Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by Artorias » Wed May 24, 2017 9:13 pm

Ajay's post has me genuinely curious as to how this tournament is going to play out in terms of structure, given the intense demands it puts on the animation department. I just can't see Toei nailing this to be honest, even if Ajay's post wasn't true. The way I see it, there are 3 possibilities for this all to go down:

1) The tournament is like 3-4 episodes
2) There is SHITLOADS of stalling and filler in between the action, even by Dragon Ball standards, so there's only a few minutes of real action per episode
3) It's long, but half the fights look like trash, and this turns into another U6 tournament debacle

I also don't feel like this is gonna be the battle royal everyone is hoping for. It's much more likely that it'll just devolve into a bunch of separate 1 v 1's and 2 v 2's for the most part, maybe with the exception of the very beginning. I'd love to put a fourth option, where Toei nails this and the tournament is a long, well-animated spectacle the likes of which we've never seen...but I just don't see that happening. This would be difficult to nail for Mad House, let alone the mess of a company that is Toei right now. Sorry for the pessimism, but I'm just trying to be realistic, and avoid setting myself up for crushing disappointment. I think we'll still see some great fights and memorable sequences, but I think it'll probably end up being a let down as a whole.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by Hit!! » Wed May 24, 2017 10:27 pm

Being realistic, i honestly doubt there will be a debacle in terms of quality during the tournament like in the U6 arc. I believe the fights will look good and the most important ones will look exceptional.

I'm expecting them to focus on individual 1 on 1s and 2 on 2's, especially towards the end, i'm also expecting plenty of action. Some character building for the new characters and a lot of padding. But I'm almost positive we are in for a ride in terms of interesting animation, even though there might be some hiccups.

All in all, i doubt we will see some down right BAD animation. I think Super is past that already. Al least i hope so.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by Gashif Aldi » Thu May 25, 2017 4:13 am

Artorias wrote:Ajay's post has me genuinely curious as to how this tournament is going to play out in terms of structure, given the intense demands it puts on the animation department. I just can't see Toei nailing this to be honest, even if Ajay's post wasn't true. The way I see it, there are 3 possibilities for this all to go down:

1) The tournament is like 3-4 episodes
2) There is SHITLOADS of stalling and filler in between the action, even by Dragon Ball standards, so there's only a few minutes of real action per episode
3) It's long, but half the fights look like trash, and this turns into another U6 tournament debacle

I also don't feel like this is gonna be the battle royal everyone is hoping for. It's much more likely that it'll just devolve into a bunch of separate 1 v 1's and 2 v 2's for the most part, maybe with the exception of the very beginning. I'd love to put a fourth option, where Toei nails this and the tournament is a long, well-animated spectacle the likes of which we've never seen...but I just don't see that happening. This would be difficult to nail for Mad House, let alone the mess of a company that is Toei right now. Sorry for the pessimism, but I'm just trying to be realistic, and avoid setting myself up for crushing disappointment. I think we'll still see some great fights and memorable sequences, but I think it'll probably end up being a let down as a whole.
The past 10 episodes have all of them outsourced.
It's either Wanpack or TAP. And there's Shida, Takahashi , Otsuka, Higashide not to mention Nagamine's connection from BONES Studio like Yamazaki.... I hope Iseki is here though. I hope he have connections with more talented animators.

So little animators from in-house Studio

It's weird. TOEI have like 5 long running animes ongoing right now, and you're comparing it with MadHouse that only do like 1 anime/year. Tiger Mask W is beyond good, PreCure is still amazing, Digimon is good too.
Dang. Can't they just grab a lots of stuff from other shows just for the tournament? Give them 50$ per frame already.

I heard even the Head of TOEI or the Boss is even working at Super's production.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by ArchedThunder » Thu May 25, 2017 10:02 am

Toshio said on Twitter that the scripts for Super take 3 weeks to a month to write, so I guess now we know that at least the scripts themselves aren't rushed. I wonder the average time for storyboards, I imagine those are still rushed, at least to some extent.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu May 25, 2017 11:44 am

Hit!! wrote:Being realistic, i honestly doubt there will be a debacle in terms of quality during the tournament like in the U6 arc. I believe the fights will look good and the most important ones will look exceptional.

I'm expecting them to focus on individual 1 on 1s and 2 on 2's, especially towards the end, i'm also expecting plenty of action. Some character building for the new characters and a lot of padding. But I'm almost positive we are in for a ride in terms of interesting animation, even though there might be some hiccups.

All in all, i doubt we will see some down right BAD animation. I think Super is past that already. Al least i hope so.
Yeah Super's average looking episodes now are still miles ahead of the past arcs good looking episodes. #91 was a really good polished and clean episode when it really didn't need to be, #90 had a horrific production and it turned out the opposite of #5, there is a lot to look forward to in the ToP and confident Toei will deliver.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Thu May 25, 2017 1:39 pm

Informative thread. Such hard work is appreciated. I think Super's animation has improved; though nowhere near as much as I would have liked. Imo, Super still looks kind of bad given the amount of money the franchise generates. It would be awesome if some of the merchandise sales could be recycled back into the teams to increase staff and talent. It's disheartening, especially when you look at budgets in the west; 10 episodes of Family Guy (a season) have a bigger budget than 90 episodes of Super. I wish Japanese entertainment took bigger financial risks in general; the east, specifically Japan, seems to be very risk adverse.

If Toei needs to cut corners with such a monumental franchise this badly, I wish they'd just go the seasonal route as I personally feel Dragon Ball is the "The Ultimate" and should set itself apart, compared to other anime, in terms of visual quality. Super nails almost everything, imo, except the animation. It's either middle-of-the-pack or shocking behind most of its non-Toei weekly contemporaries, in this regard. I feel as though, if there ever was this huge weekly anime with an industry topping budget, it should be Dragon Ball. I would hate to see DB beaten to the punch.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by ArchedThunder » Thu May 25, 2017 1:57 pm

ClutchBangstrip wrote:Informative thread. I think Super's animation has improved; though nowhere near as much as I would have liked. Imo, Super still looks kind of bad given the amount of money the franchise generates. It would be awesome if some of the merchandise sales could be recycled back into the teams to increase staff and talent. It's disheartening, especially when you look at budgets in the west; 10 episodes of Family Guy (a season) have a bigger budget than 90 episodes of Super. I wish Japanese entertainment took bigger financial risks in general; the east, specifically Japan, seems to be very risk adverse.

If Toei needs to cut corners with such a monumental franchise this badly, I wish they'd just go the seasonal route as I personally feel Dragon Ball is the "The Ultimate" and should set itself apart, compared to other anime, in terms of visual quality. Super nails almost everything, imo, except the animation. It's either middle-of-the-pack or shocking behind most of its non-Toei weekly contemporaries, in this regard. I feel as though, if there ever was this huge weekly anime with an industry topping budget, it should be Dragon Ball. I would hate to see DB beaten to the punch.
Super's issue is not a money one. The show started with very little preproduction, so each episode is made in a rush to meet the deadlines. Due to the nature of the show they can't take the show off the air to improve it, so improvements have to come slowly. Toei spends a lot on the show to get it looking as good as it does.
The show is also restricted to when Toriyama finishes his outlines, which makes it harder for them to plan ahead on future arcs.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Thu May 25, 2017 2:01 pm

ArchedThunder wrote:
ClutchBangstrip wrote:Informative thread. I think Super's animation has improved; though nowhere near as much as I would have liked. Imo, Super still looks kind of bad given the amount of money the franchise generates. It would be awesome if some of the merchandise sales could be recycled back into the teams to increase staff and talent. It's disheartening, especially when you look at budgets in the west; 10 episodes of Family Guy (a season) have a bigger budget than 90 episodes of Super. I wish Japanese entertainment took bigger financial risks in general; the east, specifically Japan, seems to be very risk adverse.

If Toei needs to cut corners with such a monumental franchise this badly, I wish they'd just go the seasonal route as I personally feel Dragon Ball is the "The Ultimate" and should set itself apart, compared to other anime, in terms of visual quality. Super nails almost everything, imo, except the animation. It's either middle-of-the-pack or shocking behind most of its non-Toei weekly contemporaries, in this regard. I feel as though, if there ever was this huge weekly anime with an industry topping budget, it should be Dragon Ball. I would hate to see DB beaten to the punch.
Super's issue is not a money one. The show started with very little preproduction, so each episode is made in a rush to meet the deadlines. Due to the nature of the show they can't take the show off the air to improve it, so improvements have to come slowly. Toei spends a lot on the show to get it looking as good as it does.
The issue I continue to hear is that there isn't enough staff working on the show to produce industry leading quality on a consistent basis in the short amount of time they have before the given deadline.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by ArchedThunder » Thu May 25, 2017 2:04 pm

ClutchBangstrip wrote: The issue I continue to hear is that there isn't enough staff working on the show to produce industry leading quality on a consistent basis.
There are tons of people who work on the show, but as far as great animators the list is pretty short and the core staff is kinda small. Super can't attract more talent until the production is in a better place, if animators don't want to work on the show because of the rush to meet deadlines they simply won't.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by emperior » Thu May 25, 2017 2:04 pm

ArchedThunder wrote:
ClutchBangstrip wrote:Informative thread. I think Super's animation has improved; though nowhere near as much as I would have liked. Imo, Super still looks kind of bad given the amount of money the franchise generates. It would be awesome if some of the merchandise sales could be recycled back into the teams to increase staff and talent. It's disheartening, especially when you look at budgets in the west; 10 episodes of Family Guy (a season) have a bigger budget than 90 episodes of Super. I wish Japanese entertainment took bigger financial risks in general; the east, specifically Japan, seems to be very risk adverse.

If Toei needs to cut corners with such a monumental franchise this badly, I wish they'd just go the seasonal route as I personally feel Dragon Ball is the "The Ultimate" and should set itself apart, compared to other anime, in terms of visual quality. Super nails almost everything, imo, except the animation. It's either middle-of-the-pack or shocking behind most of its non-Toei weekly contemporaries, in this regard. I feel as though, if there ever was this huge weekly anime with an industry topping budget, it should be Dragon Ball. I would hate to see DB beaten to the punch.
Super's issue is not a money one. The show started with very little preproduction, so each episode is made in a rush to meet the deadlines. Due to the nature of the show they can't take the show off the air to improve it, so improvements have to come slowly. Toei spends a lot on the show to get it looking as good as it does.
Right now, I believe Super is in a good state. If the tournament ends up being good in terms of art and animation, then it will be safe to say Super's schedule has been fixed. The amount of filler and outsourcing we have gotten since episode 67 is insane, so it really seems like they decided to focus on fixing the show's problems. Now, if only they did it much sooner, it would have been a lot better. The fillers we got in between FT arc and US arc could have probably done in between BoG and RoF arcs... there would have been an uproar because everyone wanted to move on from the movie contents but if they actually took their time back then, I think we would have gotten a much more enjoyable show... such a shame, really.
My dream would be Toei re-releasing Blu Ray discs with actually good art all throughout (and some fixes to bad animation), once Super is over. But there's like a 0.1% of chance of it happening.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Thu May 25, 2017 2:09 pm

ArchedThunder wrote:
ClutchBangstrip wrote: The issue I continue to hear is that there isn't enough staff working on the show to produce industry leading quality on a consistent basis.
There are tons of people who work on the show, but as far as great animators the list is pretty short and the core staff is kinda small. Super can't attract more talent until the production is in a better place, if animators don't want to work on the show because of the rush to meet deadlines they simply won't.
If that's an issue, they should work on fixing that, too. It would be good to hire more staff so that you have more people working. If employees have to do less, they can put more effort into their work; rather than speeding through to meet the deadline. I believe a bigger team would help produce better quality at an equally speedy pace.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by precita » Thu May 25, 2017 2:11 pm

Animating 80 characters on-screen at once was a disaster waiting to happen. Still have no idea why they made the tournament this way.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by Ajay » Thu May 25, 2017 2:12 pm

ClutchBangstrip wrote:A way to remedy this, imo, would be to hire more staff so that you have more people working. If employees have to do less, they can put more effort into their work; rather than speeding through to meet the deadline.
That always sounds like an easy fix, but the reality is, "What staff?!"

Unfortunately, the reality of the industry at the moment is that there aren't enough staff compared to the number of shows being made at once.

Toei can't bring in people that don't exist, and at the same time, as ArchedThunder mentioned, if people don't want to work on the series, then there's nothing they can do.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Thu May 25, 2017 2:19 pm

emperior wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:
ClutchBangstrip wrote:Informative thread. I think Super's animation has improved; though nowhere near as much as I would have liked. Imo, Super still looks kind of bad given the amount of money the franchise generates. It would be awesome if some of the merchandise sales could be recycled back into the teams to increase staff and talent. It's disheartening, especially when you look at budgets in the west; 10 episodes of Family Guy (a season) have a bigger budget than 90 episodes of Super. I wish Japanese entertainment took bigger financial risks in general; the east, specifically Japan, seems to be very risk adverse.

If Toei needs to cut corners with such a monumental franchise this badly, I wish they'd just go the seasonal route as I personally feel Dragon Ball is the "The Ultimate" and should set itself apart, compared to other anime, in terms of visual quality. Super nails almost everything, imo, except the animation. It's either middle-of-the-pack or shocking behind most of its non-Toei weekly contemporaries, in this regard. I feel as though, if there ever was this huge weekly anime with an industry topping budget, it should be Dragon Ball. I would hate to see DB beaten to the punch.
Super's issue is not a money one. The show started with very little preproduction, so each episode is made in a rush to meet the deadlines. Due to the nature of the show they can't take the show off the air to improve it, so improvements have to come slowly. Toei spends a lot on the show to get it looking as good as it does.
Right now, I believe Super is in a good state. If the tournament ends up being good in terms of art and animation, then it will be safe to say Super's schedule has been fixed. The amount of filler and outsourcing we have gotten since episode 67 is insane, so it really seems like they decided to focus on fixing the show's problems. Now, if only they did it much sooner, it would have been a lot better. The fillers we got in between FT arc and US arc could have probably done in between BoG and RoF arcs... there would have been an uproar because everyone wanted to move on from the movie contents but if they actually took their time back then, I think we would have gotten a much more enjoyable show... such a shame, really.
My dream would be Toei re-releasing Blu Ray discs with actually good art all throughout (and some fixes to bad animation), once Super is over. But there's like a 0.1% of chance of it happening.
Yes, I think Super is in a good spot too. I also think you have the right idea about the coulda-shoulda-woulda in terms of previous arcs. I think Super WILL finally pull through in this arc. I think the tournament will look awesome, but that's just a hunch.
Ajay wrote:
ClutchBangstrip wrote:A way to remedy this, imo, would be to hire more staff so that you have more people working. If employees have to do less, they can put more effort into their work; rather than speeding through to meet the deadline.
That always sounds like an easy fix, but the reality is, "What staff?!"

Unfortunately, the reality of the industry at the moment is that there aren't enough staff compared to the number of shows being made at once.

Toei can't bring in people that don't exist, and at the same time, as ArchedThunder mentioned, if people don't want to work on the series, then there's nothing they can do.
Maybe, more foreigners? The animation talent across the planet Earth can't be this adverse to working on a juggernaut like Dragon Ball, can they? I know there are tons of westerns chomping at the bit to work in Japan, should working conditions OR pay improve.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by Ajay » Thu May 25, 2017 2:27 pm

ClutchBangstrip wrote:Maybe, more foreigners? The animation talent across the planet Earth can't be this adverse to working on a juggernaut like Dragon Ball, can they? I know there are tons of westerns chomping at the bit to work in Japan, should working conditions OR pay improve.
It's certainly possible, but I know that some foreign animators working in Japan right now have commented on the language barrier being one of the major things preventing people from working there.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by ArchedThunder » Thu May 25, 2017 2:32 pm

emperior wrote: Right now, I believe Super is in a good state. If the tournament ends up being good in terms of art and animation, then it will be safe to say Super's schedule has been fixed. The amount of filler and outsourcing we have gotten since episode 67 is insane, so it really seems like they decided to focus on fixing the show's problems. Now, if only they did it much sooner, it would have been a lot better. The fillers we got in between FT arc and US arc could have probably done in between BoG and RoF arcs... there would have been an uproar because everyone wanted to move on from the movie contents but if they actually took their time back then, I think we would have gotten a much more enjoyable show... such a shame, really.
My dream would be Toei re-releasing Blu Ray discs with actually good art all throughout (and some fixes to bad animation), once Super is over. But there's like a 0.1% of chance of it happening.
The output is fairly good right now, but the schedule is definitely not fixed.
The show is pretty regularly doing a good job of tricking viewers into thinking that the production is normal though.
ClutchBangstrip wrote: If that's an issue, they should work on fixing that, too. It would be good to hire more staff so that you have more people working. If employees have to do less, they can put more effort into their work; rather than speeding through to meet the deadline. I believe a bigger team would help produce better quality at an equally speedy pace.
Like Ajay said, there's a huge shortage of animators and most animators aren't going to chose to work on a show that's always in a mad rush when they could work on something else. The show has been able to get a significant amount of outsource work this arc though, which helps a whole lot. There's also issues of other things, animation is most certainly not the only issue in the production, things like when storyboards are completed are probably still a big part.
It was nice to find out today that scripts are written in a normal amount of time, though it's still not clear when they are finished in comparison to when the episode will air. If the scripts are still coming in a little later than a normal anime production I wouldn't be surprised if they were on track (or close) by next arc thanks to Tomioka's writing speed. That man has probably been one of the biggest helps to the show.
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Maybe, more foreigners? The animation talent across the planet Earth can't be this adverse to working on a juggernaut like Dragon Ball, can they? I know there are tons of westerns chomping at the bit to work in Japan, should working conditions OR pay improve.
The show already does outsource plenty of work to the Philippines and a fair amount to Korea, more could be done though if they can find people willing.
Working conditions and pay for animators are generally pretty poor in Japan, though Toei apparently treats its animators much better and gives them better pay. I have no idea how they pay freelancers and outsource studios though.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by Sodhi » Thu May 25, 2017 7:20 pm

Freelancers can actually make really good money. They can demand their own prices to an extent. On the other hand studios refrain from hiring foreigners since there is a language barrier and they might have to support their visas. More info here
http://kotaku.com/being-an-animator-in- ... 1690248803

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by Gashif Aldi » Thu May 25, 2017 8:52 pm

Also, there's other long-running shows that doesn't look bad like Super, even from TOEI like PreCure.
So seasonal routes sucks.

Btw PreCure legit have 5x times better animation than Super.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by PMD » Thu May 25, 2017 9:23 pm

Artorias wrote:Ajay's post has me genuinely curious as to how this tournament is going to play out in terms of structure, given the intense demands it puts on the animation department. I just can't see Toei nailing this to be honest, even if Ajay's post wasn't true. The way I see it, there are 3 possibilities for this all to go down:

1) The tournament is like 3-4 episodes
2) There is SHITLOADS of stalling and filler in between the action, even by Dragon Ball standards, so there's only a few minutes of real action per episode
3) It's long, but half the fights look like trash, and this turns into another U6 tournament debacle

I also don't feel like this is gonna be the battle royal everyone is hoping for. It's much more likely that it'll just devolve into a bunch of separate 1 v 1's and 2 v 2's for the most part, maybe with the exception of the very beginning. I'd love to put a fourth option, where Toei nails this and the tournament is a long, well-animated spectacle the likes of which we've never seen...but I just don't see that happening. This would be difficult to nail for Mad House, let alone the mess of a company that is Toei right now. Sorry for the pessimism, but I'm just trying to be realistic, and avoid setting myself up for crushing disappointment. I think we'll still see some great fights and memorable sequences, but I think it'll probably end up being a let down as a whole.
I would agree with your expectations to some degree, and I must say I do not consider it pessimism but realism, given the production's problems of DBS that you all mentioned before in this topic.

Having said that, I will say that I will be satisfied if they at least reach the level of DBZ as a whole, which is not incredible, compared to other animes, to be honest.

Zamasu's arc had some really cool fights and in their worst moments, they at least pulled repeated cuts (I don't know if that's the proper term) in fights to give the whole product a certain level of consistency, like they used to do in DBZ.

Also, if you let me, I would add a 4 option, in which Toei / Toriyama pulls a gag in which the Battle Royale just ends up having 4 or 5 guys fighting in the first couple of minutes of the tournament, after one of the fighters makes a gigantic blast that blows most of the contestants out of the arena. That would be a stupid idea, but given recent writing paths they chose to take, I would not be surprised, and it could be kind of a creative way to get along with the production's needs to reach a certain level of quality in terms of animation.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 90

Post by ArchedThunder » Thu May 25, 2017 9:46 pm

Has Fuji TV uploaded a preview image yet?

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