doubt. Frieza is the first confirmed true planet level character. Cell has enough energy to destroy the solar system, but there is still the question if he can do it in one attack due to the massive amounts of empty space between the planets (if they were all in one place he could definitely do it). And now with the universe busting thing it was with weird shockwaves, statements of Beerus not even being able to survive it, and it never being mentioned again after that fight. Also Toshi one of the writers of Super saying SSB Goku wasn't universe level yet when asked. And Goku and Vegeta talking about the Zeno had to destroy a whole universe.

I know there is evidence on both sides, but until there is a 100% statement or feat, I can't in good conscience say someone is universe level. And a good debater will always say it might not be true until it is 100% proven.

[Miracles]

Rewatching the episode, the line is actually pretty ambiguous.

It could refer to UI's previous power, though I don't think so based on Jiren's reaction, or he could be referring to how Kelfa's gotten stronger than Goku's full power Kaio-kenX20, which makes more sense in my eyes since that was his previous level..

Dyspo and Toppo confirmed this UI Goku was stronger and more polished than the current UI Goku.

That doesn't confirm or deny anything.

All we knew is that Kefla was stronger than Goku's best at some point.

Piccolo was talking about UI Goku and Kefla not about KKBlue Goku...

Piccolo: "what are they [UI Goku and Kefla]. If one powers up [Ui Goku], the other [Kefla] is incited to increasing their power too."
Gohan: "You mean the change in dad is drawing out Kefla's power more."
Piccolo: "Yeah. Kefla is definitely growing. Her power is unbelievable."

Piccolo: "This power...It might even surpass Son's earlier level!"
Gohan: "No way."
Piccolo: "But if Kefla's power up could FURTHER draw out [UI Goku] Son's power..."

If Piccolo was talking about Kefla being just stronger than KKBlue Goku, there wouldn't be any need for Piccolo to state UI Goku needing his power to be drawn out even more.

[JazzMazz]

The thing is you are just going off statements that contradict other things. For example if we used your logic in dragon ball King Piccolo would be above moon level, yet he is clearly on city+ level max and is even stated to be only as strong as a nuke in the guide books. Another example is going of Vegeta's planet busting statement all of Frieza's soldiers should of been planet level, yet Frieza is the only character portrayed as planet level in the entire namek arc. Dragon ball is never been super consistent and till it happens on screen or a 100% fact statement I will always have doubt. Frieza is the first confirmed true planet level character. Cell has enough energy to destroy the solar system, but there is still the question if he can do it in one attack due to the massive amounts of empty space between the planets (if they were all in one place he could definitely do it). And now with the universe busting thing it was with weird shockwaves, statements of Beerus not even being able to survive it, and it never being mentioned again after that fight. Also Toshi one of the writers of Super saying SSB Goku wasn't universe level yet when asked. And Goku and Vegeta talking about the Zeno had to destroy a whole universe.

I know there is evidence on both sides, but until there is a 100% statement or feat, I can't in good conscience say someone is universe level. And a good debater will always say it might not be true until it is 100% proven.

I think only really the high ranking Freeza soldiers like Vegeta, Cui, Zarbon, Dodoria and the Ginyu force could all destroy a planet if they so desired(even though they would try to avoid it, since it would be bad for business), the difference between Freeza and all his other henchmen which can destroy planets, is that he could do it, with the energy produced from one finger, and do so effortlessly.

Piccolo was talking about UI Goku and Kefla not about KKBlue Goku...

Piccolo: "what are they [UI Goku and Kefla]. If one powers up [Ui Goku], the other [Kefla] is incited to increasing their power too."
Gohan: "You mean the change in dad is drawing out Kefla's power more."
Piccolo: "Yeah. Kefla is definitely growing. Her power is unbelievable."

Piccolo: "This power...It might even surpass Son's earlier level!"
Gohan: "No way."
Piccolo: "But if Kefla's power up could FURTHER draw out [UI Goku's power] Son's power..."

If Piccolo was talking about Kefla being just stronger than KKBlue Goku, there wouldn't be any need for Piccolo to state UI Goku needing his power to be drawn out even more.

Again, its pretty vague, since both fighters, as you mentioned, were still powering up and Goku still wasn't at his fullest ebb, thats why he wasn't able to maintain UI for that long.

[Kataphrut]

There are certain lines in episode 116 that made me think they're deliberately going out of their way to annoy people now. Kefla saying she could destroy the Universe is a good example. Others like Piccolo's comments or Whis comparing it to the Spirit Bomb are more ambiguous as to how seriously they're supposed to be taken.