What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

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What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:57 pm

I'm not looking for obvious things like the main villain or whatever, but rather the details. For example, Toriyama's outlines most likely had Goku becoming 10x stronger than Vegeta in the Hit fight since Toei had him use Kaioken x10 and Toyo had Vegeta lose 90% of his power.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby The gr » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:09 pm

Interesting thread and you forgot that goku encounters the time skip and he did a Kamehameha against hit and goku forfeited because hit is not allowed to use killing techniques in both the manga and anime is safe to say those are part of toriyama outline
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby Acetona » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:00 pm

There's also that thing about Goku never kissing before :lol:
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby DBZ Macky » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:04 pm

"Include a 10% line and fuck up the power scale"
-Toriyama Akira's Outline, 2015

We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power and then in the Manga, we have SS Goku faring better than SSB Vegeta at 10%, essentially making SSB a ~500x "multiplier".
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby iAnimationLover_ » Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:04 am

DBZ Macky wrote:
We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power



Wasnt that a mis-translation? Didnt he actually say 1%?

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby DBZ Macky » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:32 am

iAnimationLover_ wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power

Wasnt that a mis-translation? Didnt he actually say 1%?

Nope, pretty much the opposite, actually. The original Japanese version had the 10% line or "ichi-wari". The speedsubs translated it as 1%.
So 10% is accurate.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby iAnimationLover_ » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:29 am

DBZ Macky wrote:
iAnimationLover_ wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power

Wasnt that a mis-translation? Didnt he actually say 1%?

Nope, pretty much the opposite, actually. The original Japanese version had the 10% line or "ichi-wari". The speedsubs translated it as 1%.
So 10% is accurate.



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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:42 am

Things we know:
Base Goku/Vegeta<Final form Frost/Piccolo<SSJ Vegeta/Goku

Frost is strongest but Goku can at least touch him in base.

Trunks gets a power up of some kind and is comparable to Goku/Vegeta

Dabura/Trunks fight was tough

Vegeta is supposed to at some point both beat on Black and lose to him. Anime made vegeta suddenly get a lot stronger, manga made Black possible hold back.

Black at some point allows someone to beat on him to get stronger. Seems to be Vegeta in the manga and Goku in the anime. Although both has Black get SSR from Vegeta.

Black is really strong. Zamasu, not so much.

Goku never kissed Chichi?? Maybe but he also don't forget things in the manga.

Senzu beans doesn't make it to the battlefield for whatever reason.

Vegeta and Trunks train together.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby Doctor. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:46 am

TheMikado wrote:Vegeta is supposed to at some point both beat on Black and lose to him. Anime made vegeta suddenly get a lot stronger, manga made Black possible hold back.

Black at some point allows someone to beat on him to get stronger.


I think these plot points are simply "Vegeta fights Black. Black lets Vegeta beat him up before powering up and defeating him."

In the anime, it would be the equivalent of base Black toying with Vegeta, then going Rosé.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:55 am

DBZ Macky wrote:"Include a 10% line and fuck up the power scale"
-Toriyama Akira's Outline, 2015

We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power and then in the Manga, we have SS Goku faring better than SSB Vegeta at 10%, essentially making SSB a ~500x "multiplier".

This is why you never place an upper limit on a character's power when you're not sure how strong you want them to be. Such things may make sense at the time (Neither of those really make sense, but whatever), but could completely screw you later on.

I don't know how Toyo thought making SSBlue only 10x stronger than SSJ was a good idea, though. Since there's no Kaioken in the manga, SSBlue is probably at least somewhat close to Beerus in terms of power, let's say maybe 66%, in that case Vegetto would easily stomp Beerus like he's nothing using only SSJ.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:40 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:"Include a 10% line and fuck up the power scale"
-Toriyama Akira's Outline, 2015

We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power and then in the Manga, we have SS Goku faring better than SSB Vegeta at 10%, essentially making SSB a ~500x "multiplier".

This is why you never place an upper limit on a character's power when you're not sure how strong you want them to be. Such things may make sense at the time (Neither of those really make sense, but whatever), but could completely screw you later on.

I don't know how Toyo thought making SSBlue only 10x stronger than SSJ was a good idea, though. Since there's no Kaioken in the manga, SSBlue is probably at least somewhat close to Beerus in terms of power, let's say maybe 66%, in that case Vegetto would easily stomp Beerus like he's nothing using only SSJ.


But it makes rageta make more sense at least

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby The gr » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:44 am

TheMikado wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:"Include a 10% line and fuck up the power scale"
-Toriyama Akira's Outline, 2015

We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power and then in the Manga, we have SS Goku faring better than SSB Vegeta at 10%, essentially making SSB a ~500x "multiplier".

This is why you never place an upper limit on a character's power when you're not sure how strong you want them to be. Such things may make sense at the time (Neither of those really make sense, but whatever), but could completely screw you later on.

I don't know how Toyo thought making SSBlue only 10x stronger than SSJ was a good idea, though. Since there's no Kaioken in the manga, SSBlue is probably at least somewhat close to Beerus in terms of power, let's say maybe 66%, in that case Vegetto would easily stomp Beerus like he's nothing using only SSJ.


But it makes rageta make more sense at least
my gosh the power scaling is all over the place in DB super manga and rageta that scene made no sense whatsoever
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:59 pm

I don't know anyone else who thinks that SSB is x10 SSJ though. It was never stated as such.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby Doctor. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:01 pm

TheMikado wrote:I don't know anyone else who thinks that SSB is x10 SSJ though. It was never stated as such.

Hit easily defeats a weaken SSB Vegeta. SSJ Goku and Hit are equal, with Hit barely having the advantage, this was stated and demonstrated in the fight itself. Since Vegeta was at 10%, this makes full-power SSB Vegeta only 10x stronger than SSJ Goku.

The Hit fight is a complete mess in both mediums.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:06 pm

Doctor. wrote:
TheMikado wrote:I don't know anyone else who thinks that SSB is x10 SSJ though. It was never stated as such.

Hit easily defeats a weaken SSB Vegeta. SSJ Goku and Hit are equal, with Hit barely having the advantage, this was stated and demonstrated in the fight itself. Since Vegeta was at 10%, this makes full-power SSB Vegeta only 10x stronger than SSJ Goku.

The Hit fight is a complete mess in both mediums.

This doesn't make sense because SSG would have demolished Hit if that's the case. Why would he even need to go SSB if he was both physically stronger and could break his Time skip by a wide margin?

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby Doctor. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:07 pm

TheMikado wrote:This doesn't make sense because SSG would have demolished Hit if that's the case.


Just proving Toyotaro's incompetence.

TheMikado wrote:Why would he even need to go SSB if he was both physically stronger and could break his Time skip by a wide margin?

Hit wasn't at full power before Goku went SSG. Doesn't really make a difference, SSG Goku > SSJ Goku > Suppressed Hit > SSB Vegeta
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:09 pm

Doctor. wrote:
TheMikado wrote:This doesn't make sense because SSG would have demolished Hit if that's the case.


Just proving Toyotaro's incompetence.

TheMikado wrote:Why would he even need to go SSB if he was both physically stronger and could break his Time skip by a wide margin?

Hit wasn't at full power before Goku went SSG.


Ok...? I'm just saying logically people keep misinterpreting an ambiguous line and stating it as fact when basic logic will be enough to determine that was not what it meant at all.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby Doctor. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:11 pm

TheMikado wrote:Ok...? I'm just saying logically people keep misinterpreting an ambiguous line and stating it as fact when basic logic will be enough to determine that was not what it meant at all.

Ambiguous? Now you're just damage controlling, Beerus clearly stated Super Saiyan Goku was stronger and Hit only kept up because Goku lost stamina countering the time-skip. There's nothing to misinterpret here, it's clear as day what's being portrayed. Super Saiyan Goku was physically stronger than the suppressed Hit who beat SSB Vegeta at 10%. Which means that Blue is around a 10x increase over Super Saiyan.

It's really clear as day.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:14 pm

Doctor. wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Ok...? I'm just saying logically people keep misinterpreting an ambiguous line and stating it as fact when basic logic will be enough to determine that was not what it meant at all.

Ambiguous? Now you're just damage controlling, Beerus clearly stated Super Saiyan Goku was stronger and Hit only kept up because Goku lost stamina countering the time-skip. There's nothing to misinterpret here, it's clear as day what's being portrayed. Super Saiyan Goku was physically stronger than the suppressed Hit who beat SSB Vegeta at 10%. Which means that Blue is around a 10x increase over Super Saiyan.

It's really clear as day.


Except you're not making the link between SSJ and SSB. While can't they both be stronger with SSB even at 10% being substantially stronger? No one said Vegeta was weaker than SSJ Goku.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby Lord Beerus » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:15 pm

Toriyama's did not think his plot outline through considering the both the anime and manga fumble the Hit fight, with the anime being the lesser of the two evils, and include the nonsensical Time Paradox origin of Goku Black. He's also show he's not above dumb gags, even if they can interpreted as being detrimental to a character, such as Goku never kissing Chi Chi.


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