Is Akira Toriyama trying to make us hate Goku?

[Totamo]

I'm actually looking forward to western and international audiences getting this point.

There is so much complaint about this is how Goku always was or its "true" to his origins.
Fine, Ill accept your premise but I will certainly be interesting to watch the casual fans and audience try to stomach this "original" Goku.
It's easy to say, that's how it should be anyway, but when large audiences of casual viewers are turned off by how a beloved character is portrayed, do you think they are really going to listen to anyone explain why Toei, or the dub royally screwed up their perceptions for years. We can continue to play the game where we act as if this is how the international audiences should have viewed him all along, however when it comes down to its legacy and success with casual crowd I've got a feeling the response wont be nearly as generous.

Do you really think funimation will keep Goku like this?

I have seen the super dub and they are still making goku heroic.

Anyway, no they won't but will it really matter at that point, will change anything?

Goku is like this whether they like it or not, it is what it is

To those fans I say tough and your hope of the universe Goku is on youtube, have fun!

[HeroR]

I'm actually looking forward to western and international audiences getting this point.

There is so much complaint about this is how Goku always was or its "true" to his origins.
Fine, Ill accept your premise but I will certainly be interesting to watch the casual fans and audience try to stomach this "original" Goku.
It's easy to say, that's how it should be anyway, but when large audiences of casual viewers are turned off by how a beloved character is portrayed, do you think they are really going to listen to anyone explain why Toei, or the dub royally screwed up their perceptions for years. We can continue to play the game where we act as if this is how the international audiences should have viewed him all along, however when it comes down to its legacy and success with casual crowd I've got a feeling the response wont be nearly as generous.

Do you really think funimation will keep Goku like this?

I have seen the super dub and they are still making goku heroic.

Anyway, no they won't but will it really matter at that point, will change anything?

Goku is like this whether they like it or not, it is what it is

To those fans I say tough and your hope of the universe Goku is on youtube, have fun!

Funi hasn't made Goku more heroic except for added line in Episode 1. Everything else was in the sub.

[sintzu]

Yes, it seems like he's going out of his way to make him as dislikable as possible.

He made selfish and stupid choices in the manga and original anime but he wasn't unlikable like he is now. you could tell that he at least cared about others but in Super ? nope.

In terms of the Toei and Funimation making him into more of a hero, I'm really happy they did that. it's the best thing they could've done with him cause if he was written as bad as he is now then I don't think I and others would like him as much as we don.

[Totamo]

I'm actually looking forward to western and international audiences getting this point.

There is so much complaint about this is how Goku always was or its "true" to his origins.
Fine, Ill accept your premise but I will certainly be interesting to watch the casual fans and audience try to stomach this "original" Goku.
It's easy to say, that's how it should be anyway, but when large audiences of casual viewers are turned off by how a beloved character is portrayed, do you think they are really going to listen to anyone explain why Toei, or the dub royally screwed up their perceptions for years. We can continue to play the game where we act as if this is how the international audiences should have viewed him all along, however when it comes down to its legacy and success with casual crowd I've got a feeling the response wont be nearly as generous.

Do you really think funimation will keep Goku like this?

I have seen the super dub and they are still making goku heroic.

Anyway, no they won't but will it really matter at that point, will change anything?

Goku is like this whether they like it or not, it is what it is

To those fans I say tough and your hope of the universe Goku is on youtube, have fun!

Funi hasn't made Goku more heroic except for added line in Episode 1. Everything else was in the sub.

Must be me then, because I promise you this guy still feels like superman''

I'm talking about in battle of gods as well. when goku screams i won't let you destroy my world vs his original line don't look down on me.

Thats a significant change and they are going to keep that

[Totamo]

Yes, it seems like he's going out of his way to make him as dislikable as possible.

He made selfish and stupid choices in the manga and original anime but he wasn't unlikable like he is now. you could tell that he at least cared about others but in Super ? nope.

In terms of the Toei and Funimation making him into more of a hero, I'm really happy they did that. it's the best thing they could've done with him cause if he was written as bad as he is now then I don't think I and others would like him as much as we don.

But you also wouldn't have been complaining as much now. There also wouldn't be this stupid war between fandom of those who think goku has always been like this, ala me and people like you, who don't.

Goku is not written badly in super, he is exaggerated at times but thats about it. Just because you don't like his character now doesn't mean he is badly written.

[TheMikado]

Yes, it seems like he's going out of his way to make him as dislikable as possible.

He made selfish and stupid choices in the manga and original anime but he wasn't unlikable like he is now. you could tell that he at least cared about others but in Super ? nope.

In terms of the Toei and Funimation making him into more of a hero, I'm really happy they did that. it's the best thing they could've done with him cause if he was written as bad as he is now then I don't think I and others would like him as much as we don.

That's basically what I'm getting at. If the audience who arent accustomed to this side of Goku have him thrust at them, it may turn them off from the Dragonball franchise in general.
Saying oh well to a large part of your audience is never a good thing.

[Totamo]

I should also say that what the dubs did may have made goku more likable.

But always remember doing that is the equivalent of pretending a person is holy at their funeral. You bring praise to a man who never existed and write stories that never reflected who he actually was. As long as it sounds nice, you'll want to "fix" their flaws like a crush gone too far.

[Boo Machine]

I think we all know that they aren't actually trying to make us hate him.

Personally I don't see Goku all that different from how he always is. Don't get me wrong his traits can be exaggerated at times and I totally understand where the gripes are coming from. But I feel that pretending that he is a vastly different character is just silly.

Should Goku show a little concern? Sure. But I don't want a mopey, sad Goku all the time. Especially when we are just 2 episodes into the arc. Call me crazy but I'm going to wait until the arc is over to think about how I feel about how goku is during it's run. The only thing I'm worried about is someone blowing their top every time Goku does anything even remotely goofy.

[sintzu]

That's basically what I'm getting at. If the audience who arent accustomed to this side of Goku have him thrust at them, it may turn them off from the Dragonball franchise in general.

Saying oh well to a large part of your audience is never a good thing.

In Japan Super is mostley aimed at new viewers and kids especially so they'll be OK cause this'll be their first introduction to the character and franchise.

In America on the other hand it's being targeted to the older fans who grew up on Z and hero Goku so I can see that being a problem. We'll have a better idea when more episodes air and how the ratings are. the home release sales will also give us an idea on weather or not it'll be successful here.

[Boo Machine]

That's basically what I'm getting at. If the audience who arent accustomed to this side of Goku have him thrust at them, it may turn them off from the Dragonball franchise in general.
Saying oh well to a large part of your audience is never a good thing.

What about those who weren't accustomed to "Hero Goku"? I don't think that version (Toei or Funi) turned anyone off from the franchise despite some of the complaints it has gotten over the years.

If we're talking about casual viewers, then I have a hard time imagining most of them caring very much. I realize my group of friends doesn't represent the whole casual viewership, but they are as casual as you can get, and for the most part don't really care that Goku is being the way he is. They noticed, sure, but it's not something that ruins anything for them. Which I see as fine, because aside from a few moments here and there Goku is still largely the same character.

[HeroR]

Must be me then, because I promise you this guy still feels like superman''

I'm talking about in battle of gods as well. when goku screams i won't let you destroy my world vs his original line don't look down on me.

Thats a significant change and they are going to keep that

If I recall, his line was 'stop destroying stuff' in the Japanese version.

[Boo Machine]

Must be me then, because I promise you this guy still feels like superman''

I'm talking about in battle of gods as well. when goku screams i won't let you destroy my world vs his original line don't look down on me.

Thats a significant change and they are going to keep that

If I recall, his line was 'stop destroying stuff' in the Japanese version.

I believe it was "stop enjoying destruction". The sub I saw had that line and the games have it as well. Unsure if that's much different though.

[Totamo]

Must be me then, because I promise you this guy still feels like superman''

I'm talking about in battle of gods as well. when goku screams i won't let you destroy my world vs his original line don't look down on me.

Thats a significant change and they are going to keep that

If I recall, his line was 'stop destroying stuff' in the Japanese version.

It was don't overestimate me

[lord godly da don]

My question is have we ever seen Goku in these type of situations? Have we ever seen Goku this long on earth in times of peace? he was mostly preparing for, going to or in a battle, and oh wait I forgot dead ( during the Z portion on the anime). Now we see him in more awkward moments like having a job, going to the market, traveling back and forth between time, going to the movies, being bored, interacting with God's of the highest power, situation that he have to be while mannered. to me it seems as though they are trying to exploring his character but at the same time we most not forget that Goku is the star of a action comedy show and he plays the role of the super strong simpleton/goofball not the straight man we have vegeta, piccolo, tenshin and future trunks for that so not only does Goku have to be strong, focused he also has to be funny and super has more opportunities for comedic moments then Z

[Boo Machine]

Must be me then, because I promise you this guy still feels like superman''

I'm talking about in battle of gods as well. when goku screams i won't let you destroy my world vs his original line don't look down on me.

Thats a significant change and they are going to keep that

If I recall, his line was 'stop destroying stuff' in the Japanese version.

It was don't overestimate me

Beerus unleashes a barrage of rapid fire ki attacks that Goku barely manages to dodge. Goku comes around Beerus’s blind side and lands a hard punch to the gut. Beerus is really angry now, and in his rage he fires off countless ki blasts in every direction. Goku tries to dodge all of the boulders falling from above, but gets caught up by the massive amount of them. Goku suddenly bursts out as he transforms into a Super Saiyan, yelling at Beerus that destruction is not something one should take pleasure in.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/movie/battle- ... /synopsis/

I'm fairly positive Goku wasn't telling Beerus to not underestimate him.

[TheMathemagician]

I think we all know that they aren't actually trying to make us hate him.

Personally I don't see Goku all that different from how he always is. Don't get me wrong his traits can be exaggerated at times and I totally understand where the gripes are coming from. But I feel that pretending that he is a vastly different character is just silly.

Should Goku show a little concern? Sure. But I don't want a mopey, sad Goku all the time. Especially when we are just 2 episodes into the arc. Call me crazy but I'm going to wait until the arc is over to think about how I feel about how goku is during it's run. The only thing I'm worried about is someone blowing their top every time Goku does anything even remotely goofy.

That'll happen every time, no matter what even if he does something that isn't all that bad. But yeah, I agree they exaggerate his characteristics, but he really (as a whole) isn't any different than he was back in Z.

[funrush]

This Goku is no different than the Goku who wouldn't take Kaio's advice to keep away from Freeza.

[Avok]

As I said in another thread, I highly, highly doubt his plot outline is so detailed to include character interactions so it's not actually Toriyama.
Toei isn't trying to make the people hate Goku, in fact, they're trying to make him likeable to the children. Yes, their characterisation of him is awful to say the least, but it's not like it is a deliberate thing.

[PsionicWarrior]

[Which I see as fine, because aside from a few moments here and there Goku is still largely the same character.

These "few" moments actually make him a largely different one though.


By the way, I don't really see the point with dubs, dubs won't change his actions.

[Boo Machine]

[Which I see as fine, because aside from a few moments here and there Goku is still largely the same character.

These "few" moments actually make him a largely different one though.

I may have worded what I mean wrong. What I meant was that he is the same character with a few moments that exaggerate certain traits in a way that certain fans may not appreciate but does not change his character. I can't really think of any moments that make him a different character. Not even one. Making Goku a different character would take a lot more than him just being a little too goofy sometimes.

Dubs don't change the actions but they can paint the intent of a character in a different light. Like between letting Vegeta go out of mercy and Letting him go just to have a chance to fight him again.