Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

[MrWalnut4]

Then what does make something look off model? Because that sounds like a very convenient excuse to wave off any criticism of the art in this show.

You're right in that just because it's off model doesn't always necessarily mean it's bad. For example, 114 with Takahashi can technically be considered off model as it didn't really follow any of the character design sheets for Super.

That being said though, it's pretty obvious this isn't a change for the better and it deviates from the other shots of her by different artists. I was actually watching a review on YouTube by a well known DB YouTuber, who normally doesn't pay that much attention to art and animation, and even he said he could immediately notice the difference once the fight started and Kefla started looking... weird.

You can tell the difference between a shot drawn by Tsuji and Ishikawa. That doesn't make either one off-model. Being off model is straying far enough away from the character sheets to be noticeably distracting. You are being needlessly hypercritical because two different animators have different idiosyncrasies when drawing the same character. Not expecting an entire episode to look like it was drawn by one person isn't "hand-waving" art issues.

That's nonsense, and no I'm not being needlessly hypercritical. If something looks bad, it looks bad, and I'm clearly not the only person to notice this issue. Also, something doesn't need to look like ep5 to be considered bad.

Look at the two pictures I linked that were the after/NEP pictures. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure they're drawn by two different people judging by the shape of the eyes, hair shading, hair shape, and mouth size. They're different, yet look similar enough where it's not distracting or jarring. When one picture looks like the character is eight years old and the other picture looks like the character is a grown adult, you can't tell me that's okay and chalk it up to "style differences".

The way she was drawn here is distracting, it is jarring. Like I said, it's not just me, others immediately noticed it too and pointed it out once the fight started. Making an entire episode look like it was drawn by only one person is tough, but that's what they should always be striving for, that sense of consistency to get it as close as possible. This didn't look consistent, and looked more like Goku was all of a sudden fighting a glowing plastic barbie doll instead of a grown, muscular woman.

I noticed the last time I pointed out art for looking terrible because Goku & Vegeta also looked like 8 year olds in certain parts of 106, people were rushing to the artist's defense that time too. They said it was just "style" and I can't criticize it. Well sorry but I will criticize it. The style sucks, and I'd rather have art that makes full grown people look like people and not oompa loompas with gigantic heads, massive eyes, and oddly disproportionate bodies. It almost seems like unless a drawing is episode 5 stick figure tier or episode 24 tier, you can't criticize it for looking bad.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. I just rewatched the portion you are criticizing and it looks completely normal paused and in motion. You would have a point if Kitano was pulling an episode 67 but this is not even close to that. This is run-of-the-mill, decent animation by Super standards. I don't see how you can argue that they, "look like [...] oompa loompas with gigantic heads, massive eyes, and oddly disproportionate bodies" in earnest. Criticize bad art and animation when it occurs by all means, but don't go around claiming generally fine animation is the next bubonic plague and how everyone else is just blissfully ignorant to it.

[Asura]

As I said, it seems nothing can be criticized about this show unless it looks like episode 5. We're not in 2015 anymore, the animation quality has vastly improved, and this is subpar off-model art compared to the stuff we've been getting recently, and I'm not even factoring 114 or the special into that equation. Never did I claim it was the bubonic plague of art or any other kind of metaphor for horrific looking art, and never did I claim everyone is blissfully ignorant of it. Actually I claimed the opposite, because people aren't blissfully ignorant of it and have already pointed it out on YouTube and Reddit.

I will continue to criticize bad art when I see fit. It's not even "bad" art as if the art itself looks horrible though, it just looks off model and a stark contrast to the way everyone else has drawn her. If I'm being taken out of the episode because one of the characters looks different all of a sudden, that's a problem.

[Amir]

Then what does make something look off model? Because that sounds like a very convenient excuse to wave off any criticism of the art in this show.

You're right in that just because it's off model doesn't always necessarily mean it's bad. For example, 114 with Takahashi can technically be considered off model as it didn't really follow any of the character design sheets for Super.

That being said though, it's pretty obvious this isn't a change for the better and it deviates from the other shots of her by different artists. I was actually watching a review on YouTube by a well known DB YouTuber, who normally doesn't pay that much attention to art and animation, and even he said he could immediately notice the difference once the fight started and Kefla started looking... weird.

You can tell the difference between a shot drawn by Tsuji and Ishikawa. That doesn't make either one off-model. Being off model is straying far enough away from the character sheets to be noticeably distracting. You are being needlessly hypercritical because two different animators have different idiosyncrasies when drawing the same character. Not expecting an entire episode to look like it was drawn by one person isn't "hand-waving" art issues.

That's nonsense, and no I'm not being needlessly hypercritical. If something looks bad, it looks bad, and I'm clearly not the only person to notice this issue. Also, something doesn't need to look like ep5 to be considered bad.

Look at the two pictures I linked that were the after/NEP pictures. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure they're drawn by two different people judging by the shape of the eyes, hair shading, hair shape, and mouth size. They're different, yet look similar enough where it's not distracting or jarring. When one picture looks like the character is eight years old and the other picture looks like the character is a grown adult, you can't tell me that's okay and chalk it up to "style differences".

The way she was drawn here is distracting, it is jarring. Like I said, it's not just me, others immediately noticed it too and pointed it out once the fight started. Making an entire episode look like it was drawn by only one person is tough, but that's what they should always be striving for, that sense of consistency to get it as close as possible. This didn't look consistent, and looked more like Goku was all of a sudden fighting a glowing plastic barbie doll instead of a grown, muscular woman.

I noticed the last time I pointed out art for looking terrible because Goku & Vegeta also looked like 8 year olds in certain parts of 106, people were rushing to the artist's defense that time too. They said it was just "style" and I can't criticize it. Well sorry but I will criticize it. The style sucks, and I'd rather have art that makes full grown people look like people and not oompa loompas with gigantic heads, massive eyes, and oddly disproportionate bodies. It almost seems like unless a drawing is episode 5 stick figure tier or episode 24 tier, you can't criticize it for looking bad.

Wait, are you saying this image you posted was bad? I thought it looked great other than the highlights. I don't even know how to respond to such a comment.

[Asura]

Wait, are you saying this image you posted was bad? I thought it looked great other than the highlights. I don't even know how to respond to such a comment.

Not exactly:

It's not even "bad" art as if the art itself looks horrible though, it just looks off model and a stark contrast to the way everyone else has drawn her. If I'm being taken out of the episode because one of the characters looks different all of a sudden, that's a problem.

I understand that the way I've worded some of my posts come off as me thinking the art is drawn poorly. It's more or less that the "style" (if you want to use that term) of the art looks terrible in my opinion and stands out too much compared to how other animators have drawn her.

[cuartas]

I understand that the way I've worded some of my posts come off as me thinking the art is drawn poorly. It's more or less that the "style" (if you want to use that term) of the art looks terrible in my opinion and stands out too much compared to how other animators have drawn her.

Dude, have you even seen yashima or tate episodes? there you have loads of reasons to complain about off model shots, but 115 is far to be ridiculously deviated from the sheets as you mention

[Asura]

I understand that the way I've worded some of my posts come off as me thinking the art is drawn poorly. It's more or less that the "style" (if you want to use that term) of the art looks terrible in my opinion and stands out too much compared to how other animators have drawn her.

Dude, have you even seen yashima or tate episodes? there you have loads of reasons to complain about off model shots, but 115 is far to be ridiculously deviated from the sheets as you mention

Like I said before, something does not need to be looking like stick figures to be considered off model. It's not like there's only one strict definition of what off model looks like. She looks like she came out of Yu-Gi-Oh here. I can't remember who said that but I definitely remember hearing that from someone.

I look forward to next episode when Kefla looks absolutely nothing like this to add even further proof as to how she's off model here.

[YukihiroKitanoLover]

They will uptade to episode 115?

[Amir]

Still can't see how it's off model, I guess I don't have the skilled eye to identify this lmao.

[iAnimationLover_]

I understand that the way I've worded some of my posts come off as me thinking the art is drawn poorly. It's more or less that the "style" (if you want to use that term) of the art looks terrible in my opinion and stands out too much compared to how other animators have drawn her.

Dude, have you even seen yashima or tate episodes? there you have loads of reasons to complain about off model shots, but 115 is far to be ridiculously deviated from the sheets as you mention

Like I said before, something does not need to be looking like stick figures to be considered off model. It's not like there's only one strict definition of what off model looks like. She looks like she came out of Yu-Gi-Oh here. I can't remember who said that but I definitely remember hearing that from someone.

I look forward to next episode when Kefla looks absolutely nothing like this to add even further proof as to how she's off model here.

Do you even have her model? No. So you cant even really say she's "off model". And there is really nothing about that shot you linked that "stands out" it was literally there for at the very most 3 seconds.

[ADdictedHD]

I will continue to criticize bad art when I see fit. It's not even "bad" art as if the art itself looks horrible though, it just looks off model and a stark contrast to the way everyone else has drawn her. If I'm being taken out of the episode because one of the characters looks different all of a sudden, that's a problem.

criticism is fine. criticism is good. what's not criticism, however, is using the buzzword "off model" whenever you see a shot you don't like. since we have all yet to see kafla's actual model sheet, there is no true reference for what she aught to look like, so that alone cannot be leveled as a criticism. preferring one shot to another is understandable, but that does not make the one you prefer objectively better nor the other objectively worse. If the construction of the drawing is broken in some way or the proportions skewed (and so on), It is fair to criticize it for those reasons, but a different hand, from a different angle, drawing in a different style is totally ordinary and not worthy of any criticism.

This has been a topic of this thread since its inception and i doubt it will ever end, but the main point is, different people draw with different styles, it alone doesn't make them better or worse artists than others. as much as i prefer shida's art to tu yong-ce's (for example) there isn't a whole lot of objective reasoning behind that, after the base construction of the drawing it really just comes down to style and it's something you're either going to have to learn to appreciate like I do or simply ignore, since there's basically no such thing as stylistic consistency in dragon ball super.

[Asura]

I don't need to see her model sheet to know that this was off model. Why? Because every other artist that's drawn her so far looks nothing like this. And no, it was not "at most 3 seconds", it was the entire duration of the second half fight up until Goku goes UI.

It's not a buzzword, and you're not going to convince me that this doesn't look different compared to other shots. The real buzzword here is "style" which can be conveniently used to ignore any and all criticism about how art looks like. For example, Tate likes to draw stick figures that move in very fast motion. Whenever he is criticized for his art being off model since they're literally undetailed stick figures a lot of the time, people get angry and say it's just "his style" and how it's not fair to criticize him. Luckily, Tate makes up for his lack of on-model detailed shots with good and fluid animation instead. Not every artist has that luxury to fall back on, however.

But Tate's drawings are still going to look like shit sometimes, and saying it's "just his style" won't excuse the way it looks. Saying that the simplistic, off model, and bad drawings are balanced out by his great animation is a valid argument, but just saying "it's his style it's perfectly fine there's nothing wrong with how it looks in terms of art cause everyone has their own style" is silly to say.

I know people are desperate to defend the animators because they've been unfairly criticized in the past due to Super's rough start and so people feel a need to defend any and all criticism directed at them still, but cmon. If something looks off, it looks off.

[iAnimationLover_]

I don't need to see her model sheet to know that this was off model. Why? Because every other artist that's drawn her so far looks nothing like this. And no, it was not "at most 3 seconds", it was the entire duration of the second half fight up until Goku goes UI.

It's not a buzzword, and you're not going to convince me that this doesn't look different compared to other shots. The real buzzword here is "style" which can be conveniently used to ignore any and all criticism about how art looks like. For example, Tate likes to draw stick figures that move in very fast motion. Whenever he is criticized for his art being off model since they're literally undetailed stick figures a lot of the time, people get angry and say it's just "his style" and how it's not fair to criticize him. Luckily, Tate makes up for his lack of on-model detailed shots with good and fluid animation instead. Not every artist has that luxury to fall back on, however.

But Tate's drawings are still going to look like shit sometimes, and saying it's "just his style" won't excuse the way it looks. Saying that the simplistic, off model, and bad drawings are balanced out by his great animation is a valid argument, but just saying "it's his style it's perfectly fine there's nothing wrong with how it looks in terms of art cause everyone has their own style" is silly to say.

I know people are desperate to defend the animators because they've been unfairly criticized in the past due to Super's rough start and so people feel a need to defend any and all criticism directed at them still, but cmon. If something looks off, it looks off.

Is this your first time watching a dragon ball super episode? There have been many instances for the entire run of super where everyone has looked off model, sometimes for entire episodes. I find it weird that youre complaining about how a character "off model" now, and when you dont even have the model sheets for said character.

And Kafla looks fine, and if you dont like it, thats also fine. Drop the subject, its not getting you or us anywhere.

[Amir]

I find it so ridiculous you are trying to criticize a shot that looks good and call it off model. You are probably the only one who thinks that way, the problem is you, not that image you are ''criticizing''.
I can confidently say after looking at that image again that it looks very on model and not different at all from the other Kefla shots in ep115. I can't even take you seriously when you say something like that. It's the exact same thing as saying Goku's kaioken scream in episode 39 was off model.

Also, no. We are not desperate to defend animators or any of that bullshit, if something that actually looks fine and consistent in comparison to the rest of the episode for like 2 seconds looks off only to you and you consider that something so notable that stands out and the rest can't even see where you are coming from, then the only 'off' thing here is your observation.

I can't but think to myself 'what in the world is this guy talking about?'

[MegaBossMan]

I find it so ridiculous you are trying to criticize a shot that looks good and call it off model. You are probably the only one who thinks that way, the problem is you, not that image you are ''criticizing''.
I can confidently say after looking at that image again that it looks very on model and not different at all from the other Kefla shots in ep115. I can't even take you seriously when you say something like that. It's the exact same thing as saying Goku's kaioken scream in episode 39 was off model.

Hi, sorry, I've been observing the discussion that's been taking place in the Animation Catalogue here, and I'd have to disagree with the point you've made; from my own subjective experience, the shots of Kefla that follow in the 2nd half of the episode don't seem to manage to stay consistent with Kefla's visual appearance in the other portions of the episode. It's definitely a fair argument to state that each animator obviously has their own ways of drawing and animating their characters, but the Kefla portion brought up never really seems to mesh well with how the other animators drew the character. Putting aside the fact I think the shot's poorly-drawn because of how much it adheres to the worst aspects of Super's model sheet, it's also visually off-putting because the art isn't necessarily consistent with the other shots of her. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing, and the earlier episodes of Super had much, much worse, but I don't think this Kefla matches up quite well, and frankly, in this situation it's for the worse. Seeing how acceptable Kefla was drawn in the last portion of episode 114 and most of 115, and then seeing these sort of shots really doesn't make it seem like Kefla is properly drawn to standards, and more so not even interestingly drawn.

[Asura]

I find it so ridiculous you are trying to criticize a shot that looks good and call it off model. You are probably the only one who thinks that way, the problem is you, not that image you are ''criticizing''.
I can confidently say after looking at that image again that it looks very on model and not different at all from the other Kefla shots in ep115. I can't even take you seriously when you say something like that. It's the exact same thing as saying Goku's kaioken scream in episode 39 was off model.

Hi, sorry, I've been observing the discussion that's been taking place in the Animation Catalogue here, and I'd have to disagree with the point you've made; from my own subjective experience, the shots of Kefla that follow in the 2nd half of the episode don't seem to manage to stay consistent with Kefla's visual appearance in the other portions of the episode. It's definitely a fair argument to state that each animator obviously has their own ways of drawing and animating their characters, but the Kefla portion brought up never really seems to mesh well with how the other animators drew the character. Putting aside the fact I think the shot's poorly-drawn because of how much it adheres to the worst aspects of Super's model sheet, it's also visually off-putting because the art isn't necessarily consistent with the other shots of her. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing, and the earlier episodes of Super had much, much worse, but I don't think this Kefla matches up quite well, and frankly, in this situation it's for the worse. Seeing how acceptable Kefla was drawn in the last portion of episode 114 and most of 115, and then seeing these sort of shots really doesn't make it seem like Kefla is properly drawn to standards, and more so not even interestingly drawn.

Yes, thank you. This is exactly what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying ohh my godd it's episode 5 all over again! It's just visually offputting when there's not a strong sense of consistency. Obviously you can't be 100% consistent between different artists, but the idea is to get as close as possible so they can blend from one scene to the other. This doesn't blend, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

It's just like this picture of Caulifla sticks out like a sore thumb because it looks nothing like any other drawing of Caulifla we've seen and she's never drawn like this again:

[spoiler]

In comparison, same episode:



Here's Caulifla from 113:



And hey whaddya know, it's not a perfect match compared to that other picture, but it's consistent enough where it can blend. The eyes are the same shape, face is the same shape, hair is quite similar, and the proportions seem to both be in check. That first picture can't blend with anything, it looks nothing like the other two pictures, she looks like a completely different person. This is exactly how I feel with Kefla and I guarantee the same thing is going to happen with Kefla where she won't look like that again (just like we never see that first picture's weird design of Caulifla again)[/spoiler]

I find it so ridiculous you are trying to criticize a shot that looks good and call it off model. You are probably the only one who thinks that way, the problem is you, not that image you are ''criticizing''.
I can confidently say after looking at that image again that it looks very on model and not different at all from the other Kefla shots in ep115. I can't even take you seriously when you say something like that. It's the exact same thing as saying Goku's kaioken scream in episode 39 was off model.

Hi, sorry, I've been observing the discussion that's been taking place in the Animation Catalogue here, and I'd have to disagree with the point you've made; from my own subjective experience, the shots of Kefla that follow in the 2nd half of the episode don't seem to manage to stay consistent with Kefla's visual appearance in the other portions of the episode. It's definitely a fair argument to state that each animator obviously has their own ways of drawing and animating their characters, but the Kefla portion brought up never really seems to mesh well with how the other animators drew the character. Putting aside the fact I think the shot's poorly-drawn because of how much it adheres to the worst aspects of Super's model sheet, it's also visually off-putting because the art isn't necessarily consistent with the other shots of her. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing, and the earlier episodes of Super had much, much worse, but I don't think this Kefla matches up quite well, and frankly, in this situation it's for the worse. Seeing how acceptable Kefla was drawn in the last portion of episode 114 and most of 115, and then seeing these sort of shots really doesn't make it seem like Kefla is properly drawn to standards, and more so not even interestingly drawn.

So I guess I shouldn't have said that he was the only one to have that opinion. Sorry about that. Also the second half of the episode is when she is at her SSJ form, which looks different than her base form, so I don't know which shots of Kefla you are referring to that look inconsistent. Nonetheless, him saying it's ''of model'' is still not true, him saying that particular image of SSJ Kefla stands out from the rest of her shots in the episode is still not true. There are some bad Kitano shots of SSJ Kefla in this episode, but the one he posted was not one of them.

Kefla in her SSJ form looked pretty much the same in the entire episode except the bad Kitano shots of course.

She transforms into her SSJ form at the end of the first half, then Kitano's Kefla is visible for the entire fight up until Goku goes into UI, and you can very clearly see the change with her proportions and her face. The shots we saw from her in the NEP also look like the shots from the end of this episode, and not like Kitano's Kefla.

Like honestly if you look at these two pictures, one from the Kitano fight and this other one from the NEP, it literally looks like Kid Kefla and Adult Kefla. If a character is going from looking like a kid to an adult, that is jarring as fuck.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

But listen, I think you're misunderstanding me because I am not complaining about just a certain particular image (although yes, the discussion started from me posting an image, but it was meant to be a representation of how she looked the entire fight, since she did look like that the entire fight) I am complaining about how she was drawn for most of the fight and how she looks like a chibi version of herself compared to how she just looked in her base form (and how she looks before the fight starts and after it and NEP)

[Amir]

I think I finally understand what you guys were talking about. Kefla in the second half looks obviously different than how she looks after Goku goes UI or before turning SSJ. All this time I was arguing about that particular Kefla shot Asura posted not looking any different than how she looks in the entire second half. So I guess you don't like how Kefla looks in the entire second half as a SSJ, in that case it is off model. With that said I disagree that it looks bad or inferior at all. Other than the bad Kitano art and highlights, in the second half Kefla looked consistent and pretty fine tbh.

Edit: I've just read your post after posting. You beat me to it lmao.

[Asura]

I think I finally understand what you guys were talking about. Kefla in the second half looks obviously different than how she looks after Goku goes UI or before turning SSJ. All this time I was arguing about that particular Kefla shot Asura posted not looking any different than how she looks in the entire second half. So I guess you don't like how Kefla looks in the entire second half as a SSJ, in that case it is off model. With that said I disagree that it looks bad or inferior at all. Other than the bad Kitano art and highlights, in the second half Kefla looked consistent and pretty fine tbh.

Okay, good. I'm glad we got that misunderstanding out of the way.

It looked consistent in terms of the fight, yes, since it was all Kitano, but my point is it's inconsistent with how she looks after Goku goes UI or before turning SSJ like you pointed out. If base Kefla looked like this from the start, I wouldn't like it but I wouldn't consider it off model since she'd look like she does in base when she goes SSJ. Problem is that when she's fighting in SSJ she starts looking way different to her base form and how she's drawn in the NEP and after the fight, which is where my complaint stems from.


EDIT: Also maybe I should put "If there's a misunderstanding, it's probably my fault" in my signature since apparently I don't have a way with words

[Noah]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's just me or energy attacks like this lacks impact in the show?

[Asura]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's just me or energy attacks like this lacks impact in the show?

I feel like it has a lot to do with the stance and facial expression, but the fact that it's just a red ball and there's no lights being emitted and being reflected off of Kefla makes it look very lackluster. It's just not very exciting to look at.

This on the other hand, this looks like it'll have the impact of Santa's sleigh demolishing and decimating the entire arena:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

The shadows and highlights are really nice, as if the ki blasts are emitting so much light and energy, and I think that helps to show there's a lot of power behind the attack.

[Lord Beerus]

Preview images of Episode 116:
[spoiler]





[/spoiler]