Interesting, a response from a moderator that includes a quote that is indirectly suggesting "ignore the ignorant and stubborn people, it's a lost cause" and this emote ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ is not indignant, but mine enters that category, it's like you're in favor of individuals and telling me I have to swallow that statement with no intent of defenseVegettoEX wrote:Indignant responses that attempt to mis-characterize our statements and mission are unacceptable.
1) I have read that post 3 times, the evidence is a guy named Kevin, let's assume he's a guru of the industry, but I have some problems with what he's saying:VegettoEX wrote:It should be — and is — clear that we encourage all members to offer thoughts, theories, and scenarios in an attempt to learn new things. We say often that everyone should always be learning.
When you ask these questions and then are actually presented with the evidence and sources/citations to back them up... bingo! Mission accomplished. It may not line up with what you had in mind, but that just means you've learned something new. That is a good thing, and not something to be stubborn about.
-He present a very specific scenario of failure that is not the norm and he clearly states that and it's not relevant and/or can be applied to Dragon Ball, but...
-He after comes with this statement: "often you just have impatient committee members that want the fruits of their investment as soon as possible", that also is not proven to be the norm aside from his word, and even if accurate, that represents an evident case of mismanagment (which I've been talking all day), that has no direct relation with money
-Later on he comes with this statement: "The latenight industry moves ridiculously fast so titles have small windows of relevance, and they don’t want to risk having to wait more seasons for them to air", which is not 100% applied to DBS since it has a high rate of success overseas, that's a thing the majority of animes on Japan can't count on and they depend entirely on the local market.
-Previously he said: "Quality beyond that obviously comes down to the individual talent" which ajay complements with people "who knows people", which doesn't convinces me
2) Those arguments doesn't convice me because:
-The first is an isolated and specific case, it doesn't applies to DBS
-The second, is more like a straight negative argument where all present and future animes are destined to be mismanaged, I presented a scenario of a project with a generous budget and well managed that seems reasonable, I didn't get a satisfactory counter-argument of why that scenario isn't possible aside from the talent (which depends on the directors with good relations, so I wondered about hiring those directors, but there's no clear argument on why hiring them is not possible either) and the schedule (that it gets an improvement with more workers contacted by the director, so one solution goes to another)
-The third is a thing I don't think it's happening on the heads of thee higher ups on toei, since they're earning a fortune from all over the world
-The fourth comes with a catch, as I said, as far as I know, DBS doesn't have the most talented animators in Japan, that was confirmed when it had that quality boost on the TOP due to tiger mask animators that joined the project once they finished there, and even so, it was capable to produce a nice goku black saga before, that with a majority of average animators and the addition of higashide, shida and some others.
On the other hand It always was stated that the problem was time, they got more animators and the show improved, but here this Kevin was saying that more animators was a guaranteed failure, so where do we stand for? I'd rather to believe in what's actually happening in DBS
So here is where I don't get it, if toei had more budget to hire complete teams to work on episodes (KA, AD, SB, etc), is not necessarily obligated to hire the most talented and expensive animators, in my opinion with just people at the same level of the current ones it would be a great step up because, again, we're talking about time, more time equals to a better schedule, animators focused on their episodes, more quality, etc, and since they're at the same level I can't objectively see how the quality can be dropped, time has been eternal discussion on this thread but apparently the argument changed recently, so now giving them more time in more spaced rotations is not a factor of improvement.
3) So I'm not satisfied because the argument ends up on worst case scenarios, on people (or people contacting other people) that can't be hired but a clear reason of why is not presented, a disaster on direction that happens when there's too much people or budget but only applied when there's bad decisions, never proven when the project has good managment, and time that apparently will be worse because is by default assumed that the extra people hired will be worse than the people we have today (Based on absolutely nothing) and will imply extra corrections, but always assuming the worst case that would happen, That's why It's not "bingo! Mission accomplished" for me
I could make a theory of a counter-argument that would convince me: "Having more budget can't hire more competent people, because the animation industry is in decadence so the young citizens wont find interest on taking this career on detriment of other more convenient ones, so the industry is stuck on the same people, everyone's working, so trying to convince them to cut their contracts to come and work to another project is really hard, since there's this thing called honor or that Japanese culture about their bounds with their companies and blahblahblah".
I would be convinced here because in that case there's nothing that money can do, there is morals involved, but that's a crazy argument I invented to definitely prove budget can not determine the quality of a product, the actual arguments I'm reading are ambiguous, the type of "this is what experts say, we have to believe them" and biased towards failure, there's no opinions from the other side and where the conditions for a successful project are met.
Apparently for arguing this I broke several rules and I'm worth of trolling by a moderator and threatened to be banned by an admin.
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