Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Xeztin » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:51 pm

Which one of them is supposed to be a tuffle? Pretty sure I saw some spoiler about Tuffles months ago..?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:07 pm

Xeztin wrote:Which one of them is supposed to be a tuffle? Pretty sure I saw some spoiler about Tuffles months ago..?


The speed racer looking fella on Universe 2's team, the guy with the second greatest mustache this side of Toppo.

In fact, team Universe 2 seems to be the one to use obscure species from Universe 7, the Yardrats and the Tuffles.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Bullza » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:48 pm

Do we still say that Master Roshi even in buff form is the weakest human? Would Krillin and Tien be more powerful than him still or not anymore?

Also watching the subs, it really does make it seem even more apparent that Magetta is above Frost. I don't know if Magetta is supposed to be anymore powerful than last time but even if Frost has improved it would be at best somewhere below him still.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:01 pm

Bullza wrote:Do we still say that Master Roshi even in buff form is the weakest human? Would Krillin and Tien be more powerful than him still or not anymore?

Also watching the subs, it really does make it seem even more apparent that Magetta is above Frost. I don't know if Magetta is supposed to be anymore powerful than last time but even if Frost has improved it would be at best somewhere below him still.


It's a fact that Vegeta has only gotten stronger since first facing Magetta in their last tournament match, and Magetta was easily able to handle what SS Vegeta could throw at him.

That still seems to be the case, since Frost only gets into the usual "exchange of blows" kind of scrap with SS Vegeta rather than the power matches that Magetta provides.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Hugo Boss » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:55 pm

Bullza wrote:What if there were two Bases and the second Base, Saiyan Beyond God just wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan God but was still stronger than the regular Super Saiyan forms?

Too farfetched?

Not really. I think this is what they learn from Whis' training. Using ki control, they can raise their power to some level below Super Saiyan God in their normal forms. With Super Saiyan, they can do the same thing and when they surpass Super Saiyan God, they become Blue.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Bulma's Foot Masseur » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:28 am

Bullza wrote:What if there were two Bases and the second Base, Saiyan Beyond God just wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan God but was still stronger than the regular Super Saiyan forms?

Too farfetched?


If you believe Base can draw upon God ki then there's no reason to assume that SSJ1/SSJ2 can't draw upon it as well, especially since Super Saiyan Blue is clearly something more than just "Super Saiyan + x amount of God ki" now that the series has clarified the stamina drain.

Goku and Vegeta use their SSJ1 and SSJ2 forms far too often for them to somehow be divorced from all that. It's not like we haven't already seen a God ki-enhanced regular Super Saiyan, either.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby LowRyder2005 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:12 am

Bullza wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Bullza wrote:What if there were two Bases and the second Base, Saiyan Beyond God just wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan God but was still stronger than the regular Super Saiyan forms?

Too farfetched?

Unless you want to assume Vegeta and Goku got an ultimate form out of nowhere, then the second base can't exist because it's supposed to be Super Saiyan God.


Well it wouldn't be Ultimate form like Gohan's it would just be a form that's power comes from Super Saiyan God but is not specifically as strong as that.

Like how the Resurrection F manga showed the implication that there was a Base Goku with Super Saiyan God power.

Also the Dragon Ball Heroes game has a Goku who can transform into Super Saiyan, Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue etc and the Saiyan Beyond God card is inbetween Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God in strength.

If you tried to fit everything together without any retcon then it could be a possibility.


I'll go countercurrent and say that, instead, it's what would really make the most sense from an in-universe perspective to me; but the hypothesis goes hand in hand with the retcon as well -- which would be the most salient reason you don't see base Goku performing at levels above Super Saiyans and Piccolo anymore.

"Through training with Whis they had momentarily achieved the use of a state similar to an Ultimate form, but for some reason similar to why we don't see the Pseudo-Super Saiyan form Goku used against the Gyniu Squad in the Pikkon arc, Goku doesn't use it anymore or maybe dropped it altogether".
Maybe he simply re-gained the use of God along the way, and in any other instance he needed this "Beyond God" form he would just jump to Blue, which is not that far above it. After all, since Goku "sandbags" all the time in Super, he wouldn't be really acting differently or out of character and the form wouldn't reappear for similar reasons as to why Super Saiyan 3 didn't. Finally, we already have Gohan who'd transform into a form visually identical to his base above Super Saiyan 1/2/3 by manipulating his ki; there's not really much issue if not for the matter of authorial intent, which however is an out-of-universe thing. It's worth of mention though that the Beyond God form in ROF had some defining characteristics, the milky-golden aura and some lighting effect, which made it appear rather similar to the Ultimate form [Heroes, which treats it as a transformation, kept it: viewtopic.php?t=29918#p908453].

There are other technically viable theories to address this in-universe, but I'm rather convinced they all belie the suspension of disbelief much more in terms of characters' gains and/or feats and/or characters' behavior.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Marlowe89 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:37 am

Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:If you believe Base can draw upon God ki then there's no reason to assume that SSJ1/SSJ2 can't draw upon it as well, especially since Super Saiyan Blue is clearly something more than just "Super Saiyan + x amount of God ki" now that the series has clarified the stamina drain.


I don't see how Blue having a stamina drain prevents it from being what it was clearly stated to be back in RoF, e.g. the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. You would already be assuming a kind of retcon otherwise, since there's plenty of reason to assume that Blue IS Super Saiyan drawing upon God ki since that was the clarified definition.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Animelover5487 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:57 am

I have a vs battle question: Frost vs #18? Who do you guys think would win?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:36 am

Animelover5487 wrote:I have a vs battle question: Frost vs #18? Who do you guys think would win?


Given how Frost is apparently still above Piccolo according to Toshio, and the fact that I can personally see the intent behind the writing placing him as such even now, pretty badly given that Frost is an expert at diversion and underhanded tactics. He's stronger AND more cunning.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Animelover5487 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:48 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Animelover5487 wrote:I have a vs battle question: Frost vs #18? Who do you guys think would win?


Given how Frost is apparently still above Piccolo according to Toshio, and the fact that I can personally see the intent behind the writing placing him as such even now, pretty badly given that Frost is an expert at diversion and underhanded tactics. He's stronger AND more cunning.


18 is stronger than Piccolo too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby dragon boss z » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:13 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Animelover5487 wrote:I have a vs battle question: Frost vs #18? Who do you guys think would win?


Given how Frost is apparently still above Piccolo according to Toshio, and the fact that I can personally see the intent behind the writing placing him as such even now, pretty badly given that Frost is an expert at diversion and underhanded tactics. He's stronger AND more cunning.


Toshio said that was his opinion. Frost even got pushed back a bit by Roshi, Super just doesn't care when it comes to power scaling, lol.

Animelover5487 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Animelover5487 wrote:I have a vs battle question: Frost vs #18? Who do you guys think would win?


Given how Frost is apparently still above Piccolo according to Toshio, and the fact that I can personally see the intent behind the writing placing him as such even now, pretty badly given that Frost is an expert at diversion and underhanded tactics. He's stronger AND more cunning.


18 is stronger than Piccolo too.


Since when? 18 probably isn't much stronger than she was in the androids arc, and Piccolo beat ssj2 Gohan and trained with mystic Gohan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby namekiansaiyan » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:53 pm

Animelover5487 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Animelover5487 wrote:I have a vs battle question: Frost vs #18? Who do you guys think would win?


Given how Frost is apparently still above Piccolo according to Toshio, and the fact that I can personally see the intent behind the writing placing him as such even now, pretty badly given that Frost is an expert at diversion and underhanded tactics. He's stronger AND more cunning.


18 is stronger than Piccolo too.


If you believe that then you are watching a different show.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Animelover5487 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:14 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Animelover5487 wrote:I have a vs battle question: Frost vs #18? Who do you guys think would win?


Given how Frost is apparently still above Piccolo according to Toshio, and the fact that I can personally see the intent behind the writing placing him as such even now, pretty badly given that Frost is an expert at diversion and underhanded tactics. He's stronger AND more cunning.


Toshio said that was his opinion. Frost even got pushed back a bit by Roshi, Super just doesn't care when it comes to power scaling, lol.

Animelover5487 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Given how Frost is apparently still above Piccolo according to Toshio, and the fact that I can personally see the intent behind the writing placing him as such even now, pretty badly given that Frost is an expert at diversion and underhanded tactics. He's stronger AND more cunning.


18 is stronger than Piccolo too.


Since when? 18 probably isn't much stronger than she was in the androids arc, and Piccolo beat ssj2 Gohan and trained with mystic Gohan.


18 was shown throughout the tournament to not be complete trash compared to her brother, who's apparently a scary enemy for Goku. Also, she outperformed Base Goku against the Pride Troppers while Piccolo lost both his arms against those sniper fodders who Base Goku and Vegeta had no trouble with after Ten figured out the secret behind their trick.

Piccolo beat a Rusty SS2 Gohan and him training with Ultimate Gohan doesn't mean much considering Base Saiyans as early as the Copy Vegeta arc were already on that level judging by how easily Base Vegeta defeated SS3 Gotenks and the Saiyans have become considerably stronger since then.

18 likely got much stronger training with Kuririn. If her twin brother's gains are anything to go by, she likely has great potential too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby apex_pretador » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:31 pm

Animelover5487 wrote:I have a vs battle question: Frost vs #18? Who do you guys think would win?

Frost > Weakened Frost > Piccolo > #18

The difference is clear

dragon boss z wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Animelover5487 wrote:I have a vs battle question: Frost vs #18? Who do you guys think would win?


Given how Frost is apparently still above Piccolo according to Toshio, and the fact that I can personally see the intent behind the writing placing him as such even now, pretty badly given that Frost is an expert at diversion and underhanded tactics. He's stronger AND more cunning.


Toshio said that was his opinion. Frost even got pushed back a bit by Roshi, Super just doesn't care when it comes to power scaling, lol.


Even though frost explicitly mentions that it's incredibly hard for him to pull his punches so much that he doesn't accidentally kill Roshi?
Frost was able to trade blows with Super Saiyan Vegeta when he had help from Magetta.

Are you telling me that a nearly dying Roshi is somehow comparable to super-freaking-saiyan Vegeta?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Animelover5487 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:35 pm

apex_pretador wrote:
Animelover5487 wrote:I have a vs battle question: Frost vs #18? Who do you guys think would win?

Frost > Weakened Frost > Piccolo > #18

The difference is clear

dragon boss z wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Given how Frost is apparently still above Piccolo according to Toshio, and the fact that I can personally see the intent behind the writing placing him as such even now, pretty badly given that Frost is an expert at diversion and underhanded tactics. He's stronger AND more cunning.


Toshio said that was his opinion. Frost even got pushed back a bit by Roshi, Super just doesn't care when it comes to power scaling, lol.


Even though frost explicitly mentions that it's incredibly hard for him to pull his punches so much that he doesn't accidentally kill Roshi?
Frost was able to trade blows with Super Saiyan Vegeta when he had help from Magetta.

Are you telling me that a nearly dying Roshi is somehow comparable to super-freaking-saiyan Vegeta?


That isn't a comparison seeing as 18 is stronger than Base Goku. Base Goku is at least on the same tier as Ultimate Gohan whom Piccolo was inferior to.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby apex_pretador » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:41 pm

Animelover5487 wrote:[
That isn't a comparison seeing as 18 is stronger than Base Goku. Base Goku is at least on the same tier as Ultimate Gohan whom Piccolo was inferior to.

18 isn't stronger than base Goku.

inb4 she lifted that weight guy who didn't increase his weight when #18 had lifted him up otherwise #18 would have sank into the ground. He only increased his weight when #18 threw him with great speed, so as to slow down and stop his rolling. This actually led him to slow down and eventually stop, but the ground couldn't handle that weight increase and therefore he fell down.

EDIT: Are you telling me that on Kami's tower, #18 could have beaten super buu all along?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby TheDipDap1234 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:36 pm

If Frost is so much stronger than 18 why didn't he fight with her? Why did he run away from her?

Off topic but I found it hilarious how both Vegeta and 18 called him a bastard.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby apex_pretador » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:46 pm

TheDipDap1234 wrote:If Frost is so much stronger than 18 why didn't he fight with her? Why did he run away from her?

Off topic but I found it hilarious how both Vegeta and 18 called him a bastard.

Because that's his character exactly.

He only picks up on absolute weaklinks, and even when they have no chance to defend themselves.

He didn't fight Piccolo fairly either, despite being way stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby LowRyder2005 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:47 pm

apex_pretador wrote:
Animelover5487 wrote:[
That isn't a comparison seeing as 18 is stronger than Base Goku. Base Goku is at least on the same tier as Ultimate Gohan whom Piccolo was inferior to.

18 isn't stronger than base Goku.

inb4 she lifted that weight guy who didn't increase his weight when #18 had lifted him up otherwise #18 would have sank into the ground. He only increased his weight when #18 threw him with great speed, so as to slow down and stop his rolling. This actually led him to slow down and eventually stop, but the ground couldn't handle that weight increase and therefore he fell down.

EDIT: Are you telling me that on Kami's tower, #18 could have beaten super buu all along?


I'm obviously not on board with #18 being above Piccolo as I doubt it's the case, but this is by far one of the shabbiest, "oh-so-convenient" claims (and I stress claims, since apparently a lot of people in this thread like to inflate their own interpretations and present them as if they were supposed facts in the show -- which I find kind of irritating, to be honest) I've read in the last 50 pages or so.

In fact, I'd go as far as saying that the exchange of both of you looks a "pot meet kettle" in terms of preconceived notions: probably, there's overall much more evidence to think that Piccolo is above base Goku; #18 - if not outright stronger, since there's quite the decent chance the scene was written with that intent in mind - shouldn't however be that far off base Goku herself even if we want to play devil's advocate with her lifting feat. Her blasts hurt Tupper and Tupper is strong enough to bind base Goku even before he raises his weight.
Last edited by LowRyder2005 on Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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