Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by AnimeNation101 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:59 pm

cuartas wrote:
kn83 wrote:
MrTennek wrote:So many people afraid of change... :roll:
This ain't about change, its about quality. The art design is too simple and generic.
True, if the face of the initial propotional art screamed one piece to me, this trailer just confirmed it, dragon ball it's gonna lose it's identity to become "just like" another recent anime out there, kinda fits with the age of Shintani, he's probably completely influenced by current trends
I think you forgot what series you were talking about. This is Dragon Ball. It won’t lose its identity to anything.

It’s simply updating to match modern day animation. This is the most beneficial thing for DB. It’s not good to dwell in the past. And the style not only allows for easier to more fluid work from animators, it also attracts more popular, extremely talented animators to the show which results in an overall quality jump for Dragon Ball instead of it receiving insults from animators due to its non-versatile character design.

And remember, this style isn’t taking away from people like Shida and Takahashi. It’s broadening the spectrum for all styles to be used. Since its so simple, its easier for different people to impose different styles onto it whether its smears or intense shading. Ehh, you’ll probably get used to it anyway.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by HybridSaiyan » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:44 pm

Goku...doesn't look like Goku at all In this movie. His facial features are weird and screams One Piece. Too bad, I was hoping for the movies 1-5 Goku model to return. Hype completely lost, but If that Saiyan appears to be Broly, then I'll give It a whirl.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by paulo89988 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:43 pm

I think Shintani's style resembles Shimanuki's, but a lot softer

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Asura » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:52 pm

I think this is official promo art that was released for the movie?

Image

Goku looks so much better here than in the trailer, if this is what we're getting then I'm all on board, but the trailer really didn't look anything like this so I'm sorta confused...

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by AnimeNation101 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:58 pm

Asura wrote:I think this is official promo art that was released for the movie?

Image

Goku looks so much better here than in the trailer, if this is what we're getting then I'm all on board, but the trailer really didn't look anything like this so I'm sorta confused...
And boy am i glad it didn’t. We have people asking for Cell Saga/Buu saga styles, then we have people asking for Saiyan saga/Namek saga styles like you, then we have people who wanted the style exactly like how the key visual promised.

What everyone should take away is that they are trying to modernize the style of DB while making it simpler to animate. They aren’t trying to use Namek or Buu saga art. They’re going for there own NEW thing. I honestly dont know what they situation was with that SSJ Goku art because when i saw it, it looked too different from the key visual to be another key visual for the movie. The muscles were a dead giveaway. Why they used it to advertise th movie? IDK but I’m glad it was kind of a fluke.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by AnimeNation101 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:02 pm

HybridSaiyan wrote:Goku...doesn't look like Goku at all In this movie. His facial features are weird and screams One Piece. Too bad, I was hoping for the movies 1-5 Goku model to return. Hype completely lost, but If that Saiyan appears to be Broly, then I'll give It a whirl.
-_- really?

Look, just lose all your hype then because the creator of Broly and his movies is no where near this movie project and since this is canon and Toriyama did not create Broly and Broly doesn’t exist in the world of DBS, he won’t show up.

Also, you shouldn’t lose hype because of a style change. Did you lose hype during the style change from the Saiyan Saga to Namek saga to Cell saga to Buu saga to Super (beginning) to Super (T.o.P)?
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by paulo89988 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:30 pm

oh now that I think about it, I really hope they don't go too crazy and turn it into Naruto vs Pain, that was awful, but it doesn't look like that's going to be the case, judging from the teaser

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:38 pm

Asura wrote:I think this is official promo art that was released for the movie?
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Goku looks so much better here than in the trailer, if this is what we're getting then I'm all on board, but the trailer really didn't look anything like this so I'm sorta confused...
Not all artist can replicate 100% the style of another.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Asura » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:49 pm

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:Not all artist can replicate 100% the style of another.
Yes, but this looks quite different than what was in the trailer. The shading in particular is much, much different.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by GTx10 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:55 pm

I've noticed the term "easier to animate" being throw around a lot lately. I fail to see how the Yamamuro/Takahashi style is not easy to animate. I don't think that concept even makes sense considering that we have seen highly detailed DB related material in that style move perfectly fine. All of this screams "change for change's sake" under the guise of "this will update DB's quality and reputation."
Which is another thing too... Who are these industry folks who "mock" / "dislike" DB's current style of animation? Does anybody have any links to these comments? Are these commentator's worth a damn to begin with that their opinion would/should matter? And if they are that important why don't they throw their hat in the DB ring and shut us all up then?
Moral of the story, I have still yet to receive any "good examples" of why DB as a whole should look like these modern anime shows or why it should adhere to anything around it? Because isn't it making a butt load of money as it currently is?. Come on people give me your best arguments and shut my mouth because none of you have convinced me that this new style is the "best path for Dragon Ball as a whole."

Battle of Gods (movie version) Looked and moved smoothly and beautifully.
F (movie version) looked solid.

Cooler's Revenge is a damn pretty movie and the character's move as naturally as their fictional world dictates. (Piccolo vs Sauza for example)

TLSS Broly was good looking from beginning to end and the character's were zooming about freely without limitation.

Bojack Unbound was a light show of colors and movement.

Return of Broly and Bio-Broly are stunning films that never feel clunky or not unique.

Fusion Reborn is a candy box full of interesting movements and visuals. Ones that even Toyotaro uses in his Manga!

WoTDragon is pretty to look at.

Shall I go on people?
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by MrTennek » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:02 pm

People have developed some manner of Stockholm syndrome with Yamamuro's dreadful art style. :wtf:

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by GTx10 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:07 pm

MrTennek wrote:People have developed some manner of Stockholm syndrome with Yamamuro's dreadful art style. :wtf:
Yamamuro's style isn't bad. It defined DB for how many years? A lot of years. Comparing his style to Stockholm syndrome is foolishness. Because if DB went back to looking like Dragon Ball (original) style then I would be like "woohoo! I'm on board for this!" If Meada came back I'd be happy too.
I'm not stuck on Yamamuro but I will not call his style "dreadful." He can draw better than both us and we both know it so we haven't a leg to stand on brah.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:52 pm

Name three or five pieces of animation from the last two films that had character acting as solid as this new teaser, please.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by AnimeNation101 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:10 am

GTx10 wrote:I've noticed the term "easier to animate" being throw around a lot lately. I fail to see how the Yamamuro/Takahashi style is not easy to animate. I don't think that concept even makes sense considering that we have seen highly detailed DB related material in that style move perfectly fine. All of this screams "change for change's sake" under the guise of "this will update DB's quality and reputation."
Which is another thing too... Who are these industry folks who "mock" / "dislike" DB's current style of animation? Does anybody have any links to these comments? Are these commentator's worth a damn to begin with that their opinion would/should matter? And if they are that important why don't they throw their hat in the DB ring and shut us all up then?
Moral of the story, I have still yet to receive any "good examples" of why DB as a whole should look like these modern anime shows or why it should adhere to anything around it? Because isn't it making a butt load of money as it currently is?. Come on people give me your best arguments and shut my mouth because none of you have convinced me that this new style is the "best path for Dragon Ball as a whole."

Battle of Gods (movie version) Looked and moved smoothly and beautifully.
F (movie version) looked solid.

Cooler's Revenge is a damn pretty movie and the character's move as naturally as their fictional world dictates. (Piccolo vs Sauza for example)

TLSS Broly was good looking from beginning to end and the character's were zooming about freely without limitation.

Bojack Unbound was a light show of colors and movement.

Return of Broly and Bio-Broly are stunning films that never feel clunky or not unique.

Fusion Reborn is a candy box full of interesting movements and visuals. Ones that even Toyotaro uses in his Manga!

WoTDragon is pretty to look at.

Shall I go on people?
From what i’ve observed it’s easier to animate because of the simpler approach. The lack of unneeded extra feature like highlights or shading makes the design sort of become a blank canvas for people to paint with their own art. They can use this desig to impose their own styles onto the character. It also allows for more loose and fluid movement as the extra features aren’t holding it back. It allows for more exaggerated movements like stretch illusions for more effect.

And yes, its clear that many animators agree as we have been seeing praise from animators about the new design and there were animators who spoke poorly about Yammy’s designs.

In fact, look what Shida just said about the new DBS Movie teaser: https://mobile.twitter.com/AnimeAjay/st ... 2612594693

Here’s proof of animators disliking Yammy’s work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWM04zsxKMw&t=601s (start at 7:20)
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by emperior » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:36 am

GTx10 wrote:
MrTennek wrote:People have developed some manner of Stockholm syndrome with Yamamuro's dreadful art style. :wtf:
Yamamuro's style isn't bad. It defined DB for how many years? A lot of years. Comparing his style to Stockholm syndrome is foolishness. Because if DB went back to looking like Dragon Ball (original) style then I would be like "woohoo! I'm on board for this!" If Meada came back I'd be happy too.
I'm not stuck on Yamamuro but I will not call his style "dreadful." He can draw better than both us and we both know it so we haven't a leg to stand on brah.
What the hell kind of argument is that? Of course Yamamuro can probably draw a lot better than the majority of people considering that it's his job.
His style defining Dragon Ball for years doesn't mean it is a good thing. In fact it's quite the opposite, but evidently people like you have grown way too attached to that plastic look.
Dragon Ball is actually going back to Maeda-like designs and you are here to complain, so you are quite a hypocrite.
And sorry to break it for you but, like it or not, both Battle of Gods and Resurrection F movies looked like plastic and the characters felt, for the most part, clunky and rigid like toys. There were indeed a few good cuts from those movies, but they were far too few and we got those mostly because of the animators' ability to still produce something good under Yamamuro's bad designs and his drastic corrections.

We finally got a good teaser showing just how smooth and clean the new look is, and yet you still are here to complain. Ok you like Dragon Ball to be a slideshow entirely drawn by Yamamuro, but please accept that there are fans who actually want to watch an animated movie.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Metalwario64 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:02 am

GTx10 wrote:I've noticed the term "easier to animate" being throw around a lot lately. I fail to see how the Yamamuro/Takahashi style is not easy to animate. I don't think that concept even makes sense considering that we have seen highly detailed DB related material in that style move perfectly fine. All of this screams "change for change's sake" under the guise of "this will update DB's quality and reputation."
Yamamuro's current designs are stiff, rigid, and have way too many details in the clothing and way too many layers of shading. His character sheets also don't have much expression, so animators are pressured to stay on model, which means that most animators don't go far outside of his provided drawings, with a few notable exceptions being animators like Tate, Shida and Takahashi. Not only that, but Yamamuro also is notorious for overly correcting other people's animation and removing all of their own unique personality.

Seriously, this new stuff only has a short teaser, and for just simple character animation it blows away anything Yamamuro himself has done in over two decades:
Image
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Sani007 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:02 am

think this is the first time - since Abale-chan Special - that Toei tries to animate Toriyama's current art style. Very exciting!

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:57 am

GTx10 wrote:I've noticed the term "easier to animate" being throw around a lot lately. I fail to see how the Yamamuro/Takahashi style is not easy to animate. I don't think that concept even makes sense considering that we have seen highly detailed DB related material in that style move perfectly fine. All of this screams "change for change's sake" under the guise of "this will update DB's quality and reputation."
Which is another thing too... Who are these industry folks who "mock" / "dislike" DB's current style of animation? Does anybody have any links to these comments? Are these commentator's worth a damn to begin with that their opinion would/should matter? And if they are that important why don't they throw their hat in the DB ring and shut us all up then?
Moral of the story, I have still yet to receive any "good examples" of why DB as a whole should look like these modern anime shows or why it should adhere to anything around it? Because isn't it making a butt load of money as it currently is?. Come on people give me your best arguments and shut my mouth because none of you have convinced me that this new style is the "best path for Dragon Ball as a whole."

Battle of Gods (movie version) Looked and moved smoothly and beautifully.
F (movie version) looked solid.

Cooler's Revenge is a damn pretty movie and the character's move as naturally as their fictional world dictates. (Piccolo vs Sauza for example)

TLSS Broly was good looking from beginning to end and the character's were zooming about freely without limitation.

Bojack Unbound was a light show of colors and movement.

Return of Broly and Bio-Broly are stunning films that never feel clunky or not unique.

Fusion Reborn is a candy box full of interesting movements and visuals. Ones that even Toyotaro uses in his Manga!

WoTDragon is pretty to look at.

Shall I go on people?
They're been literally 100's of posts from people like Ajay explaining why Yamamuro's designs are hard to animate(basically it comes down to everything being so defined and rigid that there is little to no room for creating fluent movement).
Takahashi is just insanely detailed, and while his animation is generally exceedingly more pleasant than Yamamuro's because it draws from the old designs, the old designs themselves aren't exactly best-suited for creating extremely fluent animation, or at the very least, not as well suited as these current designs are.

Just because something moves fine under one style doesn't mean it can't move better, and I think that's exactly why these designs were bought on to create the most animated Dragonball film ever. Also, the people that criticise Yamamuro are either well known animators that worked under him like series veterans Hisashi Eguchi and Masaki Sato, or just huge industry talents like Yoshimichi Kameda(I would not be exaggerating if I called his work godly).

I don't know what argument you need made to you other than DB needs to look good and keep up with the times in terms of quality, something that's egregiously failed to do under Yamamuro's animation supervision for the franchise. The amount of money its making is irrelevant to the quality of the product, something that DB is lacking.

All the DB films you mention here don't hold a candle in terms of quality to what modern Toei can produce, and what baffles me, is that you don't want to see how good a modern DB film can be with the right creative staff behind it.

Why would you not want the franchise you love to be as good as possible? Why defend mediocrity?

Your argument is beyond me.
cuartas wrote:Don't like it, this approach makes a larger line between the art and the background, goku is just thrown in a scenario completely out of any consistency, just like ps1 games like resident evil, ff, etc.

And they are definitelly exaggerating with no shading at all.
Not to mention that it looks like goku was animated with that method (idk the name) where you draw on top of a real human model moving
Um, Its a preview trailer, all of the preview trailers for the big films didn't have any context to them, so I don't see the problem here, since it actually served to build up some form of hype.

Also, there is one tone shading during close-ups, so its not like its always no-tone shading.

And no, this was obviously not roto-scoped, I don't know where you got that idea? I guess the animation was just so good that you thought it was roto-scoped I guess?

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Hawk9211 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:26 am

Not that well versed in shading,but the only thing I am not liking are the colours or shading I guess.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by majinwarman » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:29 am

Torturephile wrote:
majinwarman wrote:Hey! What is your opinions on the animation and art in the new movie trailer?
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBflpbZawAY
Gorgeous. Love me the old-school inspired art style coupled with expressive animation.
Amir wrote:So yeah, the new animation in the teaser is fucking awesome, fluid, smooth and high frame rated movements, very animated.

But, I have a question, why does it look so old with the art in general, the lines are kind of blurred and not smooth, even the backgrounds look like they're from the 90's. It looks like Z and DB with the ''graphics'' (I couldn't find a better word for it).
Is it going to get more polished or is this how it's gonna look in the final product?
I like it because of that.
Thank you for your opinion.
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