Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by majinwarman » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:33 am

Lord Beerus wrote:The teaser looks gorgeous. Goku has never looked so smooth, loose and dynamic in animation before. It's the breath of fresh air in Dragon Ball art-style department that was desperately needed. And more importantly, it's very animation friendly.

Good stuff, Toei. :thumbup:
majinwarman wrote:Hey! What is your opinions on the animation and art in the new movie trailer?
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBflpbZawAY
The uploader has not made this video available in your country.
Jokes on them. I already watched the teaser hours ago. :)
My bad for giving you a bad link.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Firebolt » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:42 am

That teaser was simply amazing. Simple yet charming character art, gorgeous smears, super-smooth movement and fantastic character acting.

I hope they don't go full One Piece Movie 6 though and make the characters super-simple while the backgrounds are extremely detailed, that would be very distracting.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:53 am

Metalwario64 wrote:
GTx10 wrote:I've noticed the term "easier to animate" being throw around a lot lately. I fail to see how the Yamamuro/Takahashi style is not easy to animate. I don't think that concept even makes sense considering that we have seen highly detailed DB related material in that style move perfectly fine. All of this screams "change for change's sake" under the guise of "this will update DB's quality and reputation."
Yamamuro's current designs are stiff, rigid, and have way too many details in the clothing and way too many layers of shading. His character sheets also don't have much expression, so animators are pressured to stay on model, which means that most animators don't go far outside of his provided drawings, with a few notable exceptions being animators like Tate, Shida and Takahashi. Not only that, but Yamamuro also is notorious for overly correcting other people's animation and removing all of their own unique personality.

Seriously, this new stuff only has a short teaser, and for just simple character animation it blows away anything Yamamuro himself has done in over two decades:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Simple designs means more time for animators to actually animate. Modern DB has been held back by Yamamuro it is about darn time we moved on!

No hair highlights not stupid extra fourth back spike... finally a good looking base Goku :)

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:47 am

The more I think about this, the more exited I am. Right now there is an opportunity to totally overhaul the Dragon Ball anime's visual style and direction. How often does an opportunity like this come up? As much as the current style can look awesome in the hands of people like Takahashi or Shida, I feel like the series could really use some freshening up.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by paulo89988 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:38 am

Now it's absolutely confirmed!
https://twitter.com/naoV47/status/957267861247946753

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by cuartas » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:51 am

Ok, all this discussion is gonna be sorted out only when the movie airs, it has a fire trial to surpass what ep 130 did that is the best thing Dragon Ball ever produced and yeah, using the designs all of you hate.
If it turns out that this movie isn't WAAAAYYYYY better animated and never show more epicness than the episode, then the all life argument of looser > detailed was pointless.

In any case it shouldn't be that hard to beat an episode in a show with schedule problems right? I wanna see how a serious/angry goku can look without shading, I wanna see how an UI goku can look with those oversimplified designs, and more importantly, I wanna be blown up by this movie, I don't expect less, I really wanna be proven you guys were right all this time.

At the moment my only pros for these designs are the 3 back spikes, no hair highlights, and bouncy goku, I didn't like the roundness, I didn't like the excessive lack of shading, I didn't like the oval face shape, I didn't like that eye closeup that changed the pupil (so generic), I didn't like the movements previous his usual pose (this is not a thing of stiffness or not, it's just that those movements looked excessive, unnecessary and all over the place and hopefully this is just a concept to show how goku moves, and not a future norm to make goku look ridiculous before making a battle pose)
JazzMazz wrote: They're been literally 100's of posts from people like Ajay explaining why Yamamuro's designs are hard to animate(basically it comes down to everything being so defined and rigid that there is little to no room for creating fluent movement).
The same guy that does this intro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc7ZLsS-HEU

good god :roll:

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:37 pm

Episode #130 was good because it was off-model. Nobody has been praising the episode for Yamamuro, have they?
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by emperior » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:05 pm

cuartas wrote:Ok, all this discussion is gonna be sorted out only when the movie airs, it has a fire trial to surpass what ep 130 did that is the best thing Dragon Ball ever produced and yeah, using the designs all of you hate.
If it turns out that this movie isn't WAAAAYYYYY better animated and never show more epicness than the episode, then the all life argument of looser > detailed was pointless.

In any case it shouldn't be that hard to beat an episode in a show with schedule problems right? I wanna see how a serious/angry goku can look without shading, I wanna see how an UI goku can look with those oversimplified designs, and more importantly, I wanna be blown up by this movie, I don't expect less, I really wanna be proven you guys were right all this time.

At the moment my only pros for these designs are the 3 back spikes, no hair highlights, and bouncy goku, I didn't like the roundness, I didn't like the excessive lack of shading, I didn't like the oval face shape, I didn't like that eye closeup that changed the pupil (so generic), I didn't like the movements previous his usual pose (this is not a thing of stiffness or not, it's just that those movements looked excessive, unnecessary and all over the place and hopefully this is just a concept to show how goku moves, and not a future norm to make goku look ridiculous before making a battle pose)
JazzMazz wrote: They're been literally 100's of posts from people like Ajay explaining why Yamamuro's designs are hard to animate(basically it comes down to everything being so defined and rigid that there is little to no room for creating fluent movement).
The same guy that does this intro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc7ZLsS-HEU

good god :roll:
On a technical aspect I'm 100% sure this movie will blow 130 out of the water, but I'm also sure you will be here to complain about the movie's animation because the art won't be as detailed as you want it to be.

Even if the movie has objectively worse animation than 130, which it obviously won't, I would still prefer it just for the sheer fact I will actually be able to fully enjoy the drawings considering how clean they look. The aura too, for what we've seen so far, looks a lot less distracting than what we got in the TV show, and the colors are gorgeous and exactly like in the manga.

By the way it's very immature of you to post that Ajay's intro, which he obviously made as a joke, to reply to a post you disagree with.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by FartiliciousManChild » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:18 pm

Mother of God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPrSGs2vFAo

I know this is made for a video game and might be using 3d models or be computer generated and stuff (although some parts do look drawn), but goddamn. THIS IS WHAT I WOULD LOVE TO DEATH for a Dragon Ball movie or anime. And yes i'm aware that it's quite likely a totally unrealistic thing to expect/ask from Toei; but in an ideal world, this is what i would consider the most ideal look possible.

The artstyle, the shading, the effects. Everything about it is spot on and absolutely perfect to me. Just woaw. Could you imagine a movie looking similiar to this (especially from 0:56 till 1:17)? That would be the ultimate dream.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by cuartas » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:51 pm

emperior wrote: On a technical aspect I'm 100% sure this movie will blow 130 out of the water, but I'm also sure you will be here to complain about the movie's animation because the art won't be as detailed as you want it to be.
Oh yes, it's a fact that the movie is going to have to double work on animation department to fill the hole on art that this new designs leave behind, that's the only certain thing about this movie
emperior wrote: By the way it's very immature of you to post that Ajay's intro, which he obviously made as a joke, to reply to a post you disagree with.
Inmature how? it's his creation to hate on yamamuro that way, not mine. I kinda lose some respect on someone's arguments when I find this kind of bs

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:40 pm

cuartas wrote:Inmature how? it's his creation to hate on yamamuro that way, not mine. I kinda lose some respect on someone's arguments when I find this kind of bs
That's still not how you do a rebuttal to his argument of why the new designs and approach are better.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:54 pm

cuartas wrote:
emperior wrote: On a technical aspect I'm 100% sure this movie will blow 130 out of the water, but I'm also sure you will be here to complain about the movie's animation because the art won't be as detailed as you want it to be.
Oh yes, it's a fact that the movie is going to have to double work on animation department to fill the hole on art that this new designs leave behind, that's the only certain thing about this movie
emperior wrote: By the way it's very immature of you to post that Ajay's intro, which he obviously made as a joke, to reply to a post you disagree with.
Inmature how? it's his creation to hate on yamamuro that way, not mine. I kinda lose some respect on someone's arguments when I find this kind of bs
I find this response a little funny coming from you.

I don't see how the new designs are worse than Yamamuro's old ones, like at all. The purpose of character designs is to support animation, if completely and utterly fail to do that, then they're bad character designs, its that simple.

Also, I don't where the hole in the art is going to come from, since the new characters are already made up of far more attractive shapes than Yamamuro's design, while also giving animators plenty of room to allow their own personal styles to come through. The difference between Yamamuro's character designs and the news ones besides being easier to animate, is that there is more malleability with what animators can do with the character designs, something that almost didn't exist in the old ones.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:03 pm

cuartas wrote:[spoiler]Ok, all this discussion is gonna be sorted out only when the movie airs, it has a fire trial to surpass what ep 130 did that is the best thing Dragon Ball ever produced and yeah, using the designs all of you hate.
If it turns out that this movie isn't WAAAAYYYYY better animated and never show more epicness than the episode, then the all life argument of looser > detailed was pointless.

In any case it shouldn't be that hard to beat an episode in a show with schedule problems right? I wanna see how a serious/angry goku can look without shading, I wanna see how an UI goku can look with those oversimplified designs, and more importantly, I wanna be blown up by this movie, I don't expect less, I really wanna be proven you guys were right all this time.

At the moment my only pros for these designs are the 3 back spikes, no hair highlights, and bouncy goku, I didn't like the roundness, I didn't like the excessive lack of shading, I didn't like the oval face shape, I didn't like that eye closeup that changed the pupil (so generic), I didn't like the movements previous his usual pose (this is not a thing of stiffness or not, it's just that those movements looked excessive, unnecessary and all over the place and hopefully this is just a concept to show how goku moves, and not a future norm to make goku look ridiculous before making a battle pose)[/spoiler]
It seems you are setting up for failure with those expectations. Toei made the decision nobody here did, people are simply giving their reasons as to why Toei did and why they like the change. You holding this to people is kind of ridiculous.

It might not work out, sure but that doesn't necessarily mean everyone was suddenly wrong. ResF had great KA on the film but none of them delivered what they were capable of as they were at the whims of Yamamuro, DBS has shown us what animators can do once free'd from him and his designs. You mentioned #130, yet off the cuts that a lot of people are fawning over, Tate and Shida, both are off model.

These new designs are getting nothing but praise from animators and that's the extra added benefit more animators would be willing to participate and join in on the fun so to speak.

In scene's that require it the characters could be more detailed nothing is stopping that from happening, like someone said it's basically at the whims of the animators.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by majinwarman » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:17 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
cuartas wrote:[spoiler]Ok, all this discussion is gonna be sorted out only when the movie airs, it has a fire trial to surpass what ep 130 did that is the best thing Dragon Ball ever produced and yeah, using the designs all of you hate.
If it turns out that this movie isn't WAAAAYYYYY better animated and never show more epicness than the episode, then the all life argument of looser > detailed was pointless.

In any case it shouldn't be that hard to beat an episode in a show with schedule problems right? I wanna see how a serious/angry goku can look without shading, I wanna see how an UI goku can look with those oversimplified designs, and more importantly, I wanna be blown up by this movie, I don't expect less, I really wanna be proven you guys were right all this time.

At the moment my only pros for these designs are the 3 back spikes, no hair highlights, and bouncy goku, I didn't like the roundness, I didn't like the excessive lack of shading, I didn't like the oval face shape, I didn't like that eye closeup that changed the pupil (so generic), I didn't like the movements previous his usual pose (this is not a thing of stiffness or not, it's just that those movements looked excessive, unnecessary and all over the place and hopefully this is just a concept to show how goku moves, and not a future norm to make goku look ridiculous before making a battle pose)[/spoiler]
It seems you are setting up for failure with those expectations. Toei made the decision nobody here did, people are simply giving their reasons as to why Toei did and why they like the change. You holding this to people is kind of ridiculous.

It might not work out, sure but that doesn't necessarily mean everyone was suddenly wrong. ResF had great KA on the film but none of them delivered what they were capable of as they were at the whims of Yamamuro, DBS has shown us what animators can do once free'd from him and his designs. You mentioned #130, yet off the cuts that a lot of people are fawning over, Tate and Shida, both are off model.

These new designs are getting nothing but praise from animators and that's the extra added benefit more animators would be willing to participate and join in on the fun so to speak.

In scene's that require it the characters could be more detailed nothing is stopping that from happening, like someone said it's basically at the whims of the animators.
I think that the new designs would be a benefit to future of Dragon Ball overall so that is one of the reason I like the new designs.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:34 pm

majinwarman wrote: I think that the new designs would be a benefit to future of Dragon Ball overall so that is one of the reason I like the new designs.
Definitely looks like it will. Pokémon is already reaping the benefits from a similar approach and I'm even stomaching TPCi to support the show because it's so much fun.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by cuartas » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:49 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:It seems you are setting up for failure with those expectations. Toei made the decision nobody here did, people are simply giving their reasons as to why Toei did and why they like the change. You holding this to people is kind of ridiculous.

It might not work out, sure but that doesn't necessarily mean everyone was suddenly wrong. ResF had great KA on the film but none of them delivered what they were capable of as they were at the whims of Yamamuro, DBS has shown us what animators can do once free'd from him and his designs. You mentioned #130, yet off the cuts that a lot of people are fawning over, Tate and Shida, both are off model.

These new designs are getting nothing but praise from animators and that's the extra added benefit more animators would be willing to participate and join in on the fun so to speak.

In scene's that require it the characters could be more detailed nothing is stopping that from happening, like someone said it's basically at the whims of the animators.
I'm not setting anything, I clearly stated I want you to prove me wrong that this change isn't bad, but in the right now, I'm choosing 1000's of times Takahashi approach than shintani approach.

130 could be deviated from Yamamuro designs, of course not at all, but they were not far to the point it can be considered looser, not even tate, I saw details on every single frame, on top of that, good animation, so if your point is that they only could do that because they tried to be looser, that's wrong to me in so many levels.

What I don't understand is, for example in the Ajay's video I shared he praised 114 art for his take on Z designs, specially the difference that a more realistic shading that goes with the face proportions can do compared to current Yamamuro approach, but this teaser has absolutely no cheek shading at all, If yamamuro is yet to be criticised for his bland faces what do we say about a design that has no shading at all? is that a selective logic or what?

And that's the thing, if eventually Takahashi, Shida or Karasawa works on that movie, is it good for consistency sake to see a close up of vegeta with 3 layers of shading and ultra detailed shapes, and then 2 minutes later another shot with no shading from another animator, just because the designs allow it?
Or in case they are forced to keep up with the consistency, then there's art talent wasted? how's gonna work out is what I don't understand.

And to finish, if the movie fails, I don't expect you to throw away your all-life argument, but at the very least I expect you to take responsibility for what you stated

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Ajay » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:08 pm

cuartas wrote:What I don't understand is, for example in the Ajay's video I shared he praised 114 art for his take on Z designs, specially the difference that a more realistic shading that goes with the face proportions can do compared to current Yamamuro approach, but this teaser has absolutely no cheek shading at all, If yamamuro is yet to be criticised for his bland faces what do we say about a design that has no shading at all? is that a selective logic or what
Nope, no 'selective logic', just two different approaches. One size doesn't fit all.

With Yamamuro's current designs, they're really just a take on the Boo arc with bizarre changes that have never made any sense to me since they just looked... bad. If you're going to take that route, the changes you make should actually be beneficial, which is something we've seen Takahashi do with his extra layers of shading and exaggerated faces. That feels like a positive evolution of that era. With Yamamuro, he's taken that era, removed the chiseled shading, expressive eyes, and introduced bubbly shading, highlights, and stiff posture that just feel totally at odds with the already iffy construction. It's this unsightly clash of so many elements, and none of it looks good. It's a regression in every way. Like I've said in my videos, if you insist on sticking with that era for Dragon Ball, can we please just take the 'Takahashi approach', or just abandon this ugly style that doesn't feel like anything now.

They've gone with the latter, and that's great since it's been my preference for a while now, as you know. This new design has super naturalistic posture, it's very expressive at its core, and its shading works in tandem with the design. It's also incredibly versatile, so you can change things up without drastically breaking the model sheets a la Tate and Shida in Super. Animators can now work to the best of their abilities without feeling restricted by the designs. In the teaser, we have scenes with no shading, some with lots of shading, some scenes with little detail, some with lots of detail, and it all feels totally congruent from scene to scene. That's the benefit of designs like these; they're so versatile. Ryo Onishi has been on Dragon Ball many times in the past under Yamamuro's designs, and none of them have showcased his absurdly humanistic movement until now. Goku bouncing around for a few seconds showcases so much personality! That's absolutely wonderful and only possible to this extent with these types of designs. You can do anything with these - they're this fun little canvas for animators to work with. It's like someone took the Namek era and brought it into 2018.

I'll totally concede that they're not perfect to me. Personally I'd have preferred a longer jaw and a different approach to the nose and chest area, but that's fairly minimal in the grand scheme of things. It's going to be very interesting to see how Shintani functions as a supervisor. After all, Yamamuro's designs aside, it was his extreme approach to corrections that bothered me the most. I suspect just based on this teaser Shintani's probably going to let animators' personalities shine through properly.

So yeah, to reiterate, no crazy double-standards or cherrypicking criticisms here, it's just that certain designs benefit from x thing, while others need a y approach. Who knows, maybe I'll find issues with the designs once I see other characters, but as it stands, this Goku is pretty much everything I wanted.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:43 pm

FartiliciousManChild wrote:Mother of God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPrSGs2vFAo

I know this is made for a video game and might be using 3d models or be computer generated and stuff (although some parts do look drawn), but goddamn. THIS IS WHAT I WOULD LOVE TO DEATH for a Dragon Ball movie or anime. And yes i'm aware that it's quite likely a totally unrealistic thing to expect/ask from Toei; but in an ideal world, this is what i would consider the most ideal look possible.

The artstyle, the shading, the effects. Everything about it is spot on and absolutely perfect to me. Just woaw. Could you imagine a movie looking similiar to this (especially from 0:56 till 1:17)? That would be the ultimate dream.
I'm glad someone brought this up. That cinematic looks insanely good. It reminds me of the Jojo openings and that new Ninja Batman film. If they were to ever create a CG Dragon Ball show/special/movie, I want it to look just like that. It shits all over the Dragon Ball 4D short films.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by GTx10 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:15 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Name three or five pieces of animation from the last two films that had character acting as solid as this new teaser, please.
If I understand this question right...

Son Goku falling from Lord Kaio's window then rushing up to meet Lord Beerus. This segment highlights Goku's goofy, childlike personality and overall foolishness.

Son Gohan changing into Great Saiyaman and proceeding to pelvis thrust his way into a pose. That whole scene screamed "Gohan is a loveble dork."

Lord Beerus falling from his floating bed and "sleep. Nudging/crawling" toward Whis. This scene highlights how colorful the so called God of Destruction can be.

SSB Vegeta VS Golden Freeza. The whole scene highlighted Vegeta's "I'll beat you quickly and without remorse" mindset towards Freeza.

These scenes are as fluid and show personality just like the new teaser do.

Also AnimeNation101 was the only person to show commentary towards Yamamuro's work. (Granted it was from one source that I am uneasy about it.) Nevertheless I shall give credit where credit is due. Good job 101. Do I think these animators should merely stick to the model sheets and merely do the job they are paid for and spend less time injecting their styles into Dragon Ball? Yes, yes I do.
However I shall sit back and watch what unfolds because I will still watch this movie and enjoy whatever crazy lore Toriyama throws at us. So in conclusion, I like the Yamamuro, Takahashi style (as well as the Dragon Ball original look style) the most because that is what I've come to identity as "high grade DB art" while the Tate and modern style is not to my liking because it looks foreign and rushed to me. Like no care was put into the work.
I don't watch much modern anime so much like Yamamuro who seems to be "a old fart stuck in his ways" I to am a "old fart stuck in his ways." But I like to adhere to tradition so viewpoints, opinions, and all that good stuff.

Also I would like DB to look its best (which I think is the Yamamuro, Takahashi style) but you don't see me clamoring for Tate to get the boot much in the same way many of you are clamoring for Yamamuro to get lost.

Anyway I don't like the new look folks.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:34 pm

At work, so writing on mobile.

Japanese animation has been about experimentation since the beginning. Drawing off model and animating loosely is how the industry grew to acquire its current artistic and commercial success. If the early Touei Douga animators hadn't broken the rules of animation television animation would have died off like US television animation has.

Yashima for instance draws horribly but his role isn't to use up the schedule and tweens, it's to draw simple cuts quickly to save time. He plays a very important role as a result and really is a much bigger asset than Yamamuro and his role up to this point.
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