I find Goku to be the worst character in this show

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by SansrivaaL » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:51 pm

Does Goku even know what love is? I mean yeah he cares for Chichi and his kids, but I doubt he loves her romantically as Vegeta have towards Bulma, both manga and anime implicated that Goku doesnt even kiss Chichi.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by Beyond » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:58 pm

SansrivaaL wrote:Does Goku even know what love is? I mean yeah he cares for Chichi and his kids, but I doubt he loves her romantically as Vegeta have towards Bulma, both manga and anime implicated that Goku doesnt even kiss Chichi.
Not by human standards. I'd say he still has parental love though.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by Doctor. » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:01 pm

Beyond wrote:
SansrivaaL wrote:Does Goku even know what love is? I mean yeah he cares for Chichi and his kids, but I doubt he loves her romantically as Vegeta have towards Bulma, both manga and anime implicated that Goku doesnt even kiss Chichi.
Not by human standards. I'd say he still has parental love though.
Definitely, but he's probably asexual and aromantic if that's even a word, I don't know.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by Ki Breaker » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:22 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Beyond wrote:
SansrivaaL wrote:Does Goku even know what love is? I mean yeah he cares for Chichi and his kids, but I doubt he loves her romantically as Vegeta have towards Bulma, both manga and anime implicated that Goku doesnt even kiss Chichi.
Not by human standards. I'd say he still has parental love though.
Definitely, but he's probably asexual and aromantic if that's even a word, I don't know.
Well goku loves his food so there's that..
Doctor, that indeed is a word and perfectly describes goku too
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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:42 pm

Doctor. wrote:So we're comparing a comedy to a (pseudo-)drama now?
Why the fuck not...? They're both written stories nonetheless.
Goku knows he can revive himself and Vegeta with the dragon balls, death is never an issue to him, it's the potential of not being able to wish back his friends that makes him angry. Sociopathy is characterized mostly by the individual not being able to feel empathy, Goku has demonstrated, both in the manga and in Super, that he's perfectly capable of doing so. Thus, he's not a sociopath; this isn't hard to get.
That isn't what empathy is at all. It's being able to understand the feelings of others. What you mentioned are just instances of him being mad over losing someone close to him.

The fact he would rather fuck around than prevent Vegeta's death (which is easily preventable) or endangered 11 universes and doesn't care even after everyone was calling him out on his shit shows a clear lack of empathy.
We're blaming this on the 40-something-year old manchild who spent his childhood alone in the woods and comes from an alien culture?
Yes. Being uncultured is not an excuse for being a total dick... and you don't have to be romantically involved with a pregnant woman to show mere concern or emotional support. That there is empathy... which Goku seems to lack.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by Doctor. » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:03 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:Why the fuck not...? They're both written stories nonetheless.
Because comedy shows tend to have characters act in out-of-character fashion to suit the joke?
That isn't what empathy is at all. It's being able to understand the feelings of others. What you mentioned are just instances of him being mad over losing someone close to him.

The fact he would rather fuck around than prevent Vegeta's death (which is easily preventable) or endangered 11 universes and doesn't care even after everyone was calling him out on his shit shows a clear lack of empathy.
I wasn't saying that's what empathy is, I was making two seperate points, they weren't connected.

The fact that he called Beerus out on destroying innocent lives back in the BoG arc and got mad at Freeza for killing Piccolo and trying to attack Bulma & co in the F arc clearly shows that he indeed does feel empathy, even in Super.
Yes. Being uncultured is not an excuse for being a total dick... and you don't have to be romantically involved with a pregnant woman to show mere concern or emotional support. That there is empathy... which Goku seems to lack.
Goku is a total dick. Goku isn't a sociopath. Being an asshole =/= Being a sociopath. Bulma's life (and Chi-Chi's) wasn't in any substantial danger to him, so he doesn't care, being uncultured plays a big part because he doesn't know what kind of danger pregancy can bring. You seem to expect Goku to know how the world works.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:42 pm

Doctor. wrote:Because comedy shows tend to have characters act in out-of-character fashion to suit the joke?
Implying dramas don't make characters act OOC to suit the drama?
The fact that he called Beerus out on destroying innocent lives back in the BoG arc and got mad at Freeza for killing Piccolo and trying to attack Bulma & co in the F arc clearly shows that he indeed does feel empathy, even in Super.
1. Calling out Beerus on destroying innocent lives was only there because it was in the original BoG outline (and ironically before Toriyama dropped the whole "Goku doesn't give a shit about his family" bomb) and the latter isn't really empathy.

2. They aren't enough to show Goku isn't a sociopath. Goku in Super is just badly written not matter how you may slice it.
Goku is a total dick. Goku isn't a sociopath. Being an asshole =/= Being a sociopath. Bulma's life (and Chi-Chi's) wasn't in any substantial danger to him, so he doesn't care, being uncultured plays a big part because he doesn't know what kind of danger pregancy can bring. You seem to expect Goku to know how the world works.
Goku should at least have a fundamental understanding on how the world works after experiencing so many things including making multiple friends, starting his own family, and having 2 kids. Also, Goku isn't a dick despite what bullshit Super may be feeding you.

Not only does this make Goku (at best) look like a total dick but it also proves his haters right in that he's this horrible family man. Thanks a lot, Super... you soiled the good name of Son Goku.

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fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by Doctor. » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:46 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:Implying dramas don't make characters act OOC to suit the drama?
Not as often, no.
1. Calling out Beerus on destroying innocent lives was only there because it was in the original BoG outline (and ironically before Toriyama dropped the whole "Goku doesn't give a shit about his family" bomb) and the latter isn't really empathy.
We're just finding reasons to discredit Goku's moments now?
2. They aren't enough to show Goku isn't a sociopath. Goku in Super is just badly written not matter how you may slice it.
I don't care if you call him badly written, I take an issue with the misuse of the word sociopath.
Goku should at least have a fundamental understanding on how the world works after experiencing so many things including making multiple friends, starting his own family, and having 2 kids. Also, Goku isn't a dick despite what bullshit Super may be feeding you.
No matter what he may have experienced, his background will never leave him.

And Goku has always been a dick, remember the Cell arc? Just not as big of a dick as he is in Super.
Not only does this make Goku (at best) look like a total dick but it also proves his haters right in that he's this horrible family man. Thanks a lot, Super... you soiled the good name of Son Goku.
Goku's my favorite character in fiction and I think he's always been a terrible family man. Not a terrible father, but a terrible family man yes.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:01 pm

Doctor. wrote: Goku's my favorite character in fiction and I think he's always been a terrible family man. Not a terrible father, but a terrible family man yes.
Really? In my opinion it's the opposite way around at least in Super. He's seen constantly working when asked by Chichi and she cannot stop him from going and training yet he let's her. He's seen constantly hanging out with them eating etc. Hell it got to point Chichi and Goten were actively looking to help him train and have someone to spar to. He also took his time to see the Saiyaman movie, he tried out being a sec guard etc. That doesn't sound like a terrible family man at all.
SansrivaaL wrote:Does Goku even know what love is? I mean yeah he cares for Chichi and his kids, but I doubt he loves her romantically as Vegeta have towards Bulma, both manga and anime implicated that Goku doesnt even kiss Chichi.
Kissing DOES NOT equal love. Having children I am sure would equate much higher. I don't know why so many people are hung on up on kissing and think it is the be and end all of a relationship and whether a couple love each other.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by Boo Machine » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:18 pm

Goku has always been a dick, but not a sociopath, and I feel people are deluding themselves stating otherwise. Despite some choosing to, apparently, ignore it, there is too much evidence to say he has no empathy.

I couldn't care less if someone doesn't like Goku. But I don't get this obsessive need to stick the biggest most hard hitting label you can think of on him. You can just not like him without trying to paint him as the poster child of all things wrong with the world. Super didn't turn him into "GOKU! Puncher of the elderly and eater of puppies!" He is still Goku. The same one he has always been. A more dickish version maybe, but not a wildly different character like some may want to believe for whatever reason.
Last edited by Boo Machine on Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by SansrivaaL » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:19 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Kissing DOES NOT equal love. Having children I am sure would equate much higher. I don't know why so many people are hung on up on kissing and think it is the be and end all of a relationship and whether a couple love each other.
Kissing has always been a way for people to convey if they love someone, if kissing was out of the question for Goku which is an easier step then God knows how they were able to reach the master stage which is having sex. Thats like jumping a lot of levels.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:25 pm

SansrivaaL wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Kissing DOES NOT equal love. Having children I am sure would equate much higher. I don't know why so many people are hung on up on kissing and think it is the be and end all of a relationship and whether a couple love each other.
Kissing has always been a way for people to convey if they love someone, if kissing was out of the question for Goku which is an easier step then God knows how they were able to reach the master stage which is having sex. Thats like jumping a lot of levels.
Umm I am pretty sure saying the words "I love you" conveys whether someone loves someone or not, not kissing, kissing is just an extension.

Also kissing is not a mandatory act in sex, so it's not like skipping a change.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by SansrivaaL » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:28 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
SansrivaaL wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Kissing DOES NOT equal love. Having children I am sure would equate much higher. I don't know why so many people are hung on up on kissing and think it is the be and end all of a relationship and whether a couple love each other.
Kissing has always been a way for people to convey if they love someone, if kissing was out of the question for Goku which is an easier step then God knows how they were able to reach the master stage which is having sex. Thats like jumping a lot of levels.
Umm I am pretty sure saying the words "I love you" conveys whether someone loves someone or not, not kissing, kissing is just an extension.

Also kissing is not a mandatory act in sex, so it's not like skipping a change.
The words "I love you" convey it through words, the act of kissing conveys it through action, thats why you hear some overly romantic girls saying "I dont need your words, but action."

It isnt, but its a hell of a jump if you cant even kiss the damn girl, let alone knowing the reason WHY you should kiss her.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by Bansho64 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:38 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Really? In my opinion it's the opposite way around at least in Super. He's seen constantly working when asked by Chichi and she cannot stop him from going and training yet he let's her. He's seen constantly hanging out with them eating etc. Hell it got to point Chichi and Goten were actively looking to help him train and have someone to spar to. He also took his time to see the Saiyaman movie, he tried out being a sec guard etc. That doesn't sound like a terrible family man at all
I think it takes a lot more than just being there to be a family man. Yes, he's physically there and he's done physical work when asked to, but it goes a lot deeper than that imo.
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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:46 pm

SansrivaaL wrote:The words "I love you" convey it through words, the act of kissing conveys it through action, thats why you hear some overly romantic girls saying "I dont need your words, but action."

It isnt, but its a hell of a jump if you cant even kiss the damn girl, let alone knowing the reason WHY you should kiss her.
Well using your first point against you. Sex is also referred to as "Making Love". Having Sex and producing offspring > Kissing in terms showcasing love.
Bansho64 wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Really? In my opinion it's the opposite way around at least in Super. He's seen constantly working when asked by Chichi and she cannot stop him from going and training yet he let's her. He's seen constantly hanging out with them eating etc. Hell it got to point Chichi and Goten were actively looking to help him train and have someone to spar to. He also took his time to see the Saiyaman movie, he tried out being a sec guard etc. That doesn't sound like a terrible family man at all
I think it takes a lot more than just being there to be a family man. Yes, he's physically there and he's done physical work when asked to, but it goes a lot deeper than than imo.
But he's not a terrible family man, that my point he might not be good or great and I'm not saying that but he's by no means terrible.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by SansrivaaL » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:25 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Well using your first point against you. Sex is also referred to as "Making Love". Having Sex and producing offspring > Kissing in terms showcasing love.
Making love and conveying love arent exactly the same. Hence my point, how can he jump from not kissing her to having sex with her, if Goku doesnt even kiss Chichi which is a more normal thing that you do to your loved one, having sex is a lot more out of the question. I dont even remember Goku telling Chichi he loves her. The best I remember was him telling Gohan before IT'ng Cell to King Kai's place "Tell your mother I'm sorry"
We are getting nowhere, I said my piece, peace out! :lol:

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by Kanassa » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:03 pm

SansrivaaL wrote: I dont even remember Goku telling Chichi he loves her. The best I remember was him telling Gohan before IT'ng Cell to King Kai's place "Tell your mother I'm sorry"
We are getting nowhere, I said my piece, peace out! :lol:
That's the real reason he IT'd Cell, not to save the world, but because he knew Chichi was going to wreck his shit for what he did with Ggohan when they get back home.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:10 pm

Doctor. wrote:Not as often, no.
It still doesn't mean shit... writing a character in OOC is just bad writing (though comedies can benefit from the writers poking fun at it). In the end, they're both stories.
We're just finding reasons to discredit Goku's moments now?
Well they're not cases of empathy... well the latter isn't. The former is only there because of plot and Toriyama's input before that time.
No matter what he may have experienced, his background will never leave him.

And Goku has always been a dick, remember the Cell arc? Just not as big of a dick as he is in Super.
Yes it can leave him because while it may have shaped him to be who he is, it doesn't mean he can't grow and learn new things.

And I do remember the Cell arc but I don't see how it shows him as a dick. Basically what I'm getting from you is Goku is an unlikable dickhead and people should accept that even though we're supposed to root for him as the main character while throwing the original series under a bus to defend Super. This memeshit is annoying and I hate the fact Super is encouraging it.
Boo Machine wrote:Goku has always been a dick, but not a sociopath, and I feel people are deluding themselves stating otherwise. Despite some choosing to, apparently, ignore it, there is too much evidence to say he has no empathy.

I couldn't care less if someone doesn't like Goku. But I don't get this obsessive need to stick the biggest most hard hitting label you can think of on him. You can just not like him without trying to paint him as the poster child of all things wrong with the world. Super didn't turn him into "GOKU! Puncher of the elderly and eater of puppies!" He is still Goku. The same one he has always been. A more dickish version maybe, but not a wildly different character like some may want to believe for whatever reason.
Sociopaths aren't inherently evil. They're just incapable of feeling empathy and functioning normally in society... it's a mental illness.
SansrivaaL wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Well using your first point against you. Sex is also referred to as "Making Love". Having Sex and producing offspring > Kissing in terms showcasing love.
Making love and conveying love arent exactly the same. Hence my point, how can he jump from not kissing her to having sex with her, if Goku doesnt even kiss Chichi which is a more normal thing that you do to your loved one, having sex is a lot more out of the question. I dont even remember Goku telling Chichi he loves her. The best I remember was him telling Gohan before IT'ng Cell to King Kai's place "Tell your mother I'm sorry"
We are getting nowhere, I said my piece, peace out! :lol:
Don't recall any of the other couples confessing their love.

Oh and....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... sting.html
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by Doctor. » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:31 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:It still doesn't mean shit... writing a character in OOC is just bad writing (though comedies can benefit from the writers poking fun at it). In the end, they're both stories.
They're both stories but one doesn't care about keeping character personalities consistent if it fits the joke, the other one is much less tolerant in doing so, why are we going in circles over this very simple point?
The former is only there because of plot and Toriyama's input before that time.
It's still in Super, which means it's a valid representation of Super Goku just as any of the other scenes you mentioned. Disregarding it because of arbitrary reasons means you don't actually want to have a debate and you're just trying to push your twisted view of the character/show/whatever your point is supposed to be on to everyone else.

And there has been no change in Toriyama's portrayal of the character like you keep trying to imply there has. This is a quote from 1996:
Toriyama: Right. There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.
I repeat, 1996.
And I do remember the Cell arc but I don't see how it shows him as a dick.
"So basically, Goku, these super strong androids kill everyone. Please stop them okay?"
"Yeah, I'm gonna fight them all!"
Basically what I'm getting from you is Goku is an unlikable dickhead and people should accept that even though we're supposed to root for him as the main character while throwing the original series under a bus to defend Super. This memeshit is annoying and I hate the fact Super is encouraging it.
Root for the main character? Were we supposed to call Goku such a great guy when he let Vegeta go? Were we supposed to say Goku was doing it for the best of everyone when he let Freeza power-up? Were we supposed to think Goku is a genius when he refused to find Gero? Sometimes you're not supposed to root for the main character, the series makes this evidently clear multiple times. This whole tournament deal is another case where you're not supposed to root for Goku once again. What I'm getting from you is that you've made up some headcanon about how Goku is supposed to be and you can't accept any dissenting portrayal of the character anymore.

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Re: Goku is officially the worst character in this show

Post by Boo Machine » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:32 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: It still doesn't mean shit... writing a character in OOC is just bad writing (though comedies can benefit from the writers poking fun at it). In the end, they're both stories.
OOC implies Goku did something Goku would never do. Which isn't the case. Nothing Goku has done has been something the character of Goku would never do.
This memeshit is annoying and I hate the fact Super is encouraging it.
It's not even the meme. Goku has KNOWINGLY put multiple lives at risk with his decisions before. I believe we went over what those were in another thread. If we're going by the logic of those that want to hate him then that would make him a dick.

Sociopaths aren't inherently evil. They're just incapable of feeling empathy and functioning normally in society... it's a mental illness.
I may have exaggerated in my example, but I know what a sociopath is. I'm just starting to question if others here understand it.

Signs of caring in super from the top of my head are.

-Goku doing everything he can to keep Blasts thrown by Beerus from hitting the earth. Not the movie. Super.

- episode 24. Shitty episode, but a good chunk of it was Goku protecting everyone from being hit by Freeza leaving himself open to be attacked multiple times.

- When Goku shows concern for the U6 fighter whom Champa wanted to wipe out.

- The episode where Goku spends time with Pan.

- The rage moment against Black

If you don't like the character anymore then that fine. But we don't need to throw around the strongest words and labels we can think of at the character to justify the dislike. The very fact the people want to put the label of Sociopath on goku is probably one of the silliest things I've seen a Dragonball fan try to do.
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To Infinity, then stop!

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