How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

[Lord Beerus]

Gotenks learning SS3 in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber was no big surprise. Goten & Trunks weren't even ten years old and already capable of SSj with minimal training. There fusion was extremely powerful (because fusion, duh), and with weeks of training and there obvious interest in Goku showing them SS3 before he leaves back to Otherworld... Duh?

For the record, Goku never shows Goten and Trunks the SSJ3 transformation in the manga. That moment was pure anime filler. No in-universe explanation is ever given as to how you can become a SSJ3.

[FireFly]

SSJ3 is a garbage asspull. Its entire existence just hinges on Toriyama not wanting to draw out a near death confrontation between Goku and Fat Boo just to distract him, and thus going against every prior indication of Goku's full power that came straight out of his own mouth solely to wank him to another level. It'd be as if Freeza after being beaten down at 100% reveals he can access 200% for a minute instead of whatever he has just at a greater cost to handily defeat Goku.

Trunks' asspulls just happen for him whenever he needs to be plot relevant which is quite often, and he even just finds himself thrown into relevance despite being fodder minutes before for no reason as well. Z and DB's asspulls were still bad, but Trunks' are even worse due to how often he pulls them and how convenient it is for him to do it in the first place.

I really don't think GT has any room to talk though, on the subject of asspulls - #17 defeating Trunks with ease prior to fusing is just laughable and so is just about every power up Goku experienced in that series.

[NintendoBlaze53]

It's not MY definition. It's the commonly accepted definition. An asspull/Deus Ex Machina is something that appears out of nowhere to further the plot, or help a character win against impossible odds.

And I was SAYING that the rules of the world setup what is and isn't a Deus Ex Asspull. In Fullmetal Alchemist we KNOW the rules of Alchemy. We know you can construct literally anything out of it. The writing sets this up and that's what makes it a great bloody anime. Hisoka having Bungee Gum isn't an asspull cause it's an established rule of the lore that Nen can create objects like that.

Where the hell did we already know that he couldn't use SSj3 against Buu? Putting aside any knowledge of DB SSj3 comes out of bloody nowhere with no established lore like SSj1 and SSj2 got.

SSJ3 doesn't make that much sense especially since its not activated by rage it seems. However, at least we kind of know what it is. Goku explains it to us. Its the stage beyond SSJ2. Trunks' new powerup gets no explanation at all. Trunks doesn't explain and neither does anyone else.
Gotenks learned SSJ3 from watching Goku do it. Remember they were at Kami's lookout and Goten + Trunks asked to see Goku perform SSJ3? Thats how Gotenks knows it.

SSJ Blue is incredibly lazy and is also unexplained and out of nowhere. Vegeta especially, so I guess he learned the ritual to be SSJG off screen and then can also do SSJB all of a sudden? ok.

The spirit bomb sword also gets no explanation whatsoever and theres no indication how Trunks ever learned that.

I just hate that Super doesn't even both explaining anything. DBZ had random powerups but they were kind of explained. DBS gets no explanation at all.

Goten and Trunks seeing it is filler. And I've said on past pages that SSjBlue and SSj Ikari are explained on their design rather then exposition. SSj Blus IS explained. "This is a Super Saiyan God with the power of a Super Saiyan" What's hard to understand there? The hair even explains it with God having base Goku's hair and Blue having SSj Goku's hair.

Trunk's Ikari sees his muscles go big like SSj Grade 3 before a god ki shrinks them and conserves his ki which is a known effect of SSj Blue. The forms are explained. How they were achieved is not and that is a major flaw of Super. Vegeta achieving it excuses Trunks being able to do the same due to his bloodline, but how the hell did Vegeta do it in the first place.

And it seems the manga is setting up to Trunks being told about the Genki Dama by Gohan if him knowing Taiyo-Ken is any indication.

[The Monkey King]

I'm just gonna copy and paste what I wrote in my own thread about the bullshit of DBS Trunks

I personally think that Future Trunks was written awfully in the 2nd half of this arc and is an emabrresment to Toriyama's original manga series and character.

For me the turning point was when he managed to give SSJB Goku ample back up when they fought SSJR Black and Zamasu.
How? Just how?? This was the same Trunks who got his shit kicked in by base Black, did no training in the past (getting his ass kicked by Vegeta isn't training) came back and can now fight on par with SSJB Goku and take a SSJR Kamehameha along side him.
Some tried to explain it away as a rage boost. Again this doesn't make any sense. Trunks saw Black kill his mother and "kill" Mai if Trunks getting stronger by rage was an established thing it would've been shown during his fight with base Black.
Conclusion: Poor writing.

And then we have Trunks' new transformation. Sure I was hype as everyone else when I saw it but... What the hell is it? Is it SSJB? if so how? Vegeta had to train with Whis, then train with Goku for months in order to achieve the SSJB transformation and Trunks achieves a similar transformation out of nowhere. The form is somewhat reminiscent of when Gohan first went SSJ2 in the anime where he bulked up like SSJ Grade 3 then his muscles slimmed back down. But yeah I'm still not getting it, no one commented on it and now that the fight's over I doubt anyone will.
Conclusion: Poor writing.

Then we have the new techniques Trunks had learned. The 1st few I really liked, the Masenko was a nice nod to the fact he was trained by Gohan, The ki beam slashes from his sword was a move that I thought seemed cool and logical from DBZ games so it was nice to see Trunks use it in the anime, then we have the Final Flash, I felt like the writers were pushing it just a tad but Trunks did see the Final Flash with his own eyes and saw just how powerful the technique was so it made sense that he picked it up.
Conclusion: Good writing.

But then things started to go pear shaped again. Let's start with the smallest offender the Galick Gun. Trunks has never seen Vegeta use it and it seems to be inferior to the Final Flash so why bother? But we did see Vegeta teaching it to Trunks in the eye catcher so are those canon now..? lol.
Following from there we have Trunks learning the Mafuba in 5 minutes when it took Goku a whole day to learn. To put it simply Trunks is not a fighting prodigy like Goku, this was established in the Cell saga when Trunks developed the bulky and useless SSJ Grade 3 form while Goku decided mastering the SSJ form made the most sense. This clealy showed that when it comes to techniques Goku and Trunks are miles apart.
But then again the plot needed to move forward sooo yeah I can kinda look past it.
Conclusion: Confusing writing.

Then we have what I would say is the biggest offender of all: Trunks using the Spirit Bomb better than Goku ever has then somehow fucking channelled it into his sword. Seriously what the actual fuck was that!? Trunks has never seen or heard of the Spirit Bomb (then again Future Gohan could've told him about it). Goku had to train for months with the actual creator of the Spirit Bomb in order to perfect the technique.
Even so using it had multiple downsides: long charge time, user has to stay stationary with his hands up, sentient beings have to willingly give up their genki for the attack to gain power.
Using the Spirit Bomb has always been a risky last resort for Goku to use that left viewers (or readers) on the edge of their seats.
But not for Trunks did it have a long charge time? Nope it only took a few seconds, did Trunks have the concentrate with his hands up to charge it? Nope he wasn't even aware of what was happening it. Did the remaining populace willingly donate genki? Nah it's Trunks time you better give up that genki whethere you want to or not.
Conclusion: Horrible writing.

Trunks coming back to Dragon Ball with blue hair irked me enough but the writers had to turn him into a Gary Stue I know people like to throw around the term Mary Sue/Gary Stue as a means of exaggeration but objectively speaking that's what Trunks was for the 2nd half of the arc.

They ruined him, they fucking ruined him. I liked Trunks because although he was a badass super saiyan his human side was also very prevalent which made him a flawed but relate-able character. He didn't get any bullshit power up to save Vegeta from #18, he let his emotions cloud his better judgement and got his ass kicked for it.
When developing a new SSJ form to fight Cell in his naivety he thought more power = better and so used the SSJ Grade 3 form in battle when Vegeta and Goku knew better. And once again he got his ass kicked and embarrassed for it, even at that to attain said useless form Trunks had to train his ass off in the ROSAT for a whole damn year. When he got his sword got broken by #18 did he make a new giant ki saber to cut the androids in 2? No he had to adapt to the situation and resort to fighting via hand-to hand combat.

[NintendoBlaze53]

I'm just gonna copy and paste what I wrote in my own thread about the bullshit of DBS Trunks
Trunks coming back to Dragon Ball with blue hair irked me enough but the writers had to turn him into a Gary Stue I know people like to throw around the term Mary Sue/Gary Stue as a means of exaggeration but objectively speaking that's what Trunks was for the 2nd half of the arc.

They ruined him, they fucking ruined him. I liked Trunks because although he was a badass super saiyan his human side was also very prevalent which made him a flawed but relate-able character. He didn't get any bullshit power up to save Vegeta from #18, he let his emotions cloud his better judgement and got his ass kicked for it.
When developing a new SSJ form to fight Cell in his naivety he thought more power = better and so used the SSJ Grade 3 form in battle when Vegeta and Goku knew better. And once again he got his ass kicked and embarrassed for it, even at that to attain said useless form Trunks had to train his ass off in the ROSAT for a whole damn year. When he got his sword got broken by #18 did he make a new giant ki saber to cut the androids in 2? No he had to adapt to the situation and resort to fighting via hand-to hand combat.

Being honest I pretty much agree with most of what you said on the Goku Black Arc's writing with Trunks. The production should have been way better, but the quality of production in writing for shonen has been awful as of late, One Piece, Naruto and Yu-Gi-Oh! Arc-V have all suffered horrible production issues that make you wonder what the shows staff are even thinking.

What I don't agree is Trunks being a Gary Stue, mainly cause I hate the term, Trunks in the second have is a walking plot device/Deus Ex Machina. Pretty sure Gary Stue is a character who can do now wrong and we saw Trunks do PLENTY of that. To compare him, he's this arc's Sasuke from Naruto or Kirito from SAO, he's fan fulfillment. His power ups and feats are all to go towards his fans that gobble up the power scaling debate. However, Trunks as a character was bloody brilliant in this arc. Ignore fighting, which is hard in a shonen I know, Trunks character arc in tandem to his arc in Z was spectacular writing for Dragon Ball. His meeting with other characters and relationships with Mai and Vegeta and Bulma. As screwed up as the form was, Black/Zamasu's torment of Trunks before Ikari was triggered encompass his character and makes him unique to Dragon Ball.

His character is similar to that of Okabe from Steins;Gate, he's running through time trying desperately to figure out a solution and the fear of that he's doing worse hits him when he becomes Ikari. From there onward he became kinda standard shonen protagonist/fan appeal character. Until Episode 67. I only pray the bloody manga fixes Ikari and Hope Sword to give them somewhat of an explanation, like how Rose' is now explained.

[SaiyanZ]

It's not MY definition. It's the commonly accepted definition. An asspull/Deus Ex Machina is something that appears out of nowhere to further the plot, or help a character win against impossible odds.

And I was SAYING that the rules of the world setup what is and isn't a Deus Ex Asspull. In Fullmetal Alchemist we KNOW the rules of Alchemy. We know you can construct literally anything out of it. The writing sets this up and that's what makes it a great bloody anime. Hisoka having Bungee Gum isn't an asspull cause it's an established rule of the lore that Nen can create objects like that.

Where the hell did we already know that he couldn't use SSj3 against Buu? Putting aside any knowledge of DB SSj3 comes out of bloody nowhere with no established lore like SSj1 and SSj2 got.

We know the rules of getting SSj and we know how ki can be utilized. Thus it isn't an asspull. If we use the definition you just said, then everything I said earlier is an asspull. Established rules/knowing the rules of the world like with alchemy or Nen is just as the same with ki, we know how it works and what can be done. Piccolo can summon a clothes beam attack, it can be used to heal people, you can transfer it to people etc. Its the same exact thing. SSj3 not being foreshadowed and not being explicitly or exactly explained doesn't make it an asspull.

[NintendoBlaze53]

It's not MY definition. It's the commonly accepted definition. An asspull/Deus Ex Machina is something that appears out of nowhere to further the plot, or help a character win against impossible odds.

And I was SAYING that the rules of the world setup what is and isn't a Deus Ex Asspull. In Fullmetal Alchemist we KNOW the rules of Alchemy. We know you can construct literally anything out of it. The writing sets this up and that's what makes it a great bloody anime. Hisoka having Bungee Gum isn't an asspull cause it's an established rule of the lore that Nen can create objects like that.

Where the hell did we already know that he couldn't use SSj3 against Buu? Putting aside any knowledge of DB SSj3 comes out of bloody nowhere with no established lore like SSj1 and SSj2 got.

We know the rules of getting SSj and we know how ki can be utilized. Thus it isn't an asspull. If we use the definition you just said, then everything I said earlier is an asspull. Established rules/knowing the rules of the world like with alchemy or Nen is just as the same with ki, we know how it works and what can be done. Piccolo can summon a clothes beam attack, it can be used to heal people, you can transfer it to people etc. Its the same exact thing. SSj3 not being foreshadowed and not being explicitly or exactly explained doesn't make it an asspull.

But SSj3 isn't a ki based technique. It's bloodline based. The rules and lore of SSj were established. Saying you can go "double ascended" is against the established lore up to that point. Where as rage boost, while Trunks doesn't get them, are an established part of Half Saiyan bloodline and even making Ki weapons like blade are established.

[SaiyanZ]

But SSj3 isn't a ki based technique. It's bloodline based. The rules and lore of SSj were established. Saying you can go "double ascended" is against the established lore up to that point. Where as rage boost, while Trunks doesn't get them, are an established part of Half Saiyan bloodline and even making Ki weapons like blade are established.

No, it isn't. Unless you were Goten or Trunks, no one has ever inherited SSj because of their blood, it was achieved because of rage and sufficient training.

[z_cherub]

Super Saiyan FU (Ikari) IS just as bad as SS3 and the Ultimate state for its randomness but at least 3 and Ultimate have some kind of explanation for them in-universe or in supplementary material, Ikari has nothing and probably will never get anything of the sort.

The Spirt Sword is also total horse shit, yes it is very fitting for Trunks to do so but unlike other stories I've seen where the thematic pay off comes at the expense of consistency, the arc we've got isn't good enough to warrant the leeway for this case.

This is really all that needs to be said. I'm not mad because it's a weak set up like the asspulls in Z, I'm mad because there was NO set up.

[DeadPoolSpace]

Because Goku and Gohan earn their moments. Goku losing Krillin and Gohan not being able to save 16 made them angry enough to reach the power that they needed. I'm sorry but what Trunks did doesn't resonate. Oh Black and Zamasu mocked him so thats how he became an SSR (the whole name is also dumb as hell and still makes no sense). Oh Bulma got hurt and that cause his PTSD and suddenly mastered the Mafuba where it took Goku a day to master. And the less I talk about his moment where he cut Zamasu in half the better

The importance of the mockery that Black and Zamasu did towards Future Trunks runs far deeper than people realise. They were essentially blaming him for everything that went wrong with Android and Cell arc and basically belittling him for taking a desperate course of action to save his world by using time travel instead of just letting Goku from the Heart Virus and effectively prevent anything about the Zamasu arc happening. They were basically making Future Trunks feel like the worst person in history because he wanted protect what was left of humanity in his timeline and in the process making it seem as though every person that had died in his timeline was all his fault because he being selfish. Future Trunks was being made to feel great guilt just for his existence. That's what drove Future Trunks to his breaking point. He'll be damned if he's gonna be made out the be the villain for trying to save his world and have all the mortals that Goku Black slaughtered in his timeline feel like it rest on his shoulders when there was nothing he could do about that.

Goku earned his moments, even though SSJ3 is a huge asspull, but Gohan sure as hell didn't after getting his potential unlocked the first time on Namek. His SSJ2 moment was horribly contrived, horribly built up and horribly executed. Gohan sits out 95% percent of the Android/Cell arc, and when he does take an active role in it, he suddenly develops this pacifist nature to add more "drama" to the battle and lead a contrived moment. And may I remind you, this pacifist characteristic is never brought again after this arc. So Gohan just suddenly had a change of conviction with barely any build-up to it, that lead to a moment that had even less build up to it, for a payoff of a trait that was throw in a once or twice in every arc prior to Gohan's battle against Cell. I mean, what relationship does Gohan have with Cell that supposed to make the feeling of Cell being brought down a peg by him feel so cathartic or satisfying? That fact that Cell crushed 16 head? That moment means nothing because Gohan barely know who the fuck Android 16 was beyond the fact he was built to kill Goku. He of all people shouldn't be the trigger for Gohan's SSJ2 moment because there is no emotional connection between the two of them. If Toriyama spent more time developing #16's character and building a more believable relationship between Gohan and #16, the moment Gohan became a SSJ2 for the first time would have been perfect.

Remember Gohan's reaction after Piccolo died saving his life? That was emotional because Gohan at least got the chance to build a relationship with Piccolo to make the moment he died feel more relatable, genuine and powerful. Gohan was watching his family and friends he trained and grew up with getting beaten to death and it doesn't affect him other than making him grit his teeth harder. Yet a random Android that Gohan that doesn't know on any other level, other than he cares for all living beings on life, a viewpoint all of the Z-Fighters, excluding Vegeta, at that time also shared, dies in front of him and suddenly that makes Gohan snap and go over the edge? Nah. That's not good enough for me. I always feel that proper relationship needed to be built between the two characters to justify Gohan reacting the way he did when #16 was killed. It just helps the moment feel more raw and believable. Like when Goku became SSJ for the first time. You knew prior to that moment just how much Goku's friendship with Krillin meant to him because of how close they were depicted to be and how the reacted to each other death's the first time round. To me, it just felt like Toriyama needed an excuse for Gohan to become stronger and defeat Cell and he threw in that speech from #16 just so that the moment could happen. All we knew about #16 prior to moment is that kinda liked birds. That's it. Hell, didn't #16 state he would still kill Goku if they were successful in defeating Cell? So that whole "#16 cares about all living things" characteristic feel incredibly contrived.

And don't even me started on the shit that happened in the Majin Boo arc. Ultimate/Mystic/Super was just fucking lazy. The most blatant case of character getting a power to keep him relevant in the plot. Made even worse by the fact that Gohan never trained after the Cell arc. He just sits on his ass and he goes from getting one-shotted by Majin Boo to kicking Super Boo ass without even trying. Fuck that nonsense. Gohan just became a walking plot device by that stage. Super is just as bad with this, but people tend to forget how bad the original story was when it came to handing out power-up and new form for the convenience of the plot.

Congratulations Lord Beerus you've just lost more brain cells writing this nonsense.

You are a hypocrite for praising Trunks none explainitory asspulls and critisizing Gohan's properly explained ones and judging by your comment you've never watched DBZ you just started the series by watching Super then read about DBZ on Wikia that is the only explaination for your amount of stupidity and hypocrisy all shaped in the form of your childish fanboyism.

You called Gohans namek boost asspulls yet it's been explained since the fight with Raditz his potential even then it didn't go so far as to transforming him into the next stage until near the end of the Cell Saga which was what all the build up went for. Every time Gohan had rage boost they were only done briefly before dissappearing.

Lord Beerus I suggest you watch DBZ instead of borrowing others opinion or using your lack of proper information. I cannot believe you are using Trunks emotions and characterization to explain him jumping from SS2 to God Ki I don't know if you're in love with Trunks and letting your tainted thoughts cloud your judgment but you seem ignorant over the fact that Gohan jumping from weak SS2 to greater than SS3 made sense because Gohan needed the elder Kai to help him unlock his abilities it may be an ass pull but nowhere near Trunks going from Mortal to God in far less time than Gohan hell even Goku did when they trained.

Lord Beerus explain to be why we should critisize Gohan's training with his dad Goku to earn Super Saiyan 2 yet not critisize even praise Trunks for gaining a transformation that makes you be comparable to Gods that took Goku and Vegeta to train to gain God ki. Goku and Vegeta had to be trained by Gods with God ki for an extensive time to get where they are yet Trunks never did any of the training they had nor did he even earn God ki and you think it's not an asspull and is more acceptable than Gohan who was built up for being a character with inner potential more than any of the other Z Fighters. Atleast Gohan had help or had training to earn his transformations all Trunks did was get his ass beat by his dad Vegeta. Do I even have to explain Trunks pulling the Spirit Sword out of his ass with much less than half the worlds population. In DBZ it took the whole world and more to kill Planetary destroyer Kid Buu even then it was tough but the Spirit Bomb comes out of nowhere and Trunks having never trained in the Spirit Bomb ever in his entire life suddenly knows what to do with the random ball of power and put it into his sword and takes out Merged Zamasu who makes Kid Buu look like nothing considering he's a God.

Again rewatch DBZ Trunks never had any hidden potential or rage boosts yet in Super he's suddenly more powerful than Goku. That is not Trunks character and I find your ignorance and fanboyism offensive to the minds of people who actually pay attention to the show and understand the logic behind DBZ and how the power levels work.

[Cetra]

snip

You have just answered an ancient post in a thread that was last used 15 months ago.

[Logania]

Holy crap, this thread got a senzu bean.

I find your ignorance and fanboyism offensive to the minds of people who actually pay attention to the show and understand the logic behind DBZ and how the power levels work.

>Logic

>Power Levels

You gotta pick one, bro. Not even Toriyama understands or cares about it.

[OLKv3]

Holy crap, this thread got a senzu bean.

I find your ignorance and fanboyism offensive to the minds of people who actually pay attention to the show and understand the logic behind DBZ and how the power levels work.

>Logic

>Power Levels

You gotta pick one, bro. Not even Toriyama understands or cares about it.

Toriyama does care about power scaling though, he always explained where characters stood next to each other in regards to power rankings. Oddly enough, it was the thing he was most consistent with.

[Logania]

Holy crap, this thread got a senzu bean.

I find your ignorance and fanboyism offensive to the minds of people who actually pay attention to the show and understand the logic behind DBZ and how the power levels work.

>Logic

>Power Levels

You gotta pick one, bro. Not even Toriyama understands or cares about it.

Toriyama does care about power scaling though, he always explained where characters stood next to each other in regards to power rankings. Oddly enough, it was the thing he was most consistent with.

Yeah, but I'm referring to power levels, like in the post I was replying to. Scaling with forms and characters was usually consistent, but power levels and concepts centered around it like zenkai's have no basic rules or consistency with how it goes with fights and such.

If he was referring to power scaling then my apologies to him, as i just read the last small paragraph because I'm not about to read all that ranting between the two of them.

[Marlowe89]

Whoa, talk about resurrecting an old thread.

I should probably offer my own opinion on this one since it's still relevant: Super Saiyan 3's introduction was certainly an "asspull", but it was at least an asspull that was (admittedly retroactively) explained as the result of a seven-year training period in the afterlife. Super Saiyan Rage was far more egregious for the simple fact that there's very little, if any, context surrounding it. People often counter that Gohan's "Ultimate" state is the same, but I don't think that's exactly true either; his rage and hidden potential were plot points that were foreshadowed early on in the story and had a sort of thematic continuation to them. Meanwhile, not even Trunks' involvement in his own arc manages to justify how ridiculously arbitrary, nonsensical and ultimately meaningless his whole power-up is.

By no means am I defending the original series here, but it's also important to note that the original series doing it doesn't excuse this stuff either.

[UpFromTheSkies]

How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

They're not. I think the problem some people have is that there are too many ass pulls. They can accept Gohan is a prodigy, but when EVERYONE becomes a prodigy it's too much for them. I don't mind though, Dragon Ball was never meant to be taken seriously and analyzed, it's just a kids manga.

[Saiga]

What definition of asspull are we even using? The term as popularized by TV tropes refers to sudden developments without build, foreshadowing or prior planning. None of these apply to Gohan.

His rage had been set up from his introduction - even before he first attacks Raditz, he first shows a power up while still inside Raditz' pod. That's set up. Then we get iut first pay off when he attacks Raditz, and from their the precedent is established and his dormant power is explained. Does not fit the definition of an asspull.

For his old Kaioshin power-up, he has already been established as Mr. Dormant Power, and that he should be much more powerful than he currently is, even having greater potential to SS3 Goku. Then Old Kaioshin uses an established mechanic - potential unlock - and explains that his method will draw out even more than others. And we don't just go from that to Ultimate Gohan - Kaioshin first sets out that it will take a long time because Gohan has so much dormant power, setting up that this is much more serious than the others. Then we get a subsequent scene where Gohan lets out some power during the ritual and shows just how powerful he is becoming.

Again, this does not fit an ass pull. Both of this elements have set up & build up, something that Trunks' asspulls did not.

SS3 Goku is an asspull for Goku previously stating he didn't have anything up his sleeve, however we do get subsequent explanations that Goku obtained it from 7 years of Otherworld training and did not use it earlier because of the stamina drain. Furthermore, obtaining new Super Saiyan forms from training was already shown as possible from Goku and Vegeta obtaining the then unnamed Super Saiyan 2 (as well as Grade II and III before it), and this also established that there were transformations beyond the first Super Saiyan. It's pretty clumsy, but it's not that poorly handled.

Trunks' asspulls don't have any subsequent explanations, and don't build of established precedent in the same way. That's what makes them worse asspulls.

[VegettoEX]

What definition of asspull are we even using?

We're not. It's a grossly reductive term that people use to get out of having a real conversation without offering thoughtful commentary, and to dismiss their peers without truly considering their viewpoints. That it was entertained as long as it originally was here was a mistake.

Account strikes have been issued where applicable (independent from the necroposting).