How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

[SaiyanGod117]

People who try to defend Super do this everytime is this some sort of coping mechanism to make it seem less convoluted and more coherent than it really is?
A least Z had some logic behind its asspulls, if you can even call it that, Super throws away logic and consistency at every turn. Rewriting established lore to fit situation in the story, characters arbitrarily getting power-ups without any explanation at all. Now there trying to use some rage or prodigy trash, as the the excuse for how characters get so strong. They did that in Z too, but not as much and poorly used as it's doing in Super.

[NintendoBlaze53]

His speech that "Oh I can go further on now". As people stated, this came a few episodes after he said "I have no chance of beating Majin Buu". Also it's still an asspull cause we didn't THINK SSj could go past 2. It's like if instead of Freeza stating "After this I have two more forms" he instead said "This is my final form" a few episodes later "Now this is my REAL final form" then "Actually I was just screwing with you. Now for my final form". The audience would feel like Toriyama was just pulling new Freeza forms out of nowhere. That's what SSj3 "If only I was strong enough to beat Buu. Oh wait. I am". It's bad writing and an asspull. Ikari is a similar asspull, but at least it makes sense in context as people have said.

In Hunter X Hunter Gon goes his Nen unleashed form. What he turns into makes NO SENSE. Except it does! Cause in the last arc we saw Bisky do the same thing. It's set up. We know it's possible to use Nen to change your body. That is how you set up a new form in a shonen. SSj3 does not do that. It just happens, the look, how Goku does it other then push ups, sit ups, and plenty of juice isn't explained.

About Freeza. I thought people were upset the fact "This isn't even my final form" became a meme again. Are we forgetting Goku went from weaker then Vegeta to stronger then the Ginyu Force in a week?

The idea of going beyond was done already though. That's EXACTLY what SSj2 is. And if "Going beyond in the first place puts the idea in your head", then why the hell is Trunks going beyond SSj2 so offensive to fans? If Trunks went SSj3 there wouldn't be nearly enough fan outcry. But him going a form that makes sense to his hybrid blood, his prior transformations circumstances, and a form that makes him not suffer the infamous power creep, is worse then going a form that's design and concept are flawed.

People who try to defend Super do this everytime is this some sort of coping mechanism to make it seem less convoluted and more coherent than it really is?
A least Z had some logic behind its asspulls, if you can even call it that, Super throws away logic and consistency at every turn. Rewriting established lore to fit situation in the story, characters arbitrarily getting power-ups without any explanation at all. Now there trying to use some rage or prodigy trash, as the the excuse for how characters get so strong. They did that in Z too, but not as much and poorly used as it's doing in Super.

Right. Cause Z never had any lore rewrites to fit the story. Like when Vegeta said he was the strongest in the universe and that the Saiyan's were alone and needed help conquering a planet, and they wanted immortality to battle forever. Next arc, they were ACTUALLY working for Freeza and wanted immortality to defeat him. As I said Unlock Potential is a retcon just to get Gohan stronger, his power was unlocked already, but turns out now we're saying it wasn't ALL unlocked. And despite Trunks cool head, he has had moments of rage. Some of which did grant him power ups, so it's not against his character. Hell in the manga the death of Kaioshin gave him SSj2. Super's bad is just as bad as Z, plot, characters and animation. Supers good though, is as good if not BETTER then Z in yet again, plot, characters and animation.

In Hunter X Hunter Gon goes his Nen unleashed form. What he turns into makes NO SENSE. Except it does! Cause in the last arc we saw Bisky do the same thing. It's set up. We know it's possible to use Nen to change your body. That is how you set up a new form in a shonen. SSj3 does not do that. It just happens, the look, how Goku does it other then push ups, sit ups, and plenty of juice isn't explained.

[TheMikado]

I don't really have an issue with any of Future Trunks' asspulls...individually. The problem is that once we reach the arc's halfway point or so, he basically starts pulling them out of nowhere every episode. There are so many within such a small time frame. It's just too much. The original series rarely suffers from this. Toriyama usually utilizes different characters with a decent amount of natural content padding between those sorts of beats.

I think this sums it up nicely, if it were just one or two here it would be within the threshold of suspension of disbelief, but because they literally come back to back to back from all angles it leaves you scratching your head as to how things got to this point if all these characters have all these crazy abilities and power ups the can pull out at any time.

[Simere]

And if "Going beyond in the first place puts the idea in your head", then why the hell is Trunks going beyond SSj2 so offensive to fans? If Trunks went SSj3 there wouldn't be nearly enough fan outcry. But him going a form that makes sense to his hybrid blood, his prior transformations circumstances, and a form that makes him not suffer the infamous power creep, is worse then going a form that's design and concept are flawed.

Beyond SSJ2 is SSJ3. What's Ikari? A hybrid transformation? That never gave a unique form before, but is it even a hybrid form? If it is they need to say so. What's "prior transformation circumstances" supposed to mean? What's not suffering power creep mean? Whatever they mean, that also wasn't said in the show. People will accept any explanation and have plenty of their own, they just needed to give one.

[NintendoBlaze53]

And if "Going beyond in the first place puts the idea in your head", then why the hell is Trunks going beyond SSj2 so offensive to fans? If Trunks went SSj3 there wouldn't be nearly enough fan outcry. But him going a form that makes sense to his hybrid blood, his prior transformations circumstances, and a form that makes him not suffer the infamous power creep, is worse then going a form that's design and concept are flawed.

Beyond SSJ2 is SSJ3. What's Ikari? A hybrid transformation? That never gave a unique form before, but is it even a hybrid form? If it is they need to say so. What's "prior transformation circumstances" supposed to mean? What's not suffering power creep mean? Whatever they mean, that also wasn't said in the show. People will accept any explanation and have plenty of their own, they just needed to give one.

Ikari is speculated to be a form brought on by pure range. Just like how SSj2 was. To me, I think it's a form brought on by Despair, blame my inner Danganronpa fanboy. In 20 years time we'll see how much we know about Ikari. Cause it's still only 3 months old since it's reveal. Again, 3 months later SSj2 didn't even have a name!

As for prior transformation circumstance. Both SSj and SSj Grade 3 for Trunks were brought on by rage, so Ikari isn't any different. Power creep is where new powers and abilities are introduced that make old abilities obsolete. Trunks needed a new form to stand a chance against Rose and Zamasu, the villains of the arc. That's no different then any other transformation in any shonen ever, Dragon Ball included.

My opinions on Ikari are that it's a show and don't tell. When Trunks goes Ikari multiple times his muscles get buff like Super Saiyan Grade 3, before the blue aura appears and his muscles go back to regular sized. Based on that he goes Grade 3, before some godly energy, implied by the aura being the same as SSj Blue, does the same thing SSj Blue does and control his ki so that he doesn't suffer the uncontrollable ki from SSj Grade 3. A character design and transformation can add A LOT to a form. SSj4 is praised so much for that exact reason.

[SaiyanGod117]

Right. Cause Z never had any lore rewrites to fit the story. Like when Vegeta said he was the strongest in the universe and that the Saiyan's were alone and needed help conquering a planet, and they wanted immortality to battle forever. Next arc, they were ACTUALLY working for Freeza and wanted immortality to defeat him. As I said Unlock Potential is a retcon just to get Gohan stronger, his power was unlocked already, but turns out now we're saying it wasn't ALL unlocked. And despite Trunks cool head, he has had moments of rage. Some of which did grant him power ups, so it's not against his character. Hell in the manga the death of Kaioshin gave him SSj2. Super's bad is just as bad as Z, plot, characters and animation. Supers good though, is as good if not BETTER then Z in yet again, plot, characters and animation.

I never said it did, but a least it try's to make it fit in with the rest of the story and lore, Vegeta saying he's the strongest in the universe is just his egotiscal blabbering nothing more, it had no impact on the story whatsoever. The Saiyans were alone and they did want immortality to battle forever, but they also wanted to take out Frieza as well for treating them like slaves.

Gohan had never unlocked his full potential before his meeting with Elder Kai it was just a portion of it. He just learned bring more of it out willing instead of accidentally, futhermore Elder Kao's potential unlock ability. Unlocks potential past it's limits and it's still a whole a lot better to swallow to obtaining God Ki out of the blue and being able to fight on par with SSB level characters because of a rage boost, with no prior training.

When has rage ever granted Trunks more power, his Super Saiyan Transformation really doesn't count you still need to train to certain point before your able to transform. If all it was just you needing to be angry to get more power, everyone should SSJ3 level and up.

I disagree completely, Z is better than Super in every category not one arc from Super even comes to any of the 4 arcs especially the first two. Super's plot is a convoluted mess, even the powerscaling is messed up, you can't even tell who's stronger, that's post to be one of easiest things to identify about Dragon Ball. Most of the characters regressed in my opinion, you can't even talk about animation and art until the FT arc it's been completely trash, where just now it's been made tolerable. Super before the FT arc was utter trash, now it's average I guess, I'm hoping this next arc delivers.

In Hunter X Hunter Gon goes his Nen unleashed form. What he turns into makes NO SENSE. Except it does! Cause in the last arc we saw Bisky do the same thing. It's set up. We know it's possible to use Nen to change your body. That is how you set up a new form in a shonen. SSj3 does not do that. It just happens, the look, how Goku does it other then push ups, sit ups, and plenty of juice isn't explained.

He trained for 7 years in the afterlife and because he had an immortal body he was able to obtain, for its an asspull but an explanation was given to it. I disagree, about Gon's form not being an asspull just because Bisky was able to do it meant nothing. He never even learned it beforehand, it's equivalent asspull to Trunks's Genki Dana sword.

[NintendoBlaze53]

Right. Cause Z never had any lore rewrites to fit the story. Like when Vegeta said he was the strongest in the universe and that the Saiyan's were alone and needed help conquering a planet, and they wanted immortality to battle forever. Next arc, they were ACTUALLY working for Freeza and wanted immortality to defeat him. As I said Unlock Potential is a retcon just to get Gohan stronger, his power was unlocked already, but turns out now we're saying it wasn't ALL unlocked. And despite Trunks cool head, he has had moments of rage. Some of which did grant him power ups, so it's not against his character. Hell in the manga the death of Kaioshin gave him SSj2. Super's bad is just as bad as Z, plot, characters and animation. Supers good though, is as good if not BETTER then Z in yet again, plot, characters and animation.

I never said it did, but a least it try's to make it fit in with the rest of the story and lore, Vegeta saying he's the strongest in the universe is just his egotiscal blabbering nothing more, it had no impact on the story whatsoever. The Saiyans were alone and they did want immortality to battle forever, but they also wanted to take out Frieza as well for treating them like slaves.

Gohan had never unlocked his full potential before his meeting with Elder Kai it was just a portion of it. He just learned bring more of it out willing instead of accidentally, futhermore Elder Kao's potential unlock ability. Unlocks potential past it's limits and it's still a whole a lot better to swallow to obtaining God Ki out of the blue and being able to fight on par with SSB level characters because of a rage boost, with no prior training.

When has rage ever granted Trunks more power, his Super Saiyan Transformation really doesn't count you still need to train to certain point before your able to transform. If all it was just you needing to be angry to get more power, everyone should SSJ3 level and up.

I disagree completely, Z is better than Super in every category not one arc from Super even comes to any of the 4 arcs especially the first two. Super's plot is a convoluted mess, even the powerscaling is messed up, you can't even tell who's stronger, that's post to be one of easiest things to identify about Dragon Ball. Most of the characters regressed in my opinion, you can't even talk about animation and art until the FT arc it's been completely trash, where just now it's been made tolerable. Super before the FT arc was utter trash, now it's average I guess, I'm hoping this next arc delivers.

In Hunter X Hunter Gon goes his Nen unleashed form. What he turns into makes NO SENSE. Except it does! Cause in the last arc we saw Bisky do the same thing. It's set up. We know it's possible to use Nen to change your body. That is how you set up a new form in a shonen. SSj3 does not do that. It just happens, the look, how Goku does it other then push ups, sit ups, and plenty of juice isn't explained.

He trained for 7 years in the afterlife and because he had an immortal body he was able to obtain, for its an asspull but an explanation was given to it. I disagree, about Gon's form not being an asspull just because Bisky was able to do it meant nothing. He never even learned it beforehand, it's equivalent asspull to Trunks's Genki Dana sword.

"retcon
noun
(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency."

By this definition, what I said was a retcon is a retcon. Vegeta saying he's the strongest, the Saiyans wanting imortality and working alone, were both retconed in the Freeza arc. Whether they were explainable retcons or not, they are still retcons. Potara's time limit is an explainable retcon and it's pretty hated. Gohan having MORE hidden potential is also a retcon made up just to fit the stories needs. If you need to train to a certain point to achieve Super Saiyan, then explain Kid Trunks and Goten. Vegeta prior in Super obtained god ki out of the blue. In Z Gotenks obtaines SSj3 out of the blue. Trunks has been training in the Future non stop. It's why his SSj2 form is so strong. He did what Goku and Gohan did in the Cell arc and mastered his usage of the form as opposed to searching for even more power.

Power scaling has always been the stupidest thing in Dragon Ball and is a concept invented to make fans argue who can beat who. As VegettoEX has said, power levels were introduced to be inaccurate or something along those lines. As far back as the freaking Freeza saga has power scaling been ridiculous. Remember Piccolo going from losing to Nappa to beating 2nd form Freeza simply from absorbing Nail? Are we also gonna just forget that triangle guy happened in Z when comparing art? Are we also gonna forget the amazing moments Super's animation has had. viewtopic.php?f=25&t=32434
Also a few users in this community actually consider the Future Trunks arc as one of the best in Dragon Ball.

As for Hunter X Hunter. Gon's accession is almost the same as Trunks. Both are left in a moment of despair with almost no hope for any future, then they break. And how is Gon snapping any different to Goku going SSj1? Did Goku ever see anyone go SSj? Did he ever learn it? NO! In Dragon Ball the concept of a Saiyan going into an ultra powerful form is introduced, and in Hunter X Hunter, the concept of using Nen to alter one's body is introduced. Going SSj in Dragon Ball for the first time and Gon going Nen unleashed are transformations that happen with no consent or trigger by the user themselves. It just happens whether the user wants to or not.

[SaiyanGod117]

"retcon
noun
(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency."

Thank you, I know what it is.

By this definition, what I said was a retcon is a retcon. Vegeta saying he's the strongest, the Saiyans wanting imortality and working alone, were both retconed in the Freeza arc. Whether they were explainable retcons or not, they are still retcons. Potara's time limit is an explainable retcon and it's pretty hated. Gohan having MORE hidden potential is also a retcon made up just to fit the stories needs. If you need to train to a certain point to achieve Super Saiyan, then explain Kid Trunks and Goten. Vegeta prior in Super obtained god ki out of the blue. In Z Gotenks obtaines SSj3 out of the blue. Trunks has been training in the Future non stop. It's why his SSj2 form is so strong. He did what Goku and Gohan did in the Cell arc and mastered his usage of the form as opposed to searching for even more power.

The Saiyans did want immortality but it was a bonus that if they got it, they would have a chance of killing Frieza. When did the Saiyans say they worked alone, they are alone as far their race goes. Even call Vegeta saying he's the strongest in the universe a retcon, than what do you call Burter saying he's the fastest in the universe. Is that a retcon too? No it's just ego talking.

Gohan having more potential doesn't seem like retcon to me, if it was than you're basically saying he wouldn't have gotten any stronger than SSJ2. His potential has always hinted at being bottomless (not literally) and having the most potential among the Saiyans. So if Goku and Vegeta were able to achieve SSJ2 and become stronger than Gohan, then it's only right for Gohan to able to achieve a higher level and become stronger than him. Since Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be having more potential than Gohan, if all that makes sense. The reason Goten and Trunks were able to turn SSJ at a young age is because their prodigies, during the Buu arc I guess that's when Toriyama wanted to make more prevalent use of the Prodigy plot power up. But it was subtly hinted at the beginning of the Saiyan Saga, that Saiyan hybrid are born with more natural aptitude than a Pure Saiyan.

Vegeta obtained SSB from training with Whis and learning to how to control his Ki to make it stop leaking. Gotenks was a fusion of two prodigious offsprings born from already two prodigious farthers, plus it was a fusion and they got to train in the Timechamber for a little which also helped. Also, so what if Trunks trained all his life, he still shouldn't be close to the power of SSG or Blue.

Power scaling has always been the stupidest thing in Dragon Ball and is a concept invented to make fans argue who can beat who. As VegettoEX has said, power levels were introduced to be inaccurate or something along those lines. As far back as the freaking Freeza saga has power scaling been ridiculous. Remember Piccolo going from losing to Nappa to beating 2nd form Freeza simply from absorbing Nail? Are we also gonna just forget that triangle guy happened in Z when comparing art? Are we also gonna forget the amazing moments Super's animation has had. viewtopic.php?f=25&t=32434
Also a few users in this community actually consider the Future Trunks arc as one of the best in Dragon Ball.

Powerscaling is an important part of any battle oriented story do you want Dragon Ball to look like Fairy Tail? Because right now it's looking just like that and people are noticing. Along with its garbage animation, Super only has like 5 good animation moments out of 74 episodes, the rest are trash Z has way more.

As for Hunter X Hunter. Gon's accession is almost the same as Trunks. Both are left in a moment of despair with almost no hope for any future, then they break. And how is Gon snapping any different to Goku going SSj1? Did Goku ever see anyone go SSj? Did he ever learn it? NO! In Dragon Ball the concept of a Saiyan going into an ultra powerful form is introduced, and in Hunter X Hunter, the concept of using Nen to alter one's body is introduced. Going SSj in Dragon Ball for the first time and Gon going Nen unleashed are transformations that happen with no consent or trigger by the user themselves. It just happens whether the user wants to or not

You're right they both use abilities they were never taught subconsciously, it's just that since Hunter X Hunter is better than Super and since that scene is pretty good as well it's get leeway. Gon and Goku's transformation entry into the story are fundamentally different, Goku's transformation has build up for an entire arc and it's exclusively only to his race. The one transformation that the strongest in the universe was afraid of, the climax of the arc.

[NintendoBlaze53]

The Saiyan's wanted immortality for "No death, no age. Only an eternity of combat". Raditz came to Earth to get Goku cause they "found a planet that might be hard for only 3 Saiyans to take over". If they're apart of the Freeza force, why can't Freeza get the Ginyu Force to take it over? Or anyone else? Cause Toriyama hadn't created Freeza yet. Same is said for Planet Vegeta getting destroyed by an asteroid. People simply watched Z out of order so they never experienced the sudden retcons. Most people KNOW who Freeza is and his story with the Saiyans. If you watch or read the manga in order and erase any prior knowledge from your head, it's kinda jarring. Unfortunately only a select view fans will ever experience the whole series in chronological order, even less without any knowledge of Super Saiyan, IF ANY.

So you'll say Gohan and half Saiyan hybrids are prodigy's, have almost unlimited untapped potential, that Vegeta training to God Ki level is fine, and that Goku training for 7 years to become a SSj3 is fine. Yet Trunks committing these is awful. I will admit Trunks alone getting so many of these traits is over doing it, but Trunks is the most tragic character in all of Dragon Ball. He's faced the end of his world TWICE, seen his best friend and mentor, as well as his mother die. In the Goku Black arc he also thought he had made everything worse by screwing with timeline from Black's monologue, which triggered Ikari. Trunks is a well written character his bullshit feats aside.

As a JoJo fan, I will always prefer a characters technique and personal abilities being used in a fight over punching really really hard. One Piece can have characters win from technique and intelligence alone, Nami and Usopp's entire characters are almost written that way. Ajay has an extensive guide and channel detailing Super's animation, it's not great 24/7. But for what the last two arcs have been compared to many other long running shonen COUGH*NARUTO*COUGH.

And I'm not ever gonna try and compare Super to Hunter X Hunter in term of quality. But Gon's descent the entire arc into despair after what happens to Kite I took as his character development and his build up into his Nen Unleashed form.

I am trying to compare Trunks a few months after the Goku Black arc to the asspulls and retcons in Z a few months after they happened. It's all about perspective.

[PsionicWarrior]

There is just no way Trunks could attain such huge boost in so short time lol
There is NO indication whatsoever, no seven years in the netherworld nor Fusion nor nothing lol

Right. Remind me how Goku beat Freeza? Oh right a rage boost from going SSj. Oh and Gohan beat Cell? Oh right it was a rage boost from SSj2. So how did Trunks get strong enough to combat Zamasu? Oh that's right a rage boost from going Ikari.

Dude, if you want to compare with Freeza it would be the same as if Goku became SSJ3 directly vs Freeza and even more lol
The gap between God-ki and non-God-ki is just too freaking huge to ignore lol

That still leaves the question. What the hell is Super Saiyan 3?! "The form he atained while in other world" is not acceptable.

SSJ3 is what comes after SSJ2, it's the logical evolution, just like SSJB comes after SSJG... oh wait lol
Honestly I don't mind God-ki that much, but when you see a SSJ2 being able to trade blow with Gods, I'm not saying there is no problems in Z, but please, can't you see the difference in "we don't care about stupid power levesl" from the writers lol
It does not make the scene less enjoyable, but it surely is one of the biggest if not the biggest asspull of this franchise lol (I mean Trunks form lol)
At least for SSJ3 you have some vague indications, you even have a name, whether for Trunks's form not even this, nada, niet, zitch lol

It was never implied you can go beyond SSj2. SSj1, SSj2 and SSj God were all set up throught their arc as evolution's. SSj3 was just "OH I go beyond btw.". SSj Blue can at least get a pass cause it's explanation is that it's SSj+SSj God.

You can always go beyond in this series lol

You're using knowledge from video games and supplementary material over the past 20 years to explain forms.

Errr, what? No I'm not lol

[Gog]

People who try to defend Super do this everytime is this some sort of coping mechanism to make it seem less convoluted and more coherent than it really is?
A least Z had some logic behind its asspulls, if you can even call it that, Super throws away logic and consistency at every turn. Rewriting established lore to fit situation in the story, characters arbitrarily getting power-ups without any explanation at all. Now there trying to use some rage or prodigy trash, as the the excuse for how characters get so strong. They did that in Z too, but not as much and poorly used as it's doing in Super.

Could say the same about Z.

No Super's ass pulls aren't as bad or prevalent as Z's

[NintendoBlaze53]

There is just no way Trunks could attain such huge boost in so short time lol
There is NO indication whatsoever, no seven years in the netherworld nor Fusion nor nothing lol

Right. Remind me how Goku beat Freeza? Oh right a rage boost from going SSj. Oh and Gohan beat Cell? Oh right it was a rage boost from SSj2. So how did Trunks get strong enough to combat Zamasu? Oh that's right a rage boost from going Ikari.

Dude, if you want to compare with Freeza it would be the same as if Goku became SSJ3 directly vs Freeza and even more lol
The gap between God-ki and non-God-ki is just too freaking huge to ignore lol

That still leaves the question. What the hell is Super Saiyan 3?! "The form he atained while in other world" is not acceptable.

SSJ3 is what comes after SSJ2, it's the logical evolution, just like SSJB comes after SSJG... oh wait lol
Honestly I don't mind God-ki that much, but when you see a SSJ2 being able to trade blow with Gods, I'm not saying there is no problems in Z, but please, can't you see the difference in "we don't care about stupid power levesl" from the writers lol
It does not make the scene less enjoyable, but it surely is one of the biggest if not the biggest asspull of this franchise lol (I mean Trunks form lol)
At least for SSJ3 you have some vague indications, you even have a name, whether for Trunks's form not even this, nada, niet, zitch lol

It was never implied you can go beyond SSj2. SSj1, SSj2 and SSj God were all set up throught their arc as evolution's. SSj3 was just "OH I go beyond btw.". SSj Blue can at least get a pass cause it's explanation is that it's SSj+SSj God.

You can always go beyond in this series lol

You're using knowledge from video games and supplementary material over the past 20 years to explain forms.

Errr, what? No I'm not lol

So I just read the chapter that SSj3 debuts in. I never realized SSj3 is in only two halfs of two chapters. Anyway, Goku says NOTHING about the form. "And this is the next level" is the only explanation given. He never says how he got it or what triggered it or anything like that. The seven years training was stated AFTER the fact, way after.

Also Vegeta went from SSj2 to SSGSS. Trunks went from SSj2 to SSj Ikari.
I dunno why, but I just prefer Super's transformations for they're "Show don't tell" concept. I don't want exposition too much in my character driven shonen. I should be able to look at a form and explain it. GT did this well too.
SSj4- A Super Saiyan with Ozaru hair.
SSj God- It's like Kaio-Ken. Which is a technique of gods. But the aura is flame, like Beerus.
SSj Blue- It's God aura, but the hair of a Super Saiyan. I guess it's the two combined.
SSj Ikari- Well his muscles get big before his ki is compressed by the god aura. So I guess it's SSj Grade 3 with god Ki to control it.

All these forms design have a creative purpose. Not "Inking takes a lot of time so what if I made Goku's hair a light colour".

[PsionicWarrior]

I dunno why, but I just prefer Super's transformations for they're "Show don't tell" concept. I don't want exposition too much in my character driven shonen.

Fair enough I can get that, there's nothing wrong in enjoying asspulls lol

[Kishido]

Holy shit... Of course there is a huge difference in terms of story telling.

Super Saiyan
The whole Namek saga was about Frieza being afraid about a Saiyan reaching it and all the Vegeta talk... Goku got it through rage

Super Saiyan 2
Ever since RoSaT the goal was to surpass the limits of Super Saiyan... Trunks and Vegeta did it wrong... Goku couldn't do it besides mastering Super Saiyan but he knew Gohan could make it... Again at least we already at this time we knew it is "beyond" Super Saiyan even if we hadn't a name for it

Super Saiyan 3
I give you this one and it came out of nowhere... While some people like it, I do not... Still Goku "explained" what it is a bit and we got TONS of character reactions to it and how Goku was even able to go beyond.

Ultimate Gohan
I hate this "transformation" cuz like shown even in GT it brought problems with it... Still Elder Kai explained it what the fuck he has done

Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
This one is tricky and again a problem in Super... But at least Vegeta had to trained under a god ki master ala Whis for a damn long time to master his ki and learn god ki.

and now to Future Trunks
He got pissed and by Rage he unlocked a new mode... Not even Super Saiyan 3, for some dumb reason Super Saiyan Blue but something completely new... Something with blue god looking ki which was able to match the god level fighters in the arc... What do we have besides it... Not even one shocked character reactions... Not even by his daddy... Not even the slightest hint of explanation and what the fuck this blue ki is... Everyone hoped for Heroes and Dokkan battle and all it was is RAGE again? Sorrry but this is bullshit... Even the theories about it being the SSG version for hybrids has been far better or that it is an incomplete form of SSG... But even if this would have been true, why not explaining it through at least Vegeta who was able to reach SSG without the ritual? But nope no one cared...

That's a huge difference... Won't even talk about the huge assoull Genkidama Sword... Yeah Goku has to gather energy for a long time, has even to ask for it and even more can't do it in Super Saiyan mode... But Trunks can do it ouf of his ass.

Yup awesome storytelling... It was just to make Future Trunks cool and give the fangirls a awesome goodbye.

But maybe there is hope that Gohan will reach this strange Ikari form as well and we will get explained... But I doubt... Most likely they will make him blue or Ultimate with some unique hair color again... But I hope this time with an explanation

[SansrivaaL]

One of my reasons why I hate Future Trunks' SSJRage form is because of the huge and I mean huuuuge jump in power and skipping shiz, when it came to Vegeta I was ok since he was training a good while with Whis and with Goku before he got it, but Trunks got it outta nowhere, he skipped SSJ3/SSJG/SSJB and made his own fcking new form that for some reason looked above SSJB Goku and Vegeta for a good while, I cannot take this asspull but thankfully Future Trunks is gone and hopefully he doesnt return again.

I liked Trunks before, but with all the hype and asspull they gave him outta nowhere I came to hate his character and entire existence in the franchise as a whole.

SSJ had this whole hype of it being an actual thing before Goku getting it.
SSJ2 was hyped as well when Goku showed full confidence in Gohan and saying he saw that potential in him as early in the DBZ he was already someone that we knew would get a power beyond Goku.
SSJ3 Goku explained how he got it and trained to get it, either it was from rage or from training in the other world who knows? but I still dont see it as an asspull
Mystic was a hell of an asspull but at least it wasnt a huge jump in power, its like a better version of a SSJ3 for hybrids
SSJG well this was an asspull but Beerus already mentioned it over and over before SSJG actually made an appearance
SSJB is a mastered version of SSJG, they trained to maintain the form and gain the God ki.
SSJRage fcking came outta nowhere with no hype at all, we didnt even know it was coming nor a sign that it was gonna be a thing, its just that Trunks jumped in power to keep him relevant and the hero in his arc.

[SaiyanGod117]

The Saiyan's wanted immortality for "No death, no age. Only an eternity of combat". Raditz came to Earth to get Goku cause they "found a planet that might be hard for only 3 Saiyans to take over". If they're apart of the Freeza force, why can't Freeza get the Ginyu Force to take it over? Or anyone else? Cause Toriyama hadn't created Freeza yet. Same is said for Planet Vegeta getting destroyed by an asteroid. People simply watched Z out of order so they never experienced the sudden retcons. Most people KNOW who Freeza is and his story with the Saiyans.

That's basically what I just said, but the immortality came with a bonus as well and really only Vegeta wanted to take down Frieza, no other Saiyan explicitly mentioned that. When he first found out about the Dragon Balls, he primarily wanted them for immortality, but than he suddenly realized this one was his one and only chance to take down Frieza. Still even without the immortality he was still probably trying to find out ways to take him out anyway, since he always hated Frieza. For good reason, he was treated like shit by everyone, him finding out that Frieza was the one who destroyed his planet just fueled the fire, know one would want to help the so called "stupid monkeys." Not only that, but the Ginyu Force have other important jobs to do, they can't just help the Saiyan on every whim they need assistance. And so what if Toriyama didn't create Frieza yet, he had no intention of ending the story there or making Vegeta the end all, be all villain. Vegeta saying he's the strongest in the universe does nothing to the story it's just him being full of himself ( just like he is the whole series), Planet Vegeta being destroyed by an asteroid was just a cover up story to keep the Saiyans in check, it was all build up for Frieza.

If you watch or read the manga in order and erase any prior knowledge from your head, it's kinda jarring. Unfortunately only a select view fans will ever experience the whole series in chronological order, even less without any knowledge of Super Saiyan, IF ANY.

Where did you get that from? Majority of the fanbase has seen DBZ in order, to lesser degree DB as well.

So you'll say Gohan and half Saiyan hybrids are prodigy's, have almost unlimited untapped potential, that Vegeta training to God Ki level is fine, and that Goku training for 7 years to become a SSj3 is fine. Yet Trunks committing these is awful. I will admit Trunks alone getting so many of these traits is over doing it, but Trunks is the most tragic character in all of Dragon Ball. He's faced the end of his world TWICE, seen his best friend and mentor, as well as his mother die. In the Goku Black arc he also thought he had made everything worse by screwing with timeline from Black's monologue, which triggered Ikari. Trunks is a well written character his bullshit feats aside.

Not literally like emphasized in my last post, but they do have a lot of potential and it wasn't even mentioned all the way back in the Saiyan Saga, that mixing Human and Saiyan blood breeds powerful hybrids. A least with DBZ there were limitations, with Super there overdoing it, no training involved whatsoever just pure rage, so basically in Super all they have to do is think about getting mad and boom they jump about 10 levels in power. I don't see how Vegeta getting God Ki from training with Whis is an asspull, its Whis come on now.

Just because Trunks is a fan favorite (he's my 2nd favorite DB character by the way) means nothing sorry, he doesn't get any special treatment no matter how well written he is. No character should.

As a JoJo fan, I will always prefer a characters technique and personal abilities being used in a fight over punching really really hard. One Piece can have characters win from technique and intelligence alone, Nami and Usopp's entire characters are almost written that way. Ajay has an extensive guide and channel detailing Super's animation, it's not great 24/7.

So Power level's are still important in OP, people would go crazy if Luffy just beat someone out of his league with the power of friendship, hope, or rage. And I've already seen Ajay's guide its pretty good, but I also watch the show; so I can see for myself where Super's animation ranges from, which is subpar to average.

But for what the last two arcs have been compared to many other long running shonen COUGH*NARUTO*COUGH.

Don't know what your trying to say here its pretty much universal opinion DB is better than Naruto.

And I'm not ever gonna try and compare Super to Hunter X Hunter in term of quality. But Gon's descent the entire arc into despair after what happens to Kite I took as his character development and his build up into his Nen Unleashed form.

Good Super isn't even a quarter as good and I guess we have two different interpertations.

I am trying to compare Trunks a few months after the Goku Black arc to the asspulls and retcons in Z a few months after they happened. It's all about perspective.

Ok

[VegettoEX]

It was just to make Future Trunks cool and give the fangirls a awesome goodbye.

I'm not a girl.

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[nato25]

One of my reasons why I hate Future Trunks' SSJRage form is because of the huge and I mean huuuuge jump in power and skipping shiz, when it came to Vegeta I was ok since he was training a good while with Whis and with Goku before he got it, but Trunks got it outta nowhere, he skipped SSJ3/SSJG/SSJB and made his own fcking new form that for some reason looked above SSJB Goku and Vegeta for a good while, I cannot take this asspull but thankfully Future Trunks is gone and hopefully he doesnt return again.

I liked Trunks before, but with all the hype and asspull they gave him outta nowhere I came to hate his character and entire existence in the franchise as a whole.

SSJ had this whole hype of it being an actual thing before Goku getting it.
SSJ2 was hyped as well when Goku showed full confidence in Gohan and saying he saw that potential in him as early in the DBZ he was already someone that we knew would get a power beyond Goku.
SSJ3 Goku explained how he got it and trained to get it, either it was from rage or from training in the other world who knows? but I still dont see it as an asspull
Mystic was a hell of an asspull but at least it wasnt a huge jump in power, its like a better version of a SSJ3 for hybrids
SSJG well this was an asspull but Beerus already mentioned it over and over before SSJG actually made an appearance
SSJB is a mastered version of SSJG, they trained to maintain the form and gain the God ki.
SSJRage fcking came outta nowhere with no hype at all, we didnt even know it was coming nor a sign that it was gonna be a thing, its just that Trunks jumped in power to keep him relevant and the hero in his arc.

That's a really good point you make about Vegeta. So Vegeta trained his ass off with Whis for 6 months (I think this amount of time was mentioned in Super before Goku gets the phone call and joins him, please correct me if I'm wrong) or so to achieve SSB and Trunks achieved a similar level of power with one rage boost, hugely diminishing the value of effort within the series. That's not to say rage boost over effort hasn't been in the series before but the story normally foreshadows those boost as mentioned in all your points above.

[NintendoBlaze53]

Holy shit... Of course there is a huge difference in terms of story telling.

Super Saiyan
The whole Namek saga was about Frieza being afraid about a Saiyan reaching it and all the Vegeta talk... Goku got it through rage

Super Saiyan 2
Ever since RoSaT the goal was to surpass the limits of Super Saiyan... Trunks and Vegeta did it wrong... Goku couldn't do it besides mastering Super Saiyan but he knew Gohan could make it... Again at least we already at this time we knew it is "beyond" Super Saiyan even if we hadn't a name for it

Super Saiyan 3
I give you this one and it came out of nowhere... While some people like it, I do not... Still Goku "explained" what it is a bit and we got TONS of character reactions to it and how Goku was even able to go beyond.

Ultimate Gohan
I hate this "transformation" cuz like shown even in GT it brought problems with it... Still Elder Kai explained it what the fuck he has done

Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
This one is tricky and again a problem in Super... But at least Vegeta had to trained under a god ki master ala Whis for a damn long time to master his ki and learn god ki.

....

But maybe there is hope that Gohan will reach this strange Ikari form as well and we will get explained... But I doubt... Most likely they will make him blue or Ultimate with some unique hair color again... But I hope this time with an explanation

I pretty much agree with you on all this part that I quoted. I guess all we can do is hope Super will explain Ikari in some form later down the line. Super isn't done so there is always room for a explanation.

I do completely agree with Ikari having no weight though. No one even acknowledges Trunks power boost or new look..... Yeah that's pretty bad writing... And if Trunks was made just for fangirls, then like VegettoEX said, I'm not a girl.

SSJ3 Goku explained how he got it and trained to get it, either it was from rage or from training in the other world who knows? but I still dont see it as an asspull
SSJRage fcking came outta nowhere with no hype at all, we didnt even know it was coming nor a sign that it was gonna be a thing, its just that Trunks jumped in power to keep him relevant and the hero in his arc.

I recommend you go back and read the two chapters of DB where SSj3 debuts. I did yesterday. Goku doesn't explain how he got it or trained to get it. It just happens. With no hype. We didn't know it was coming since two chapters earlier he said "We can't beat Buu without fusing" and two chapters before that. Quote. "Kuririn: Goku you're the only one who can beat him" "Goku: No I can't beat do it. Vegeta was just as strong as me....and he didn't even phase Buu. Sorry, but I don't have a chance."
Mystic also took Gohan from getting 1-shotted by Fat Buu to toying with Super Buu. Is that not a huge jump?

[The Patrolman]

Because Goku and Gohan earn their moments. Goku losing Krillin and Gohan not being able to save 16 made them angry enough to reach the power that they needed. I'm sorry but what Trunks did doesn't resonate. Oh Black and Zamasu mocked him so thats how he became an SSR (the whole name is also dumb as hell and still makes no sense). Oh Bulma got hurt and that cause his PTSD and suddenly mastered the Mafuba where it took Goku a day to master. And the less I talk about his moment where he cut Zamasu in half the better