What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:48 pm

TheMikado wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Which again doesn't make sense using the exact things you just said if SSJ was already stronger than Hit it shouldn't have worked on him. But it does implying Goku isn't strong enough to break it. So the Whis statement is wrong. The Vegeta power level is less than 10% of full power if SSG was "just now at the level to break it" SSG could be a 10, Vegeta could have been a 9 and SSJ could have been a 1. The point I'm making is there's nothing to indicate the direct relationship between SSJ and SSB.

"Near" doesn't mean 9x stronger, if Hit & SSJ Goku are 1 and 1.1, Vegeta would be 1.1 at best.


So then SSG is a 1.2? Because they also said he "just" reached the point when it wasn't effective With Goku as SSG.

He didn't say "just", Whis said "Goku's power has become far superior to that of Hit's."

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:51 pm

Image
This is the panel where he explains the timeskip.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby Doctor. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:52 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Image
This is the panel where he explains the timeskip.

Yeah, this is pretty conclusive. We're not the ones trying to twist things here.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:52 pm

^ I will have to look for these scans but I'm pretty sure it said something along the lines of just now surpassing Hit in the translation I read.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby dbgtFO » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:53 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:The anime had Goku use Kaioken x10, so we know Toriyama specified Goku being 10x stronger than Vegeta.

We know fuck all. At best you can make an educated guess.
Doctor. wrote:It doesn't really matter if it's an uncertainty or not. The numbers are there so the fans get a proper idea of how the characters stack. Vegeta also says Goku is "over 8,000" but most battle power discussions just use 8,000 to simplify things. Saying "near" means the difference is almost insignifcant, so we can safely round it up.

Nope. Back then we had specific numbers to compare to, now we just have a word, which no one here has any authority to claim means x gap or y gap.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby MisteryOne » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:54 pm

Doctor. wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:And Hit surely could not be holding back against Goku, specially considering that he told him to transform into Blue?

Also, enraged Vegeta made Beerus bleed in the anime, so that pretty much confirms SS2 Rageta>Blue with that logic.

Why would he if he wanted to win the fight? He was holding back, as he uses his full power later against SSG Goku, but he seemed to have been using the fullest extent of his "suppressed" power from the start.

The 10% line and SSB Kaioken does have to make it so that enraged Vegeta is somewhere near the SSBs, so that's not far-fetched at all.

Anyway, again, both SSJ Goku and 10% SSB Vegeta have to be around the same level of strength or the timeskip wouldn't work on one of them.

Because he can't kill his opponent? Is the same reason because he didn't oneshoted base Goku in both anime and manga. Or now are you saying that SS Goku is not a x50 boost any more? Hel, Hit even smiled and was interested in Goku being able to keep with him. I don't see why he would not hold back.

Enraged Vegeta can't be near the SSB is we follow your logic, at least the SSB from Champa arc. Rageta is 10% of Beerus yet Blue x10 is not at the level of Beerus. Goku has also gotten at least 10 times stronger since then by the time he faces Hit again yet he hasn't showed to be near Beerus. If Blue is indeed the gigantic boost that it was supposed to be on the films compared to pre-BOG Goku, we're probably speaking about the biggest rage boost on the entire franchise. Anyway this definetly proves that Rageta is stronger than SSBs in the anime, which makes the SSG ritual really stupid.

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:This is what ultimately proves it. Whis specified that they had to be close to Hit's level or the timeskip wouldn't function properly, and since SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit that doesn't leave a lot of room for Vegeta to be even stronger.

Whis said that it only works in people EQUAL or weaker than Hit, not near.Yet SS Goku surpass him according to Beerus. So either Beerus or Whis were bullshiting, but again, nothing shows Blue Vegeta being close to SS Goku.

The Viz translation says near, not equal, and it's the official English translation.

I see. In that case it definetly fucks up BOG as well as the «I never imagined there were a world like this» from Goku, unless training with Whis has somehow boosted a hell lot their base and SS forms, Vegetto would have done a lot better than SSG Goku.
Last edited by MisteryOne on Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Universe Survival Arc won't live the hype. The only Super arc that has actually been as good as people trough it was going to be was the Zamasu arc, which actually was millions of times better than what everyone trough, because the idea of an evil Goku in Trunk's future didn't seen like a good idea at all. But in the end it was fantastic.

Bringing back the SS-SS2-SS3 forms was a huge mistake.

English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:54 pm

TheMikado wrote:^ I will have to look for these scans but I'm pretty sure it said something along the lines of just now surpassing Hit in the translation I read.

Probably a fan translation. The official Viz translation, which you can read for free, has that panel.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:57 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:The anime had Goku use Kaioken x10, so we know Toriyama specified Goku being 10x stronger than Vegeta.

We know fuck all. At best you can make an educated guess.

Both the manga and the anime ultimately result in SSBlue Goku becoming 10x stronger than SSBlue Vegeta, what other conclusion could you arrive at?

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby Doctor. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:57 pm

MisteryOne wrote:Because he can't kill his opponent? Is the same reason because he didn't oneshoted base Goku in both anime and manga. Or now are you saying that SS Goku is not a x50 boost any more? Hel, Hit even smiled and was interested in Goku being able to keep with him. I don't see why he would not hold back.


He was holding back against base Goku but he clearly wasn't against Super Saiyan Goku or else someone would have noted that he was increasing his power throughout the battle. Hit only used his maximum power against SSG Goku because he thought to himself that he was cornered.

MisteryOne wrote:Enraged Vegeta can't be near the SSB is we follow your logic, at least the SSB from Champa arc. Rageta is 10% of Beerus yet Blue x10 is not at the level of Beerus. Goku has also gotten at least 10 times stronger since then by the time he faces Hit again yet he hasn't showed to be near Beerus. If Blue is indeed the gigantic boost that it was supposed to be on the films compared to pre-BOG Goku, we're probably speaking about the biggest rage boost on the entire franchise. Anyway this definetly proves that Rageta is stronger than SSBs in the anime, which makes the SSG ritual really stupid.


Yes...? You're right. That's absolutely the truth. It's moronic but it's what the series portrays. I... don't know what kind of point you're trying to make here.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheMikado » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:00 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
TheMikado wrote:^ I will have to look for these scans but I'm pretty sure it said something along the lines of just now surpassing Hit in the translation I read.

Probably a fan translation. The official Viz translation, which you can read for free, has that panel.


It was probably Hermes which is more reliable in my opinion.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby dbgtFO » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:01 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
TheMikado wrote:^ I will have to look for these scans but I'm pretty sure it said something along the lines of just now surpassing Hit in the translation I read.

Probably a fan translation. The official Viz translation, which you can read for free, has that panel.

Fan translations are not exclusively wrong.
In any case I can't recall the literal translation from Herms, but that seems about accurate.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:The anime had Goku use Kaioken x10, so we know Toriyama specified Goku being 10x stronger than Vegeta.

We know fuck all. At best you can make an educated guess.

Both the manga and the anime ultimately result in SSBlue Goku becoming 10x stronger than SSBlue Vegeta, what other conclusion could you arrive at?

Doesn't matter. We don't know. You can arrive at that conclusion, but as I typed, it's still just an educated guess.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby MisteryOne » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:03 pm

Doctor. wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:Enraged Vegeta can't be near the SSB is we follow your logic, at least the SSB from Champa arc. Rageta is 10% of Beerus yet Blue x10 is not at the level of Beerus. Goku has also gotten at least 10 times stronger since then by the time he faces Hit again yet he hasn't showed to be near Beerus. If Blue is indeed the gigantic boost that it was supposed to be on the films compared to pre-BOG Goku, we're probably speaking about the biggest rage boost on the entire franchise. Anyway this definetly proves that Rageta is stronger than SSBs in the anime, which makes the SSG ritual really stupid.


Yes...? You're right. That's absolutely the truth. It's moronic but it's what the series portrays. I... don't know what kind of point you're trying to make here.

By using that logic, why anyone said anything about Hit sing more power against SS Goku than against base Goku? They should have commented that as well then.

Nothing really specific. Only that in both medias Blues seems to not be as powerful as it was supposed to, specially considering both Rageta and Trunks against Black in ep56. I never considered that possibility.
The Universe Survival Arc won't live the hype. The only Super arc that has actually been as good as people trough it was going to be was the Zamasu arc, which actually was millions of times better than what everyone trough, because the idea of an evil Goku in Trunk's future didn't seen like a good idea at all. But in the end it was fantastic.

Bringing back the SS-SS2-SS3 forms was a huge mistake.

English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:06 pm

MisteryOne wrote:
Doctor. wrote:


Yes...? You're right. That's absolutely the truth. It's moronic but it's what the series portrays. I... don't know what kind of point you're trying to make here.

By using that logic, why anyone said anything about Hit sing more power against SS Goku than against base Goku? They should have commented that as well then.

Nothing really specific. Only that in both medias Blues seems to not be as powerful as it was supposed to, specially considering both Rageta and Trunks against Black in ep56. I never considered that possibility.

They probably wrote these things before Toriyama changed his mind about the 6-10-15 scale.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby MisteryOne » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:13 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:
Doctor. wrote:


Yes...? You're right. That's absolutely the truth. It's moronic but it's what the series portrays. I... don't know what kind of point you're trying to make here.

By using that logic, why anyone said anything about Hit sing more power against SS Goku than against base Goku? They should have commented that as well then.

Nothing really specific. Only that in both medias Blues seems to not be as powerful as it was supposed to, specially considering both Rageta and Trunks against Black in ep56. I never considered that possibility.

They probably wrote these things before Toriyama changed his mind about the 6-10-15 scale.

What things? Blue not being so powerful? I think is the other way around. It seems for some reason Toriyama has nerfed the Blues instead of making Beerus more powerful (His power was retconned in RaoF film anyway), which is pretty dissapointing IMO.
The Universe Survival Arc won't live the hype. The only Super arc that has actually been as good as people trough it was going to be was the Zamasu arc, which actually was millions of times better than what everyone trough, because the idea of an evil Goku in Trunk's future didn't seen like a good idea at all. But in the end it was fantastic.

Bringing back the SS-SS2-SS3 forms was a huge mistake.

English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:17 pm

MisteryOne wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:By using that logic, why anyone said anything about Hit sing more power against SS Goku than against base Goku? They should have commented that as well then.

Nothing really specific. Only that in both medias Blues seems to not be as powerful as it was supposed to, specially considering both Rageta and Trunks against Black in ep56. I never considered that possibility.

They probably wrote these things before Toriyama changed his mind about the 6-10-15 scale.

What things? Blue not being so powerful? I think is the other way around. It seems for some reason Toriyama has nerfed the Blues instead of making Beerus more powerful (His power was retconned in RaoF film anyway), which is pretty dissapointing IMO.

SSBlue was probably an 8 or a 9 on that scale, but due to the use of Kaioken x10 it got dropped below 1 and became weaker than Rageta. Before that it was indeed much stronger than him since he was probably around a 0.5-0.7 at best since suppressed Beerus completely thrashed him.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby MisteryOne » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:10 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:They probably wrote these things before Toriyama changed his mind about the 6-10-15 scale.

What things? Blue not being so powerful? I think is the other way around. It seems for some reason Toriyama has nerfed the Blues instead of making Beerus more powerful (His power was retconned in RaoF film anyway), which is pretty dissapointing IMO.

SSBlue was probably an 8 or a 9 on that scale, but due to the use of Kaioken x10 it got dropped below 1 and became weaker than Rageta. Before that it was indeed much stronger than him since he was probably around a 0.5-0.7 at best since suppressed Beerus completely thrashed him.

The problem is, since there is any official retcon, in the anime continuity Rageta is still stronger than SSB from Champa. Until we have any official word, we can't say for sure the scale has changed. Hell is even possible than Toyotaro made Blue a x10 because he didn't know if SS2 and 3 were still a thing.But looking at how the Black vs Vegeta battle ended, it's probably something he invented at the moment, just like most of Toei writers do.

It looks like Toriyama changed his mind since RoF, where is was pretty much implied that Blue was the new SS. Now, you either have to go with the two base theory in the anime or go with the retcons about both Blue and Beerus power.
The Universe Survival Arc won't live the hype. The only Super arc that has actually been as good as people trough it was going to be was the Zamasu arc, which actually was millions of times better than what everyone trough, because the idea of an evil Goku in Trunk's future didn't seen like a good idea at all. But in the end it was fantastic.

Bringing back the SS-SS2-SS3 forms was a huge mistake.

English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby ekrolo2 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:20 pm

I don't know how involved Toriyama was with the movie retellings in comparison to the purely new stuff but from what we can gather: he wrote the scene of Beerus tasting a meal then blowing half the planet up (not specifying a clear reason since both mediums have their unique explanations), the Freeza being stronger than Base Goku line is there (no fusion line in the manga though), Goku fighting more with SS1 and SS2 is probably a shared thing, SSGod Goku vs Beerus breaking the universe is another one.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheOverlyMadHatter » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:43 pm

"In the penultimate match of the Universe 6 vs Universe 7 tournament, Goku uses that red power up we haven't seen in a while." -Toriyama

All jokes aside, SSG appearing instead of Kaioken in the manga reminded me of those complaints when the form's design was revealed about it being too much like the Kaioken.
Last edited by TheOverlyMadHatter on Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:55 pm

TheOverlyMadHatter wrote:"In the penultimate match of the Universe 6 vs Universe 7 tournament, Goku uses that red power up we haven't seen in a while." -Toriyama

Clever.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Postby lunaticthegame » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:44 pm

I think we should deduce that at least 50% of his details are very vague. It's like if you wanted to know the plot to the Marvel Cinematic Universe but in under 15 minutes. I will just give you the major plot bulletins and go on with my day.

I'm not a person to call Toei lazy or stupid with Dragon Ball Super but Toyotora (Hope I got it right) has more of an understanding of Dragon Ball then they do right now. Though they've changed a few things with Dragon Ball Super (It feels more like the original Dragon Ball and they're starting to take on new anime customs), they seem to fail with some of the smaller detail that hardcore fans seem to never let go of like a 5 year old child or something.

Toyotora was one of those fans and so he tries to write things in the most sense.
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