Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by Ajay » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:55 pm

Yamamuro was behind the character designs for Battle of Gods, and continues to hold that role for both Revival of 'F' and Super. Under Yamamuro's direction, he continues to look his age:
The issue is that many of the animators working on Super either can't or don't want to draw him looking "Z-appropriate". There's also Toriyama's original character design which paints him in a younger light.

It's hard to know where exactly to place the blame. The One Piece influence certainly doesn't help matters. Their designs creeping into Dragon Ball only serve to age down the characters.

It feels a little bit like the series is losing its identity with these discrepancies. As much as I hark on about Yamamuro's unimaginative work and would love for animators to be able throw their own touch on things, it seems the negatives that come with this are severely outweighing the positives in Super's case. For every one Iseki-esque episode, there are a hundred poor Yamamuro imitations.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:59 pm

I don't have a problem with Gohan looking young, he's what, 20 or 21 now? My problem lies in the overly long and overly thin design for him and Tagoma, I do not find them appealing and for me, they don't work in action scenes. It just looks weird and unnatural.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by Basaku » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:05 pm

Ajay wrote: The issue is that many of the animators working on Super either can't or don't want to draw him looking "Z-appropriate". There's also Toriyama's original character design which paints him in a younger light.
Or Toriyama's current idea of grandfather Goku & Vegeta:
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:11 pm

Basaku wrote:
Ajay wrote: The issue is that many of the animators working on Super either can't or don't want to draw him looking "Z-appropriate". There's also Toriyama's original character design which paints him in a younger light.
Or Toriyama's current idea of grandfather Goku & Vegeta:
Image

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It's already explained that Saiyan's basically stop aging once they hit thirty. There's little reason for Goku or Vegeta to age now when they're exactly the same in EoZ as they were in the Boo Saga.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by raulvalente » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:12 pm

Basaku wrote:
Ajay wrote: The issue is that many of the animators working on Super either can't or don't want to draw him looking "Z-appropriate". There's also Toriyama's original character design which paints him in a younger light.
Or Toriyama's current idea of grandfather Goku & Vegeta:
Image

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Both Goku and Vegeta are in their early 40's during the events of Super. These designs don't look that far away from it, in my opinion.

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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by Basaku » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:14 pm

ekrolo2 wrote: It's already explained that Saiyan's basically stop aging once they hit thirty. There's little reason for Goku or Vegeta to age now when they're exactly the same in EoZ as they were in the Boo Saga.
Everyone knows that. The problem is that they look 20 in that drawing. Way younger and boyish compared to how Toriyama drew them in say, Cell saga

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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:19 pm

Basaku wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: It's already explained that Saiyan's basically stop aging once they hit thirty. There's little reason for Goku or Vegeta to age now when they're exactly the same in EoZ as they were in the Boo Saga.
Everyone knows that. The problem is that they look 20 in that drawing. Way younger and boyish compared to how Toriyama drew them in say, Cell saga
Neither Goku or Vegeta look anywhere near as young as say their Saiyan Saga selves. Definitely not as old as they probably should look, but they're alien freaks who don't grow older anyway so I don't mind it. Its characters who should look older by now like Goten, Trunks, Krillin, Tien who bug me.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:01 am

The problem is that you're all assuming these drawings have to be literal. They're not, they don't try to be.

Animatorscorner.com has the staff for #23 up. The B-Part is supervised by Kinoshita Yui, not Ishikawa. Tate Naoki was second credited under key animation, so his Episode #25 will likely suffer. You can also compare just how many of the key animators worked on One Piece.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by Ajay » Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:20 am

JulieYBM wrote:The problem is that you're all assuming these drawings have to be literal. They're not, they don't try to be.
We've spoken before, so you know full well that I have no issue with animators getting creative with their work. But I do think there's a discussion to be had about series identity.

I'd love for animators to get creative, and they certainly have at points in Super, but the parts that stick out aren't due to creativity -- it's the opposite, in fact. I shouldn't look at Dragon Ball and be able to make side-by-sides with One Piece so easily. That's not creativity, that's sticking with what you know.

Image

Most of the animators on this episode aren't involved with One Piece in any way, so I'm chalking this up to Tate. Don't get me wrong, I love both shows, but they shouldn't share one another's traits. There's absolutely nothing wrong with yearning for identity (not to be mistaken for uniformity).
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by Draconic » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:32 am

I don't even watch One Piece from anything more than a couple of scenes I watched on YT to check it out afterhearing how popular it was a long time ago and I could see the influences on this episode clearly. There is one thing to have some off model shots done in DB's style, which are inevitable. But having bad shots inspired from another show (especially one with a worse art style than DB's imo) is really sad.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by irreality » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:03 pm

Draconic wrote:I don't even watch One Piece from anything more than a couple of scenes I watched on YT to check it out afterhearing how popular it was a long time ago and I could see the influences on this episode clearly. There is one thing to have some off model shots done in DB's style, which are inevitable. But having bad shots inspired from another show (especially one with a worse art style than DB's imo) is really sad.
Are you familiar enough with all the animation of the 80's and 90's to know that bad animation days then also didn't resemble other shows by Toei in the same time period or produced by the same studios? (I mean, I'm not, so I can't comment: but I'm sure there were cross influences then, too).

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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:21 pm

Tate did do that power up. What episode is the One Piece screen cap from?
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by Ajay » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:26 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Tate did do that power up. What episode is the One Piece screen cap from?
It's from #110. I just grabbed a shot from the last episode I watched; I'm sure there are more relevant Tate-led episodes to draw comparisons from. I was just demonstrating the two aesthetics.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:30 pm

Animators do have signature poses they draw from, like Oobari.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by Ajay » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:39 pm

Yes? I'm fully aware, but that's entirely irrelevant to the point I'm making here. This is about series identity. You can pose your character however you want, but that doesn't involve stripping the character of their design to the point where they look like they belong in an entirely different production. There's no creative excuse for that.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:45 pm

Animators do that all the time. Gohan only looks like an early One Piece character because his current design, by Toriyama, has him as lanky. He only really looks that way for all of two cuts, too. Given all of Tate's work following that bit being completely different looking I'd harfly say there's any identity being lost.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by Ajay » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:59 pm

I'm not even talking about that episode specifically, though. Super from the beginning has featured many shots of Goku with "Luffy-face", and just last week we had yet another pivotal moment marred by the One Piece influence. It's not a particularly prevalent issue, no, but it's enough to irritate me when it does occur.

Toriyama's designs are irrelevant. The animators are going by Yamamuro's character designs, which disregard Toriyama's current style almost entirely. They're simply not adhering to the show's look. I really don't like it. At least Iseki's deviations were in tune with the franchise.

There's just a lot of little niggles about the show's visuals that bug me. The textures used in the backgrounds, for example, are directly taken from One Piece. It just makes me sad to see the series' overall identity lessened over those sort of things. It makes me regret criticising the smaller aspects of the latest films so heavily.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by BluePiccolo » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:50 pm

Ajay wrote:I'm not even talking about that episode specifically, though. Super from the beginning has featured many shots of Goku with "Luffy-face", and just last week we had yet another pivotal moment marred by the One Piece influence. It's not a particularly prevalent issue, no, but it's enough to irritate me when it does occur.

Toriyama's designs are irrelevant. The animators are going by Yamamuro's character designs, which disregard Toriyama's current style almost entirely. They're simply not adhering to the show's look. I really don't like it. At least Iseki's deviations were in tune with the franchise.

There's just a lot of little niggles about the show's visuals that bug me. The textures used in the backgrounds, for example, are directly taken from One Piece. It just makes me sad to see the series' overall identity lessened over those sort of things. It makes me regret criticising the smaller aspects of the latest films so heavily.
I just want to point out that one of the coolest character designs for DB are the ones from your avatar. Ironically the DBS logo is in the back, heh.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by Cursemark505 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:42 pm

Ajay wrote:It's hard to know where exactly to place the blame. The One Piece influence certainly doesn't help matters. Their designs creeping into Dragon Ball only serve to age down the characters.

You're clearly reaching. Most One Piece characters are fully grown adults & look their age. The only childish looking adult character is Luffy & even he is muscular & was only drawn lankier in early parts of the series. Dragon ball characters clearly have a more childish look to them in general.
You can pose your character however you want, but that doesn't involve stripping the character of their design to the point where they look like they belong in an entirely different production

The only things similar about those pictures are the poses and that's not an uncommon thing in anime. That picture of Gohan doesn't look like OP at all.

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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 23) [Update 4]

Post by Ajay » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:00 pm

Cursemark505 wrote:You're clearly reaching. Most One Piece characters are fully grown adults & look their age. The only childish looking adult character is Luffy & even he is muscular & was only drawn lankier in early parts of the series. Dragon ball characters clearly have a more childish look to them in general. The only things similar about those pictures are the poses and that's not an uncommon thing in anime. That picture of Gohan doesn't look like OP at all.
Yeah, no. There's no reaching going on here. It's not about One Piece characters looking young, it's about applying Oda's style to Dragon Ball, which leaves characters looking a lot younger. Likewise, you've entirely missed the point about the comparison image. It's not about the pose. It's about the proportions. If you cannot see the resemblance to One Piece, then I suggest you reassess that series. The long gangly arms and giant fists are stand-out features from that manga/anime.
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