How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:47 pm

The Patrolman wrote:Because Goku and Gohan earn their moments. Goku losing Krillin and Gohan not being able to save 16 made them angry enough to reach the power that they needed. I'm sorry but what Trunks did doesn't resonate. Oh Black and Zamasu mocked him so thats how he became an SSR (the whole name is also dumb as hell and still makes no sense). Oh Bulma got hurt and that cause his PTSD and suddenly mastered the Mafuba where it took Goku a day to master. And the less I talk about his moment where he cut Zamasu in half the better
The importance of the mockery that Black and Zamasu did towards Future Trunks runs far deeper than people realise. They were essentially blaming him for everything that went wrong with Android and Cell arc and basically belittling him for taking a desperate course of action to save his world by using time travel instead of just letting Goku from the Heart Virus and effectively prevent anything about the Zamasu arc happening. They were basically making Future Trunks feel like the worst person in history because he wanted protect what was left of humanity in his timeline and in the process making it seem as though every person that had died in his timeline was all his fault because he being selfish. Future Trunks was being made to feel great guilt just for his existence. That's what drove Future Trunks to his breaking point. He'll be damned if he's gonna be made out the be the villain for trying to save his world and have all the mortals that Goku Black slaughtered in his timeline feel like it rest on his shoulders when there was nothing he could do about that.

Goku earned his moments, even though SSJ3 is a huge asspull, but Gohan sure as hell didn't after getting his potential unlocked the first time on Namek. His SSJ2 moment was horribly contrived, horribly built up and horribly executed. Gohan sits out 95% percent of the Android/Cell arc, and when he does take an active role in it, he suddenly develops this pacifist nature to add more "drama" to the battle and lead a contrived moment. And may I remind you, this pacifist characteristic is never brought again after this arc. So Gohan just suddenly had a change of conviction with barely any build-up to it, that lead to a moment that had even less build up to it, for a payoff of a trait that was throw in a once or twice in every arc prior to Gohan's battle against Cell. I mean, what relationship does Gohan have with Cell that supposed to make the feeling of Cell being brought down a peg by him feel so cathartic or satisfying? That fact that Cell crushed 16 head? That moment means nothing because Gohan barely know who the fuck Android 16 was beyond the fact he was built to kill Goku. He of all people shouldn't be the trigger for Gohan's SSJ2 moment because there is no emotional connection between the two of them. If Toriyama spent more time developing #16's character and building a more believable relationship between Gohan and #16, the moment Gohan became a SSJ2 for the first time would have been perfect.

Remember Gohan's reaction after Piccolo died saving his life? That was emotional because Gohan at least got the chance to build a relationship with Piccolo to make the moment he died feel more relatable, genuine and powerful. Gohan was watching his family and friends he trained and grew up with getting beaten to death and it doesn't affect him other than making him grit his teeth harder. Yet a random Android that Gohan that doesn't know on any other level, other than he cares for all living beings on life, a viewpoint all of the Z-Fighters, excluding Vegeta, at that time also shared, dies in front of him and suddenly that makes Gohan snap and go over the edge? Nah. That's not good enough for me. I always feel that proper relationship needed to be built between the two characters to justify Gohan reacting the way he did when #16 was killed. It just helps the moment feel more raw and believable. Like when Goku became SSJ for the first time. You knew prior to that moment just how much Goku's friendship with Krillin meant to him because of how close they were depicted to be and how the reacted to each other death's the first time round. To me, it just felt like Toriyama needed an excuse for Gohan to become stronger and defeat Cell and he threw in that speech from #16 just so that the moment could happen. All we knew about #16 prior to moment is that kinda liked birds. That's it. Hell, didn't #16 state he would still kill Goku if they were successful in defeating Cell? So that whole "#16 cares about all living things" characteristic feel incredibly contrived.

And don't even me started on the shit that happened in the Majin Boo arc. Ultimate/Mystic/Super was just fucking lazy. The most blatant case of character getting a power to keep him relevant in the plot. Made even worse by the fact that Gohan never trained after the Cell arc. He just sits on his ass and he goes from getting one-shotted by Majin Boo to kicking Super Boo ass without even trying. Fuck that nonsense. Gohan just became a walking plot device by that stage. Super is just as bad with this, but people tend to forget how bad the original story was when it came to handing out power-up and new form for the convenience of the plot.

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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:51 am

Man, personally, I really dislike the "sudden pacifist" argument. Never believed it would pop up as often as it does. I've always interpreted Gohan's lack of resolve as a reminder that he was always fighting when he was forced to by his opponent and/or when the fight was therefore unavoidable (Nappa, Dodoria); all in all, the only time he ever kills somebody before the Cell Games is when kicking one of Freeza's goons on Namek (and the times he acts bloodthirsty is because of the famous ragebursts).

Besides, I think it's pretty easy to see it as Gohan making excuses because of the expectations that are put on him, as well.
I mean, he had been switched in to fill in for his father: something like "I don't wanna fight you/kill you; and besides there's no point, I'm not even the most indicated person here (with a tint of a 'there's my dad, I can't fill his shoes' undertone)". I'd definitely think of something else as acting out of character.

Regarding Trunks, I've never seen Super Saiyan Ikari (it would be "hikari", I guess, as in "light"?) anywhere. Is it a fan term? Thought the official designation was "Super Saiyan Rage".

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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by Cetra » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:58 am

LowRyder2005 wrote: Regarding Trunks, I've never seen Super Saiyan Ikari (it would be "hikari", I guess, as in "light"?) anywhere. Is it a fan term? Thought the official designation was "Super Saiyan Rage".
Super Saiyajin Ikari is Super Saiyajin Rage. People just call it Ikari because SSJR is already used for Rose.
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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:01 am

Cetra wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote: Regarding Trunks, I've never seen Super Saiyan Ikari (it would be "hikari", I guess, as in "light"?) anywhere. Is it a fan term? Thought the official designation was "Super Saiyan Rage".
Super Saiyajin Ikari is Super Saiyajin Rage. People just call it Ikari because SSJR is already used for Rose.
Oh, cool. Good to know. Thanks. :)

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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by NintendoBlaze53 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:14 am

Well I call it Ikari cause Ikari can be translated as Rage, Anger, Fury and a few other terms. So I'll stick with Ikari till it gets an English term.
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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by iAnimationLover_ » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:26 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
[spoiler]
The Patrolman wrote:Because Goku and Gohan earn their moments. Goku losing Krillin and Gohan not being able to save 16 made them angry enough to reach the power that they needed. I'm sorry but what Trunks did doesn't resonate. Oh Black and Zamasu mocked him so thats how he became an SSR (the whole name is also dumb as hell and still makes no sense). Oh Bulma got hurt and that cause his PTSD and suddenly mastered the Mafuba where it took Goku a day to master. And the less I talk about his moment where he cut Zamasu in half the better
The importance of the mockery that Black and Zamasu did towards Future Trunks runs far deeper than people realise. They were essentially blaming him for everything that went wrong with Android and Cell arc and basically belittling him for taking a desperate course of action to save his world by using time travel instead of just letting Goku from the Heart Virus and effectively prevent anything about the Zamasu arc happening. They were basically making Future Trunks feel like the worst person in history because he wanted protect what was left of humanity in his timeline and in the process making it seem as though every person that had died in his timeline was all his fault because he being selfish. Future Trunks was being made to feel great guilt just for his existence. That's what drove Future Trunks to his breaking point. He'll be damned if he's gonna be made out the be the villain for trying to save his world and have all the mortals that Goku Black slaughtered in his timeline feel like it rest on his shoulders when there was nothing he could do about that.

Goku earned his moments, even though SSJ3 is a huge asspull, but Gohan sure as hell didn't after getting his potential unlocked the first time on Namek. His SSJ2 moment was horribly contrived, horribly built up and horribly executed. Gohan sits out 95% percent of the Android/Cell arc, and when he does take an active role in it, he suddenly develops this pacifist nature to add more "drama" to the battle and lead a contrived moment. And may I remind you, this pacifist characteristic is never brought again after this arc. So Gohan just suddenly had a change of conviction with barely any build-up to it, that lead to a moment that had even less build up to it, for a payoff of a trait that was throw in a once or twice in every arc prior to Gohan's battle against Cell. I mean, what relationship does Gohan have with Cell that supposed to make the feeling of Cell being brought down a peg by him feel so cathartic or satisfying? That fact that Cell crushed 16 head? That moment means nothing because Gohan barely know who the fuck Android 16 was beyond the fact he was built to kill Goku. He of all people shouldn't be the trigger for Gohan's SSJ2 moment because there is no emotional connection between the two of them. If Toriyama spent more time developing #16's character and building a more believable relationship between Gohan and #16, the moment Gohan became a SSJ2 for the first time would have been perfect.

Remember Gohan's reaction after Piccolo died saving his life? That was emotional because Gohan at least got the chance to build a relationship with Piccolo to make the moment he died feel more relatable, genuine and powerful. Gohan was watching his family and friends he trained and grew up with getting beaten to death and it doesn't affect him other than making him grit his teeth harder. Yet a random Android that Gohan that doesn't know on any other level, other than he cares for all living beings on life, a viewpoint all of the Z-Fighters, excluding Vegeta, at that time also shared, dies in front of him and suddenly that makes Gohan snap and go over the edge? Nah. That's not good enough for me. I always feel that proper relationship needed to be built between the two characters to justify Gohan reacting the way he did when #16 was killed. It just helps the moment feel more raw and believable. Like when Goku became SSJ for the first time. You knew prior to that moment just how much Goku's friendship with Krillin meant to him because of how close they were depicted to be and how the reacted to each other death's the first time round. To me, it just felt like Toriyama needed an excuse for Gohan to become stronger and defeat Cell and he threw in that speech from #16 just so that the moment could happen. All we knew about #16 prior to moment is that kinda liked birds. That's it. Hell, didn't #16 state he would still kill Goku if they were successful in defeating Cell? So that whole "#16 cares about all living things" characteristic feel incredibly contrived.

And don't even me started on the shit that happened in the Majin Boo arc. Ultimate/Mystic/Super was just fucking lazy. The most blatant case of character getting a power to keep him relevant in the plot. Made even worse by the fact that Gohan never trained after the Cell arc. He just sits on his ass and he goes from getting one-shotted by Majin Boo to kicking Super Boo ass without even trying. Fuck that nonsense. Gohan just became a walking plot device by that stage. Super is just as bad with this, but people tend to forget how bad the original story was when it came to handing out power-up and new form for the convenience of the plot.
[/spoiler]

To be honest, they should've just added flashbacks of black murdering innocent people or just dead people lying on the ground to make the scene more understandable.

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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by Merged Zamasu » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:55 pm

There was proper build-up to Goku and Gohan's power-ups. Gohan's development since the Sayan Saga had all led to that one, big moment against Perfect Cell. It was something, that power, which Gohan had worked hard to achieve, and it didn't just come out of nowhere because the plot demanded it.

Trunks was strong. But it had never been estabilished that he could have gone toe-to-toe with Gods. Furthermore, where Vegeta and Goku failed, Trunks always, somehow, succeeded. He received a massive blast of immense power, fired by a God nonetheless, right into his face, and yet he wasn't even scratched. And somehow, the energy of:

- A bunch of injured civilians, a turtle, a cat, and an old robot;
- 2 injured Base Sayans
- All life of a dying world almost rid of all life.

Are enough of a power-up for Trunks to completely defeat Merged Zamasu, a guy whose strenght made even goddamn Vegetto fight seriously.

Trunks didn't defeat Merged Zamasu. Vegetto didn't defeat Merged Zamasu. Zeno didn't defeat Merged Zamasu. The Good Guys' plot armour defeated Merged Zamasu. Alas, what can a God, the Supreme God nonetheless, do against plot armor?

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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by Vegito Black » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:07 pm

Because nostalgia blinds us to the B's in dragon Ball. Ssj2 was bs so was super Saiyan in general even if it was mentioned by Vegeta in the first episode of z he said it like they were super Saiyan not because of a form but because they were born as hybrids that makes them super.

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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by DragonHermit » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:12 pm

I wouldn't really call Gohan SSJ2 or Goku SSJ3 asspulls.

Gohan unleashing his potential had been building up ever since the start of Z. He reached SSJ2 in the chamber momentarily. That transformation didn't come out of nowhere.

And as for SSJ3, Goku had been in the afterlife for 7 years. It'd be hard to imagine he did nothing all that time.


The problem with Trunks' move was that (1) how could 20 people give enough energy to kill of Zamasu (2) that move wasn't foreshadowed at all.

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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by Gog » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:18 pm

DragonHermit wrote:I wouldn't really call Gohan SSJ2 or Goku SSJ3 asspulls.

Gohan unleashing his potential had been building up ever since the start of Z. He reached SSJ2 in the chamber momentarily. That transformation didn't come out of nowhere.

And as for SSJ3, Goku had been in the afterlife for 7 years. It'd be hard to imagine he did nothing all that time.


The problem with Trunks' move was that (1) how could 20 people give enough energy to kill of Zamasu (2) that move wasn't foreshadowed at all.
Super saiyan three Goku is an asspull in every sense of the word, there was no foreshadowing, there was no reference to it, and earlier on in the buu arc Goku even out right stated that he didn't know if he could beat Majin Buu, when he totally could. Gohan's SSJ2 was referenced, but it was horrible in every sense of the word

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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by SaiyanZ » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:40 am

NintendoBlaze53 wrote:Gohan is regarded as a fan favourite, so much so a vocal fanbase of his get hyped every new arc at the prospect of his return to fame (I think he works better as Great Saiyaman), but he's done most of what Trunks did. Bullshit power ups that break the power scale? At least 5 times. Against Raditz, against Nappa, against Vegeta, against Freeza, against Cell, against Majin Buu. Gohan keeps receiving sudden power boosts, usually brought on from rage and in the case of his Unlocked Potential form, an asspull of a power boost that is just dropped on the viewer with no setup. Same with SSj3 for Goku, "So I can go beyond the beyond and make my hair super long and I learnt this off screen.". Don't even get me started on Gotenks learning SSj3, how is that any more acceptable then Future Trunks with Ikari I'll have no idea. As far back as Dragon Ball instant "I win" power ups have existed, Super Holy Water comes to mind. I have a similar thought on SSjBlue, at least it's a form that makes sense SSjGod+SSj=SSjBlue. SSj3 and Unlock Potential come out of nowhere with no build up and aren't explained. Yet Trunks SSjIkari is hated greatly more.
Gohan's powerups were acceptable because we had an explanation for why his powerups happened: he was a half-Saiyan hybrid with great potential for strength and he did specific things to gain that strength. Unlike with Trunks, who was surpassed in strength by numerous characters many arcs ago (Cell, Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Gotenks, Buu, Beerus, Whis, Freeza, Vados, Champa, Hit), none of Gohan's powerups were AS massive as what Trunks got; Gohan was one of the strongest characters in each arc, he wasn't some character who was massively left behind by other characters like what Future Trunks was in the Zamasu arc. Gohan had training with some of the strongest characters in each arc like Piccolo and Goku, he had his potential brought out by people like Grand Elder and Old Kaioshin. Those were specific things he did. In the case of Trunks, he just gets angry at some random ass point in the story, despite getting angry in previous episodes, without any concise or explicit in-universe reason for why he got that strength or even WHAT his strength is; it took a game to name his "new" form. Goku achieving SSj3 isn't an asspull either, because he trained offscreen for 7 years to get it. An asspull in this case is when you know what a character is capable of, yet through unexplained/impromptu means just gets more power. We didn't know what Goku was capable of at his best after 7 years, we only assumed SSj2 was his limit because of his fight with Vegeta. With Gotenks, that is far more acceptable because of how broken a technique the Metamorese dance is, AND because of the additional training they had in the RoSaT, not to mention they were half-breeds who were already SSjs at ages 7 and 8. The combination of those 3 things makes Gotenks getting SSj3 far more acceptable than some random Ikari rage boost that Trunks got for no reason except being angry. SSj3 and Elder Kaioshin's powerup are explained, just not foreshadowed. That doesn't mean they are asspulls.

NintendoBlaze53 wrote:Spirit Sword is.......harder to defend since the only reason it beats Zamasu is, Zamasu was worn down, Trunks got gifted Goku and Vegeta's god ki, and power of my Nakama. Yeah I'm not gonna defend this attack much except it fits it's purpose. Zamasu was a weakened villain and had no regen like Cell or Majin Buu. Potara had made him unstable. I doubt Trunks Spirit Sword would have sliced a fresh Merged Zamasu up as easily. And it would have done NOTHING against Majin Buu. But in reality, was Trunks showing up and getting the kill anymore of a bullshit way then the Genki Dama killing Buu? Yes...and no. The Genki Dama here was full of energy from Earth, plus Goku getting his energy restored. But up to this point the Genki Dama had never killed anything.
The Genki Dama not working previously doesn't mean that it working against Buu is an asspull. That was a Genki Dama that was powered by a lot of people, strong people too like Gohan. Trunks's Bankai spirit Sword is an asspull because Trunks out of nowhere can somehow concentrate the ki of people's emotions, hopes, dreams and wills and make it into a blade of all things that can cut him in half when Goku nor Vegeta could even touch him. I don't think it needs to be explained why that is bullshit and the Genki Dama in the Buu arc isn't.

NintendoBlaze53 wrote:Finally Trunks learning the Mafuba. Um.....Goku learnt the Kamehameha instantly, and Kuririn, and Yamucha, and Tenshinhan. Cell learned Instant Transmission somehow. Buu learned Instant Transmission AND the Kamehameha by watching Goku. When has Dragon Ball not made learning attacks a piece of cake? Tenshinhan learnt the Mafuba in think was an afternoon, Trunks at this point is much more a battle hardend warrior then Tenshinhan. (I will agree the whole Mafuba subplot was pointless anyway)
Goku took a whole night to learn the Mafuba whereas Trunks learned it in 5 minutes. Cell learned Shunkan Ido because he inherited Goku's SSj stage 4 cells when he died. The difference is there are explanations.

NintendoBlaze53 wrote:Why is Super so much more hated then Z for doing much of the exact same things? Including strange retcons that completely go against what characters said in a previous arc.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm hoping someone can tell me what is really so different about Trunks and as kinda an extension Super that makes it so Dragon Ball gets praised and these similar or even same elements in Super get criticized.
Any "retcon" that happened in Dragon Ball Z was given an in-universe explanation for why what was retconned was believed to have worked that way. Like with Piccolo being a Namekian despite being called part of the Mazoku, he and Kami had been talking in that alien language during the 23rd WT, and we had no idea of their pasts, so making them aliens was not a problem. In the case of the Potara being 1 hour only if non Kaioshin people use it, thats just dumb because Old Kaioshin would've known that and it defeats what makes the Potara special in the first place.
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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by NintendoBlaze53 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:57 am

SaiyanZ wrote: Gohan's powerups were acceptable because we had an explanation for why his powerups happened: he was a half-Saiyan hybrid with great potential for strength and he did specific things to gain that strength. Unlike with Trunks, who was surpassed in strength by numerous characters many arcs ago (Cell, Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Gotenks, Buu, Beerus, Whis, Freeza, Vados, Champa, Hit), none of Gohan's powerups were AS massive as what Trunks got; Gohan was one of the strongest characters in each arc, he wasn't some character who was massively left behind by other characters like what Future Trunks was in the Zamasu arc. Gohan had training with some of the strongest characters in each arc like Piccolo and Goku, he had his potential brought out by people like Grand Elder and Old Kaioshin. Those were specific things he did. In the case of Trunks, he just gets angry at some random ass point in the story, despite getting angry in previous episodes, without any concise or explicit in-universe reason for why he got that strength or even WHAT his strength is; it took a game to name his "new" form. Goku achieving SSj3 isn't an asspull either, because he trained offscreen for 7 years to get it. An asspull in this case is when you know what a character is capable of, yet through unexplained/impromptu means just gets more power. We didn't know what Goku was capable of at his best after 7 years, we only assumed SSj2 was his limit because of his fight with Vegeta. With Gotenks, that is far more acceptable because of how broken a technique the Metamorese dance is, AND because of the additional training they had in the RoSaT, not to mention they were half-breeds who were already SSjs at ages 7 and 8. The combination of those 3 things makes Gotenks getting SSj3 far more acceptable than some random Ikari rage boost that Trunks got for no reason except being angry. SSj3 and Elder Kaioshin's powerup are explained, just not foreshadowed. That doesn't mean they are asspulls.

The Genki Dama not working previously doesn't mean that it working against Buu is an asspull. That was a Genki Dama that was powered by a lot of people, strong people too like Gohan. Trunks's Bankai spirit Sword is an asspull because Trunks out of nowhere can somehow concentrate the ki of people's emotions, hopes, dreams and wills and make it into a blade of all things that can cut him in half when Goku nor Vegeta could even touch him. I don't think it needs to be explained why that is bullshit and the Genki Dama in the Buu arc isn't.

Goku took a whole night to learn the Mafuba whereas Trunks learned it in 5 minutes. Cell learned Shunkan Ido because he inherited Goku's SSj stage 4 cells when he died. The difference is there are explanations.

Any "retcon" that happened in Dragon Ball Z was given an in-universe explanation for why what was retconned was believed to have worked that way. Like with Piccolo being a Namekian despite being called part of the Mazoku, he and Kami had been talking in that alien language during the 23rd WT, and we had no idea of their pasts, so making them aliens was not a problem. In the case of the Potara being 1 hour only if non Kaioshin people use it, thats just dumb because Old Kaioshin would've known that and it defeats what makes the Potara special in the first place.
Here we go again. To repeat what has been said on the past 5 pages. Also here's TV Tropes definition of an Asspull which fits pretty much SSj3 and Unlock Potential AND Ikari. I know it's an asspull, but it's just as bad as Z, and in my opinion a better one due to Trunks character as some other people had stated in this forum. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Asspull

-Gohan went from weaker then Dabura to Super Buu level from an asspull. And yes it is an asspull. Elder Kai's dance is a plot-critical detail dropped without foreshadowing. Trunks has trained off screen for something like 10 years? He even defeated Dabura which means he's stronger then Buu arc Gohan at the point his timeline's Buu Arc happened.

-SSj3 Goku is an asspull. It is a plot-critical detail with lack of a Chekhov's gun like SSj1 and SSj2 got. And as I've said. Goku's. SSj3. Was. Not. Explained. It happens when Goku said 3 chapters earlier he's no stronger then Vegeta. It is BAD story telling and writing. The reader ASSUMES nothing. Cause the story has already told them Goku is weaker then Majin Buu.

-Also SSj2 wasn't named until Goku went SSj3. Many attacks in Dragon Ball have been named in the games. Hell the Final Kamehameha started as a game attack and is now canon. Games also named Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan I'm pretty sure.

-And how are you fine with a 7 and 8 year old half breeds getting super strong over the course a couple months but won't accept Trunks, who is a battle hardened well trained warrior who's SSj2 is almost as strong as Goku's SSj3.

-Majin Buu was at full power. Zamasu's MORTAL (That's the key point) body was not. Buu had regen, Zamasu did not. Buu was at full power when he took the Genki Dama, Zamasu just had his shit beat in by Vegetto. The Buu Genki Dama was full of mortal ki, the one Trunks used on Zamasu had god ki. Zamasu also had his body tearing itself apart due to the unstable Potara. Trunks's Hope Sword is not the ultimate godly attack. I doubt it's really that powerful. But it was enough to split Zamasu in half and seemingly disintegrate his battle damaged, worn out, corrupted mortal form.

-Goku learned the Kamehameha in a minute. Tenshinhan learned the Mafuba in a few hours. Dragon Ball has always had characters learn attacks quickly. Hell in the Super Manga Trunks now knows the Taiyo-Ken. Perhaps the manga will explain how he knows the Genki Dama. Or maybe even give a better explanation to Trunks learning the Mafuba OR Ikari. Also Cell can absorb cells? That's something new never before stated that is critical to the plot and only happens to further the plot. AKA an asspull. Also still no idea how Majin Buu learns Instant Transmission.

-Old Kaioshin had only ever seen Potara once and it was permanent for him. So no he should not have known. The entire Freeza arc is retcons from previously stated plot points. The Saiyan's working alone. Piccolo being Mazoku. Cell Arc too with the constant retcons or "No. THESE are the REAL ANDROIDS" though that was editorial decisions.

Z has retcons, it's not what fans consider a retcon or asspull. It's what fits the definition of a retcon or asspull. And a lot of things in Z do.
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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by SaiyanZ » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:50 am

NintendoBlaze53 wrote: Here we go again. To repeat what has been said on the past 5 pages. Also here's TV Tropes definition of an Asspull which fits pretty much SSj3 and Unlock Potential AND Ikari. I know it's an asspull, but it's just as bad as Z, and in my opinion a better one due to Trunks character as some other people had stated in this forum. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Asspull
By that definition, every new technique or attack ever in a series is an asspull. Piccolo's Makankosappo is an asspull since there was no foreshadowing or explanation for how he got it. Yusuke using Spirit Shotgun in YYH is an asspull. Luffy going Gear 4th against Doflamingo is an asspull. That's just bad reasoning. You don't NEED to see how a character got an ability for it not to be an asspull, you just need sufficient explanation. That's like saying Vegeta and Trunks gaining their SSj grade forms in the RoSaT are asspulls because we never saw what they did. Or that Goku and Gohan gaining their SSj stage 4 forms are asspulls because we never saw how they got it.

NintendoBlaze53 wrote: -Gohan went from weaker then Dabura to Super Buu level from an asspull. And yes it is an asspull. Elder Kai's dance is a plot-critical detail dropped without foreshadowing. Trunks has trained off screen for something like 10 years? He even defeated Dabura which means he's stronger then Buu arc Gohan at the point his timeline's Buu Arc happened.
No foreshadowing doesn't make it an asspull. There was no foreshadowing or actual showing for Ed Elric being able to transmute a spear in FMA, yet he did it anyway. We don't see him train to do it or anything. We don't see all the times Winry outfits him with more powerful and better automail. That doesn't make any of those moments an asspull since we get explanations. Trunks trained 16 years iirc which somewhat excuses it, but SSj3 is dictated by being dead and being in the afterlife due to the various ki drain effects, so its more questionable writing in terms of the sense that it makes, rather than an asspull like in the anime where he just gets mad after showing no progress in his strength beforehand after his spare with Goku. Its ok with Gotenks since Metamorese Fusion in itself is broken, so much so that they can only use it for 5 minutes without suffering from the ki drain that Goku is susceptible to.

NintendoBlaze53 wrote: -SSj3 Goku is an asspull. It is a plot-critical detail with lack of a Chekhov's gun like SSj1 and SSj2 got. And as I've said. Goku's. SSj3. Was. Not. Explained. It happens when Goku said 3 chapters earlier he's no stronger then Vegeta. It is BAD story telling and writing. The reader ASSUMES nothing. Cause the story has already told them Goku is weaker then Majin Buu.
Then that isn't an asspull, that is bad writing, with respect to the 3 chapters thing. SSj3 is explained and the explanation is that he achieved it in the afterlife after training for 7 years. Thats why he was able to tell Piccolo on Kami's Lookout after the fight that the form should only be used in the afterlife and not in the mortal realm. He also said he hadn't had much practice with it right before fighting Buu. Its all explained for how and why he got it, though the EXACT specifics aren't.

NintendoBlaze53 wrote: -Also SSj2 wasn't named until Goku went SSj3. Many attacks in Dragon Ball have been named in the games. Hell the Final Kamehameha started as a game attack and is now canon. Games also named Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan I'm pretty sure.
SSj2 was still named in the manga and Final Kamehameha is only canon to the anime. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was named in the pamphlet for the FnF movie, the one with AT's illustrations iirc.

NintendoBlaze53 wrote: -And how are you fine with a 7 and 8 year old half breeds getting super strong over the course a couple months but won't accept Trunks, who is a battle hardened well trained warrior who's SSj2 is almost as strong as Goku's SSj3.
Because we got an actual explanation for why they got that strong: the Metamorese Fusion Dance. Goku himself said that the two who tried it against him in the afterlife were nothing special on their own, yet when they fused, they became incredible. That is way more acceptable than Trunks getting mad, despite training to reach a level which is supposedly on SSj3 level, yet said strength is contradicted by the anime when SSj3 Goku defeats him with a punch.

NintendoBlaze53 wrote: -Majin Buu was at full power. Zamasu's MORTAL (That's the key point) body was not. Buu had regen, Zamasu did not. Buu was at full power when he took the Genki Dama, Zamasu just had his shit beat in by Vegetto. The Buu Genki Dama was full of mortal ki, the one Trunks used on Zamasu had god ki. Zamasu also had his body tearing itself apart due to the unstable Potara. Trunks's Hope Sword is not the ultimate godly attack. I doubt it's really that powerful. But it was enough to split Zamasu in half and seemingly disintegrate his battle damaged, worn out, corrupted mortal form.
Vegetto wasn't pushing Zamasu's shit in, he got a good flurry in towards the end when he defused but that doesn't mean he was winning. Also, Zamasu tanked Vegetto's Final Kamehameha without any trouble, so Zamasu was hardly struggling, he overpowered Vegetto at the end of Naotoshi Shida's cut. Turning the willpower and emotion of humans not worth anything in strength into a tangible ki sword is bullshit no matter how you slice it, at least by Dragon Ball standards. This is the kind of criticism that Fairy Tail suffers from because it happens almost all the time. Trunks didn't take any action to initiate it, the humans just started glowing white for no reason :lol: :lol:. Buu getting killed by the Genki Dama is far more acceptable than that, because of how Vegeta explained what they were doing, they were taking the ki of the various people up to their limits as opposed to how Goku did it in the past where he would only take a little bit. Taking actual ki from living and non living things as explained by Kaio in the Saiyan arc is not bs either, we might as well say Kaio knowing the Genki Dama is an asspull because we never saw him use it.

NintendoBlaze53 wrote: -Goku learned the Kamehameha in a minute. Tenshinhan learned the Mafuba in a few hours. Dragon Ball has always had characters learn attacks quickly. Hell in the Super Manga Trunks now knows the Taiyo-Ken. Perhaps the manga will explain how he knows the Genki Dama. Or maybe even give a better explanation to Trunks learning the Mafuba OR Ikari. Also Cell can absorb cells? That's something new never before stated that is critical to the plot and only happens to further the plot. AKA an asspull. Also still no idea how Majin Buu learns Instant Transmission.
My point isn't that characters learn attacks quickly, we have seen that, my point is Trunks learned it in 5 minutes from a GodTube video as opposed to Goku who took a full night to learn it from his actual master in real life. Cell absorbing Goku's cells after he exploded on Kaio's planet was something that WAS stated. It isn't an asspull. Buu learns Shunkan Ido for the same reason Goku and Tenshinhan learn Kamehameha easily, they're battle-smart.

NintendoBlaze53 wrote: -Old Kaioshin had only ever seen Potara once and it was permanent for him. So no he should not have known. The entire Freeza arc is retcons from previously stated plot points. The Saiyan's working alone. Piccolo being Mazoku. Cell Arc too with the constant retcons or "No. THESE are the REAL ANDROIDS" though that was editorial decisions.
He's a Kaioshin, he should know about the Potara regardless. Zamasu was a Kaioshin in training and learned about the Potara's effects anyway, that too after killing them all. It doesn't excuse it. Also, those aren't so much retcons as they are revelations about characters, though like you said Trunks talking about 19/20 and then 17/18 later is an obvious retcon due to writing/editorial decisions.

NintendoBlaze53 wrote: Z has retcons, it's not what fans consider a retcon or asspull. It's what fits the definition of a retcon or asspull. And a lot of things in Z do.
Not really. Goku's past for example is retconned because of Dragon Ball Minus. Super Saiyans appearing every 1000 years is retconned because of Battle of Gods. Piccolo being a Namekian isn't one though, because of how he and Kami talked via the alien language in the 23rd BT, thereby foreshadowing it, intentionally or unintentionally. Something doesn't need to be foreshadowed for it to be not an asspull or retcon.
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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by DragonHermit » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:17 am

Gog wrote: Super saiyan three Goku is an asspull in every sense of the word, there was no foreshadowing, there was no reference to it, and earlier on in the buu arc Goku even out right stated that he didn't know if he could beat Majin Buu, when he totally could. Gohan's SSJ2 was referenced, but it was horrible in every sense of the word
Goku was in the other world for 7 years....If he DIDN'T have a new transformation/amazing technique, that'd be out of the ordinary.

Asspull is when it just comes out of nowhere with no foreshadowing, no preparation, no training.

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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by Gog » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:19 am

DragonHermit wrote:
Gog wrote: Super saiyan three Goku is an asspull in every sense of the word, there was no foreshadowing, there was no reference to it, and earlier on in the buu arc Goku even out right stated that he didn't know if he could beat Majin Buu, when he totally could. Gohan's SSJ2 was referenced, but it was horrible in every sense of the word
Goku was in the other world for 7 years....If he DIDN'T have a new transformation/amazing technique, that'd be out of the ordinary.

Asspull is when it just comes out of nowhere with no foreshadowing, no preparation, no training.
And you just explained it, Goku did asspull it, in fact it wasn't even made at the start of the buu saga

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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by NintendoBlaze53 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:09 am

This article is getting way off topic and doing my head in. Now it's about Super as a whole. :crazy: Let's try to keep it to just Trunks VS Goku in terms of feats coming out of now where.
SaiyanZ wrote: By that definition, every new technique or attack ever in a series is an asspull. Piccolo's Makankosappo is an asspull since there was no foreshadowing or explanation for how he got it. Yusuke using Spirit Shotgun in YYH is an asspull. Luffy going Gear 4th against Doflamingo is an asspull. That's just bad reasoning. You don't NEED to see how a character got an ability for it not to be an asspull, you just need sufficient explanation. That's like saying Vegeta and Trunks gaining their SSj grade forms in the RoSaT are asspulls because we never saw what they did. Or that Goku and Gohan gaining their SSj stage 4 forms are asspulls because we never saw how they got it.

No foreshadowing doesn't make it an asspull. There was no foreshadowing or actual showing for Ed Elric being able to transmute a spear in FMA, yet he did it anyway. We don't see him train to do it or anything. We don't see all the times Winry outfits him with more powerful and better automail. That doesn't make any of those moments an asspull since we get explanations. Trunks trained 16 years iirc which somewhat excuses it, but SSj3 is dictated by being dead and being in the afterlife due to the various ki drain effects, so its more questionable writing in terms of the sense that it makes, rather than an asspull like in the anime where he just gets mad after showing no progress in his strength beforehand after his spare with Goku. Its ok with Gotenks since Metamorese Fusion in itself is broken, so much so that they can only use it for 5 minutes without suffering from the ki drain that Goku is susceptible to.

Then that isn't an asspull, that is bad writing, with respect to the 3 chapters thing. SSj3 is explained and the explanation is that he achieved it in the afterlife after training for 7 years. Thats why he was able to tell Piccolo on Kami's Lookout after the fight that the form should only be used in the afterlife and not in the mortal realm. He also said he hadn't had much practice with it right before fighting Buu. Its all explained for how and why he got it, though the EXACT specifics aren't.

Yes. Those are all Deus Ex Machina's. A sudden plot point that saves the day. Cause you know what? SHONEN ARE FULL OF ASSPULLS AND DEUS EX MACHINA! And you do need to see before hand how they achieve it, that's a crucial part of any narrative. Set-up.

Ed using Alchemy is a law of that world. We know how Alchemy works. The show clearly lays out the laws and fundamentals of it. We see him train in Alchemy AND how he learnt his hands free Alchemy. Also all of Ed's auto mail upgrades happen on screen. FMA has no asspulls or plot conveniences. It had plot twists and the plot plays out relative to the characters the show has set up. Every event happens because of a characters action that causes that event. We know the event is explained cause we know it's what that character would do.

Again in Hunter X Hunter. Techniques are explained by the rules of the Nen. The worlds that the shows inhabit help to explain what is and isn't possible. HXH comes close to asspulls sure. But as I said earlier, even Gon's Nen Unleashed form is set-up with the creation of Bisky. Bisky introduces the viewer to the idea of Nen being used to change one's body. This is good writing.

However the fact that SSj3 contradicts dialogue a few chapters before makes it an asspull as story writing goes. By Goku stating he can't even damage Buu like Vegeta, this line gives the reader context to the limits of the world and Goku's ability. The reader had no reason to ever suspect SSj3 was a thing. Then suddenly OH GUESS WHAT I LIED. That is bad writing. (It's as if Trunks said he never gets angry ever a few episodes before getting Ikari) And it makes SSj3 something that exists only to further the story of the arc and make Goku important. Which is an asspull. Though if SSj3 ended up defeating Majin Buu, you could excuse it as foreshadowing. But it didn't. Ikari DID. It was introduced to be the plot device of the arc. Does that make it better? NO. Ikari is an asspull made to keep Trunks relevant to Super and appease fans. It could have been done better and I hope the manga does so.
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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:21 am

Gohan's SSj2 boost is now widely considered to only be 2x his previous max power. Trunks on the other hand, jumped from a high SSj2 level to way beyond Super Saiyan God, with no God ki. That's a boost of at least hundreds, if not thousands, so no wonder people have a hard time stomaching it.

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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by SaiyanZ » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:55 am

NintendoBlaze53 wrote:
Yes. Those are all Deus Ex Machina's. A sudden plot point that saves the day. Cause you know what? SHONEN ARE FULL OF ASSPULLS AND DEUS EX MACHINA! And you do need to see before hand how they achieve it, that's a crucial part of any narrative. Set-up.

Ed using Alchemy is a law of that world. We know how Alchemy works. The show clearly lays out the laws and fundamentals of it. We see him train in Alchemy AND how he learnt his hands free Alchemy. Also all of Ed's auto mail upgrades happen on screen. FMA has no asspulls or plot conveniences. It had plot twists and the plot plays out relative to the characters the show has set up. Every event happens because of a characters action that causes that event. We know the event is explained cause we know it's what that character would do.

Again in Hunter X Hunter. Techniques are explained by the rules of the Nen. The worlds that the shows inhabit help to explain what is and isn't possible. HXH comes close to asspulls sure. But as I said earlier, even Gon's Nen Unleashed form is set-up with the creation of Bisky. Bisky introduces the viewer to the idea of Nen being used to change one's body. This is good writing.

However the fact that SSj3 contradicts dialogue a few chapters before makes it an asspull as story writing goes. By Goku stating he can't even damage Buu like Vegeta, this line gives the reader context to the limits of the world and Goku's ability. The reader had no reason to ever suspect SSj3 was a thing. Then suddenly OH GUESS WHAT I LIED. That is bad writing. (It's as if Trunks said he never gets angry ever a few episodes before getting Ikari) And it makes SSj3 something that exists only to further the story of the arc and make Goku important. Which is an asspull. Though if SSj3 ended up defeating Majin Buu, you could excuse it as foreshadowing. But it didn't. Ikari DID. It was introduced to be the plot device of the arc. Does that make it better? NO. Ikari is an asspull made to keep Trunks relevant to Super and appease fans. It could have been done better and I hope the manga does so.
Those aren't Deus Ex machinas either. Deus Ex Machina is like what happens at the end of The Legend of Korra with Aang. Piccolo using the Makankosappo or Yusuke using the Spirit Shotgun aren't. You don't need to see the exact specific way they got something, Roshi using the Kamehameha is an asspull/deus ex machina or whatever you call it then, which again is just bad reasoning. And no, not every shonen has those things, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 6 doesn't for example.

It doesn't matter. We never saw him transmute or use a spear via training, thus its an asspull by your definition. We know how Goku got Super Saiyan and we saw him train with it on numerous occasions. We never saw that for Ed and his ability to shoot projectiles out of a wall he made, so again, its an asspull by your definition. And no, we don't see every automail change Winry does on Ed as we see in the beginning when the flashback of them training with Izumi is told. Nothing of what you say next has anything to do with it being an asspull or not.

The only asspulls that I can think of in Hunter x Hunter is Gon's transformation, which again isn't really one considering it was a Vow, and Nanika which can just wish anything. Bisky's ability not being shown or being shown wouldn't have affected what Gon does. We already knew Nen could accomplish basically anything, grant any number of powers on an individual. Thats why by your definition, Hisoka having Bungee Gum is an asspull because we never saw Nen being able to stretch. Its just poor reasoning.

It isn't an asspull, its just poor writing, and very a insignificant piece of writing to criticize at that too. Goku saying he can't beat Buu is just him lying, we already knew he didn't want to use SSj3 if he didn't need to, and later he admits he could've won.
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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by gofishus » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:38 am

Gohan is regarded as a fan favourite, so much so a vocal fanbase of his get hyped every new arc at the prospect of his return to fame (I think he works better as Great Saiyaman), but he's done most of what Trunks did. Bullshit power ups that break the power scale? At least 5 times. Against Raditz, against Nappa, against Vegeta, against Freeza, against Cell, against Majin Buu. Gohan keeps receiving sudden power boosts, usually brought on from rage and in the case of his Unlocked Potential form, an asspull of a power boost that is just dropped on the viewer with no setup.
Gohan's power has always been hinted at as having potential. And he had his "potential" unlocked many times, first with Elder Guru on Namek then with him surpassing his father during the Cell games then with Elder Kai unlocking his full power AKA Mystic Gohan. He was always viewed as the character with the most potential and these incidents all reflect that.
Trunks on the other hand, was never hinted as having any kind of unlockable rage boost or battle potential
Same with SSj3 for Goku, "So I can go beyond the beyond and make my hair super long and I learnt this off screen.". Don't even get me started on Gotenks learning SSj3, how is that any more acceptable then Future Trunks with Ikari I'll have no idea. As far back as Dragon Ball instant "I win" power ups have existed, Super Holy Water comes to mind. I have a similar thought on SSjBlue, at least it's a form that makes sense SSjGod+SSj=SSjBlue. SSj3 and Unlock Potential come out of nowhere with no build up and aren't explained. Yet Trunks SSjIkari is hated greatly more.
SSJ3 doesn't make that much sense especially since its not activated by rage it seems. However, at least we kind of know what it is. Goku explains it to us. Its the stage beyond SSJ2. Trunks' new powerup gets no explanation at all. Trunks doesn't explain and neither does anyone else.
Gotenks learned SSJ3 from watching Goku do it. Remember they were at Kami's lookout and Goten + Trunks asked to see Goku perform SSJ3? Thats how Gotenks knows it.

SSJ Blue is incredibly lazy and is also unexplained and out of nowhere. Vegeta especially, so I guess he learned the ritual to be SSJG off screen and then can also do SSJB all of a sudden? ok.

The spirit bomb sword also gets no explanation whatsoever and theres no indication how Trunks ever learned that.

I just hate that Super doesn't even both explaining anything. DBZ had random powerups but they were kind of explained. DBS gets no explanation at all.

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Re: How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

Post by RedShift » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:28 pm

Do people even watch the same series anymore? Do people even pay attention? :problem:

1) Goku's SSj transformation was fulfilling a heavily foreshadowed alien prophecy, which started building up the moment Vegeta saw him fight the Ginyu Force. Achieving SS2 after seven years of training was a perfectly acceptable outcome... With seven years of constant training in Otherworld he should have far surpassed the level Gohan was against Cell, especially given the power progression of this series. SSj3 even makes a degree of sense because he had so much time & training behind him, and his 'dead' body meant he could just dump huge amounts of energy into transforming further. The past bullshit power-ups had explanation and build-up behind them.

2) Gohans rage boosting "unleashed power" shtick was his thing for the ENTIRETY of the series. There was a ton of buildup that it was only a matter of time before that was applied to him while already under the effects of Super Saiyan.

3) Gotenks learning SS3 in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber was no big surprise. Goten & Trunks weren't even ten years old and already capable of SSj with minimal training. There fusion was extremely powerful (because fusion, duh), and with weeks of training and there obvious interest in Goku showing them SS3 before he leaves back to Otherworld... Duh?

Trunks bullshit powerup(s) in DBSuper are the laziest, stupidest, and poorly thought out ass-pulls in the entire fucking franchise. Super establishes that SS3 Goku is an absolute joke next to Beerus, and he needs Godly Ki to even approach the general vicinity of Beerus power. Despite his lack of training compared to Goku (the Supreme Kai's training making Trunks that much stronger so quickly makes no sense, when Goku has been training for about 10 years straight after he last saw Trunks... WITH Beerus & Whis for at quite some time no less), Trunks is on par with Goku at SS2, or possibly SS3 if you go by Toyotaro's Manga adaptation.... Ok, I guess I can buy into that. Even if it is a stretch.

Going by ALL of the established power nonsense of DBSuper, Trunks is an ant compared Goku even AFTER his original SSG powers wore off against beerus. Yet suddenly, "because Rage", he gets a powerup that makes him capable of fighting Zamasu & Black simultaneously... The fuck?. He doesn't go train with Beerus & Whis for several years, he doesn't get a SSGod ritual, he just gets really fucking mad, Broly's out, and gets some strange unexplaned "form", and is now nearly as powerful as Super Saiyan Blue.... Not only that, but he learns the Mafuba after watching it on a fucking phone, AND THEN unconsiously makes a Spirit Bomb, something Goku had to learn from a Kai.

What. The. Fuck. :evil:
Last edited by RedShift on Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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