What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby Doctor. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:19 pm

TheMikado wrote:No one said Vegeta was weaker than SSJ Goku.

Vegeta was bleeding from Hit's attacks. He wouldn't be affected if he was stronger than Hit. There's no line about Hit attacking vitals in the manga if I recall correctly, either.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:21 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Toriyama's did not think his plot outline through considering the both the anime and manga fumble the Hit fight, with the anime being the lesser of the two evils, and include the nonsensical Time Paradox origin of Goku Black. He's also show he's not above dumb gags, even if they can interpreted as being detrimental to a character, such as Goku never kissing Chi Chi.


I disagree on which is the lesser of two evils but is clear the anime make Hit too strong at SSBxKKx10 levels while the manga made Hit too weak at sub SSJ levels.
That time skip not working on strong opponents is in both and likely a Toriyama piece and the only thing that "breaks" the manga levels but I ignore that because it's clear it still works on strong opponents just not as effectively which is what Whis actually says I believe, not that it doesn't work at all.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby MisteryOne » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:22 pm

I don't think the outline is detailed at all considering that Toei skipped SS Black, who was probably not on the outline and maybe was just a note, or that Toyo keeps bringing SSG back (which is something good IMO, but that was clearly not Toriyama's intention).
Regarding Black Rosé, him being SS3 tier in base yet having a Blue form so he will always be 400x Goku/Vegeta fucked the power scale so hard, yet it was probably because of the outline. Vegeta beating him would never make sense without Black holding back (that being said, the anime did it even worse, not only because of Black being already SSB tier in base, but because of Vegeta getting such a gigantic power boost from 6 months in the ROSAT).This pretty much shows that Toriyama doesn't really care about power consistency and it's only writing general aspects of the story as well as certain dialogs (Goku vs Hit, Vegeta vs Cabba, Frost being way stronger than Piccolo, Vegeta beating Black,etc).

Doctor. wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Ok...? I'm just saying logically people keep misinterpreting an ambiguous line and stating it as fact when basic logic will be enough to determine that was not what it meant at all.

Ambiguous? Now you're just damage controlling, Beerus clearly stated Super Saiyan Goku was stronger and Hit only kept up because Goku lost stamina countering the time-skip. There's nothing to misinterpret here, it's clear as day what's being portrayed. Super Saiyan Goku was physically stronger than the suppressed Hit who beat SSB Vegeta at 10%. Which means that Blue is around a 10x increase over Super Saiyan.

It's really clear as day.

Didn't Hit's timeskip still work on Vegeta Blue? Since the timeskip still worked on SS Goku who was stronger than Hit I don't see why Vegeta Blue can't be way stronger than Hit yet still affected by the timeskip.I mean, what is the reason to think that Vegeta Blue is pretty much like SS Goku? Since Timeskip worked on a stronger opponent (something that I think contradicts what Whis said btw, so the battle is not consistent at all no matter how you look at it) is possible than timeskip can work against opponents until a certain level? Like SS Goku is a 1, SSB 10% is a 20 for example and SSG is a 70, and timeskip only work against 50 level opponents (completely random numbers of course). So Hit would still be able to defeat Vegeta because of his timeskip not because of raw power.

I can be wrong trough, I don't really remember the entire of the battle.
Last edited by MisteryOne on Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Universe Survival Arc won't live the hype. The only Super arc that has actually been as good as people trough it was going to be was the Zamasu arc, which actually was millions of times better than what everyone trough, because the idea of an evil Goku in Trunk's future didn't seen like a good idea at all. But in the end it was fantastic.

Bringing back the SS-SS2-SS3 forms was a huge mistake.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:23 pm

MisteryOne wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Ok...? I'm just saying logically people keep misinterpreting an ambiguous line and stating it as fact when basic logic will be enough to determine that was not what it meant at all.

Ambiguous? Now you're just damage controlling, Beerus clearly stated Super Saiyan Goku was stronger and Hit only kept up because Goku lost stamina countering the time-skip. There's nothing to misinterpret here, it's clear as day what's being portrayed. Super Saiyan Goku was physically stronger than the suppressed Hit who beat SSB Vegeta at 10%. Which means that Blue is around a 10x increase over Super Saiyan.

It's really clear as day.

Didn't Hit's timeskip still work on Vegeta Blue? Since the timeskip still worked on SS Goku who was stronger than Hit I don't see why Vegeta Blue can't be way stronger than Hit yet still affected by the timeskip.I mean, what is the reason to think that Vegeta Blue is pretty much like SS Goku? Since Timeskip worked on a stronger opponent (something that I think contradicts what Whis said btw, so the battle is not consistent at all no matter how you look at it) is possible than timeskip can work against opponents until a certain level? Like SS Goku is a 1, SSB 10% is a 20 for example and SSG is a 70, and timeskip only work against 50 level opponents (completely random numbers of course). So Hit would still be able to defeat Vegeta because of his timeskip not because of raw power.

I can be wrong trough, I don't really remember the entire of the battle.


Exactly this is how I interpreted it and what Whis said. That the stronger the opponent is the less effective it is, not that it wouldn't work.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby Doctor. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:26 pm

MisteryOne wrote:Didn't Hit's timeskip still work on Vegeta Blue? Since the timeskip still worked on SS Goku who was stronger than Hit I don't see why Vegeta Blue can't be way stronger than Hit yet still affected by the timeskip.I mean, what is the reason to think that Vegeta Blue is pretty much like SS Goku? Since Timeskip worked on a stronger opponent (something that I think contradicts what Whis said btw, so the battle is not consistent at all no matter how you look at it) is possible than timeskip can work against opponents until a certain level? Like SS Goku is a 1, SSB 10% is a 20 for example and SSG is a 70, and timeskip only work against 50 level opponents (completely random numbers of course). So Hit would still be able to defeat Vegeta because of his timeskip not because of raw power.

I can be wrong trough, I don't really remember the entire of the battle.

Again, Vegeta bled from Hit's attacks and Goku didn't (I think). It's established in Dragon Ball that if you're way above your opponent, then you're barely fazed by their hits.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:29 pm

Doctor. wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:Didn't Hit's timeskip still work on Vegeta Blue? Since the timeskip still worked on SS Goku who was stronger than Hit I don't see why Vegeta Blue can't be way stronger than Hit yet still affected by the timeskip.I mean, what is the reason to think that Vegeta Blue is pretty much like SS Goku? Since Timeskip worked on a stronger opponent (something that I think contradicts what Whis said btw, so the battle is not consistent at all no matter how you look at it) is possible than timeskip can work against opponents until a certain level? Like SS Goku is a 1, SSB 10% is a 20 for example and SSG is a 70, and timeskip only work against 50 level opponents (completely random numbers of course). So Hit would still be able to defeat Vegeta because of his timeskip not because of raw power.

I can be wrong trough, I don't really remember the entire of the battle.

Again, Vegeta bled from Hit's attacks and Goku didn't (I think). It's established in Dragon Ball that if you're way above your opponent, then you're barely fazed by their hits.


Except that's not the case because we've seen weaker opponents hurt higher level characters unexpectedly. There's nothing logically directly linking SSJ to SSB being that low. Especially when we know Hit uses assassin techniques in both mediums.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:29 pm

Doctor. wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:Didn't Hit's timeskip still work on Vegeta Blue? Since the timeskip still worked on SS Goku who was stronger than Hit I don't see why Vegeta Blue can't be way stronger than Hit yet still affected by the timeskip.I mean, what is the reason to think that Vegeta Blue is pretty much like SS Goku? Since Timeskip worked on a stronger opponent (something that I think contradicts what Whis said btw, so the battle is not consistent at all no matter how you look at it) is possible than timeskip can work against opponents until a certain level? Like SS Goku is a 1, SSB 10% is a 20 for example and SSG is a 70, and timeskip only work against 50 level opponents (completely random numbers of course). So Hit would still be able to defeat Vegeta because of his timeskip not because of raw power.

I can be wrong trough, I don't really remember the entire of the battle.

Again, Vegeta bled from Hit's attacks and Goku didn't (I think). It's established in Dragon Ball that if you're way above your opponent, then you're barely fazed by their hits.

Also, the timeskip only works on people who are near or below Hit's level as stated by Whis, if Vegeta was much stronger he'd break it like SSGod Goku.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby Doctor. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:31 pm

TheMikado wrote:Except that's not the case because we've seen weaker opponents hurt higher level characters unexpectedly. There's nothing logically directly linking SSJ to SSB being that low. Especially when we know Hit uses assassin techniques in both mediums.

Yes, unexpectedly, there's the keyword. There was nothing unexpected about it, Vegeta was with his guard up. Yes there is, both 10% SSB and SSJ can't break the timeskip. It was also never stated in the manga that Hit attacks the vitals.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:33 pm

Doctor. wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Except that's not the case because we've seen weaker opponents hurt higher level characters unexpectedly. There's nothing logically directly linking SSJ to SSB being that low. Especially when we know Hit uses assassin techniques in both mediums.

Yes, unexpectedly, there's the keyword. There was nothing unexpected about it, Vegeta was with his guard up. Yes there is, both 10% SSB and SSJ can't break the timeskip. It was also never stated in the manga that Hit attacks the vitals.

This is what ultimately proves it. Whis specified that they had to be close to Hit's level or the timeskip wouldn't function properly, and since SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit that doesn't leave a lot of room for Vegeta to be even stronger.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby MisteryOne » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:37 pm

Doctor. wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:Didn't Hit's timeskip still work on Vegeta Blue? Since the timeskip still worked on SS Goku who was stronger than Hit I don't see why Vegeta Blue can't be way stronger than Hit yet still affected by the timeskip.I mean, what is the reason to think that Vegeta Blue is pretty much like SS Goku? Since Timeskip worked on a stronger opponent (something that I think contradicts what Whis said btw, so the battle is not consistent at all no matter how you look at it) is possible than timeskip can work against opponents until a certain level? Like SS Goku is a 1, SSB 10% is a 20 for example and SSG is a 70, and timeskip only work against 50 level opponents (completely random numbers of course). So Hit would still be able to defeat Vegeta because of his timeskip not because of raw power.

I can be wrong trough, I don't really remember the entire of the battle.

Again, Vegeta bled from Hit's attacks and Goku didn't (I think). It's established in Dragon Ball that if you're way above your opponent, then you're barely fazed by their hits.

And Hit surely could not be holding back against Goku, specially considering that he told him to transform into Blue?

Also, enraged Vegeta made Beerus bleed in the anime, so that pretty much confirms SS2 Rageta>Blue with that logic.
The Universe Survival Arc won't live the hype. The only Super arc that has actually been as good as people trough it was going to be was the Zamasu arc, which actually was millions of times better than what everyone trough, because the idea of an evil Goku in Trunk's future didn't seen like a good idea at all. But in the end it was fantastic.

Bringing back the SS-SS2-SS3 forms was a huge mistake.

English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby MisteryOne » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:38 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Except that's not the case because we've seen weaker opponents hurt higher level characters unexpectedly. There's nothing logically directly linking SSJ to SSB being that low. Especially when we know Hit uses assassin techniques in both mediums.

Yes, unexpectedly, there's the keyword. There was nothing unexpected about it, Vegeta was with his guard up. Yes there is, both 10% SSB and SSJ can't break the timeskip. It was also never stated in the manga that Hit attacks the vitals.

This is what ultimately proves it. Whis specified that they had to be close to Hit's level or the timeskip wouldn't function properly, and since SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit that doesn't leave a lot of room for Vegeta to be even stronger.

Whis said that it only works in people EQUAL or weaker than Hit, not near.Yet SS Goku surpass him according to Beerus. So either Beerus or Whis were bullshiting, but again, nothing shows Blue Vegeta being close to SS Goku.
The Universe Survival Arc won't live the hype. The only Super arc that has actually been as good as people trough it was going to be was the Zamasu arc, which actually was millions of times better than what everyone trough, because the idea of an evil Goku in Trunk's future didn't seen like a good idea at all. But in the end it was fantastic.

Bringing back the SS-SS2-SS3 forms was a huge mistake.

English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby Doctor. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:40 pm

MisteryOne wrote:And Hit surely could not be holding back against Goku, specially considering that he told him to transform into Blue?

Also, enraged Vegeta made Beerus bleed in the anime, so that pretty much confirms SS2 Rageta>Blue with that logic.

Why would he if he wanted to win the fight? He was holding back, as he uses his full power later against SSG Goku, but he seemed to have been using the fullest extent of his "suppressed" power from the start.

The 10% line and SSB Kaioken does have to make it so that enraged Vegeta is somewhere near the SSBs, so that's not far-fetched at all.

Anyway, again, both SSJ Goku and 10% SSB Vegeta have to be around the same level of strength or the timeskip wouldn't work on one of them.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:41 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Except that's not the case because we've seen weaker opponents hurt higher level characters unexpectedly. There's nothing logically directly linking SSJ to SSB being that low. Especially when we know Hit uses assassin techniques in both mediums.

Yes, unexpectedly, there's the keyword. There was nothing unexpected about it, Vegeta was with his guard up. Yes there is, both 10% SSB and SSJ can't break the timeskip. It was also never stated in the manga that Hit attacks the vitals.

This is what ultimately proves it. Whis specified that they had to be close to Hit's level or the timeskip wouldn't function properly, and since SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit that doesn't leave a lot of room for Vegeta to be even stronger.


Which again doesn't make sense using the exact things you just said if SSJ was already stronger than Hit it shouldn't have worked on him. But it does implying Goku isn't strong enough to break it. So the Whis statement is wrong. The Vegeta power level is less than 10% of full power if SSG was "just now at the level to break it" SSG could be a 10, Vegeta could have been a 9 and SSJ could have been a 1. The point I'm making is there's nothing to indicate the direct relationship between SSJ and SSB.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:41 pm

MisteryOne wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Yes, unexpectedly, there's the keyword. There was nothing unexpected about it, Vegeta was with his guard up. Yes there is, both 10% SSB and SSJ can't break the timeskip. It was also never stated in the manga that Hit attacks the vitals.

This is what ultimately proves it. Whis specified that they had to be close to Hit's level or the timeskip wouldn't function properly, and since SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit that doesn't leave a lot of room for Vegeta to be even stronger.

Whis said that it only works in people EQUAL or weaker than Hit, not near.Yet SS Goku surpass him according to Beerus. So either Beerus or Whis were bullshiting, but again, nothing shows Blue Vegeta being close to SS Goku.

The Viz translation says near, not equal, and it's the official English translation.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:42 pm

TheMikado wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Yes, unexpectedly, there's the keyword. There was nothing unexpected about it, Vegeta was with his guard up. Yes there is, both 10% SSB and SSJ can't break the timeskip. It was also never stated in the manga that Hit attacks the vitals.

This is what ultimately proves it. Whis specified that they had to be close to Hit's level or the timeskip wouldn't function properly, and since SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit that doesn't leave a lot of room for Vegeta to be even stronger.


Which again doesn't make sense using the exact things you just said if SSJ was already stronger than Hit it shouldn't have worked on him. But it does implying Goku isn't strong enough to break it. So the Whis statement is wrong. The Vegeta power level is less than 10% of full power if SSG was "just now at the level to break it" SSG could be a 10, Vegeta could have been a 9 and SSJ could have been a 1. The point I'm making is there's nothing to indicate the direct relationship between SSJ and SSB.

"Near" doesn't mean 9x stronger, if Hit & SSJ Goku are 1 and 1.1, Vegeta would be 1.1 at best.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby dbgtFO » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:44 pm

It's not like they gave Vegeta's power as exactly 10% either.. Whis said not even 10%, which makes it uncertain and the use of 'near to Hit's power' doesn't come with any certainties either, so it's 2 uncertainties, some people have managed to turn into absolute certainty as per usual.
Crap debating like that is why people tend to frown over battle power discussions.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:46 pm

dbgtFO wrote:It's not like they gave Vegeta's power as exactly 10% either.. Whis said not even 10%, which makes it uncertain and the use if near to Hit's power doesn't come with any certainties either, so it's 2 uncertainties, some people have managed to turn into absolute certainty as per usual.
Crap debating like that is why people tend to frown over battle power discussions.

The anime had Goku use Kaioken x10, so we know Toriyama specified Goku being 10x stronger than Vegeta.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:46 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:This is what ultimately proves it. Whis specified that they had to be close to Hit's level or the timeskip wouldn't function properly, and since SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit that doesn't leave a lot of room for Vegeta to be even stronger.


Which again doesn't make sense using the exact things you just said if SSJ was already stronger than Hit it shouldn't have worked on him. But it does implying Goku isn't strong enough to break it. So the Whis statement is wrong. The Vegeta power level is less than 10% of full power if SSG was "just now at the level to break it" SSG could be a 10, Vegeta could have been a 9 and SSJ could have been a 1. The point I'm making is there's nothing to indicate the direct relationship between SSJ and SSB.

"Near" doesn't mean 9x stronger, if Hit & SSJ Goku are 1 and 1.1, Vegeta would be 1.1 at best.


So then SSG is a 1.2? Because they also said he "just" reached the point when it wasn't effective With Goku as SSG.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby Doctor. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:47 pm

dbgtFO wrote:It's not like they gave Vegeta's power as exactly 10% either.. Whis said not even 10%, which makes it uncertain and the use of 'near to Hit's power' doesn't come with any certainties either, so it's 2 uncertainties, some people have managed to turn into absolute certainty as per usual.
Crap debating like that is why people tend to frown over battle power discussions.

It doesn't really matter if it's an uncertainty or not. The numbers are there so the fans get a proper idea of how the characters stack. Vegeta also says Goku is "over 8,000" but most battle power discussions just use 8,000 to simplify things. Saying "near" means the difference is almost insignifcant, so we can safely round it up.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:48 pm

dbgtFO wrote:It's not like they gave Vegeta's power as exactly 10% either.. Whis said not even 10%, which makes it uncertain and the use of 'near to Hit's power' doesn't come with any certainties either, so it's 2 uncertainties, some people have managed to turn into absolute certainty as per usual.
Crap debating like that is why people tend to frown over battle power discussions.


Exactly, we somehow got SSB is x10 SSJ from using approximate terms like "near" and "not even" and turned it into a concrete formula some kind of way.
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