I find Goku to be the worst character in this show

[TheMikado]

^^^ Thank God SOMEBODY gets it. Toei has literally had Goku described as EVIL for the last 3 or 4 Got Dang Flipping episodes. It's so incredibly in your face that it actually is very jarring and would have been much better if subtle. Problem is THEY CANNOT BE Because when they throw it in your face and smack you over the head with it and then punch you in the gut, people just keep saying oh jus Cause they said he's evil like 6 times in the episode and Goku didn't even try to deny it, that means nothing. He's always been called evil and laughed about it. Come on, I'm not even saying whether it's good or bad, just that's how it's literally written but clearly at levels a 5 year old could grasp, the concept that they are purposely writing Goku as "evil" sails clear over the heads of some of the fandom.

[mfwlegend3]

He's always been called evil and laughed about it.

Outside of the Zamasu arc and the current one, when has he ever been called evil? I don't recall him ever being called evil in the original manga.

[TheMikado]

He's always been called evil and laughed about it.

Outside of the Zamasu arc and the current one, when has he ever been called evil? I don't recall him ever being called evil in the original manga.

I'm being sarcastic and imitating people who make that argument. He's never been called evil throughout the series which is the point I'm making, in fact he's always been called good and pure hearted. Shoot the SSG transformation was based around "righteous" saiyans.

[mfwlegend3]

I'm being sarcastic and imitating people who make that argument. He's never been called evil throughout the series which is the point I'm making, in fact he's always been called good and pure hearted. Shoot the SSG transformation was based around "righteous" saiyans.

Oh, right. Gotcha.

[TekTheNinja]

Now imagine if there was another Full Metal Alchemist series, and Roy Mustang just objectified every single woman he came across. He's never serious, and even when fighting female enemies he can't help but objectify the women he's fighting. Every single scene with him and a woman has to have some sort of flirting or objectification going on. Naturally, I would say that's simply not Mustang's character. However, according to some of you, you'd say that IS Mustang's character, and has ALWAYS been Mustang's character, because we've seen him be a ladies man in the past series a few times.

You just put a hilarious thought into my head. XD

Imagine Mustang fighting Lust when suddenly he's like, "Hey I know you're the reason [spoiler]Maes Hughs is dead and all[/spoiler], but you're pretty hot. Wanna bang?"

It'd be absolutely ridiculous. XD

[Miracles]

As of now, most people know Goku isn't post to be some righteous hero that isn't the problem. The problem is how Goku's characterization is being portrayed, you don't need to be a narrow minded asshole to be a badass.

Goku's characterization is narrow-minded many a times. This is one of those times he lives for battle, regardless of circumstances. He is a pure blooded Saiyan. He is not Gohan. This uniqueness makes him "cooler." You don't like how his saiyan blood takes over? That's a breath of fresh air, Kakarot's gambles for a good fight.

"B-b-but Goku's always been like this!"

I dunno how many times it has to be said, but this isn't a valid excuse.

Once again, I highly encourage everyone to watch MasakoX's video about Goku's characterization in this latest arc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA1ADQFwZb0). He brings up the tired old point that has been going around here of the "Goku always had these qualities" and completely shuts it down.

Yes, you're right. You're all right, Goku has always had these qualities. No one is debating this (well some are, but most aren't). The Funimation dub didn't somehow change the story to where Goku's actions were completely changed, so even the people who watched the dub know that Goku has bad qualities and he's done some stupid things before (like let Vegeta, Freeza, etc. go just so he can fight them again).

But when those qualities are amplified heavily in writing, the character is no longer the same character. Just as people complained that Goku's forgetfulness and stupidity was ramped up to ridiculous levels. Yes, Goku's always been forgetful, he's always been stupid when it comes to non-fighting stuff, but he was never that forgetful, never that stupid.

If we were to draw a comparison to a different anime, imagine Mustang from Full Metal Alchemist. He's a bit of a ladies man. If you're a full metal fan, you at least know about that mini skirt scene.

Now imagine if there was another Full Metal Alchemist series, and Roy Mustang just objectified every single woman he came across. He's never serious, and even when fighting female enemies he can't help but objectify the women he's fighting. Every single scene with him and a woman has to have some sort of flirting or objectification going on. Naturally, I would say that's simply not Mustang's character. However, according to some of you, you'd say that IS Mustang's character, and has ALWAYS been Mustang's character, because we've seen him be a ladies man in the past series a few times.

When these character attributes are played up to levels that didn't exist before, you can't say "they've always been like that". It's not just "X has the character trait of selfishness, so ANY kind of selfish act that X does, no matter the scale, will always be in character"

There's also the fact that TOEI has literally been screaming in your face every single episode so far, and putting it in the foreground and shoving it in your face over and over again, the concept that Goku is "evil". If this was "always Goku's character" then why has TOEI been so vehemously shoving in your face every episode that he's "evil"? Even if you don't agree with the assessment, the fact that TOEI is very intentionally and very obviously doing this is perfect proof alone that this isn't just "good ol' Goku" the one we've always known and loved. If you still deny that TOEI is intentionally trying to paint Goku in a different light, then I'm sorry but you really need to go back and watch the arc from the beginning again.

No, Goku putting the universe at risk is not a character change nor is it an amplification.
It is simply an aspect of his character being developed/focused on.

[HeroR]

No one else gives a shit either and even Gohan is excited by fighting. No one cares about the multiverse or billions of people dying, only saving their own ass. So why is Goku expecting to care?

And that's a serious problem. The narrative is trying to have its cake and eat it too by showing how horrible the situation is through the other universes but it expects us to root for Goku and co who don't give a damn and are starting to come across as a bunch of unsympathetic douchebags.

Not really since it is the fans who are trying to paint as the characters as caring, while everyone is concern about themselves. The narrative haven't put any real emphases on the universes being destroyed. Only on Goku's actions causing the tournament.

And it isn't just Goku and co. No one, not even the other universes give a shit about one another. The universes that are excused basically mocked the others for being on the chopping block. Even Toppa got on Goku for putting 'his' universe in danger. Nothing about the rest of the universes.

By your definition, everyone is unsympathetic douchebags.

[TheMikado]

No one else gives a shit either and even Gohan is excited by fighting. No one cares about the multiverse or billions of people dying, only saving their own ass. So why is Goku expecting to care?

And that's a serious problem. The narrative is trying to have its cake and eat it too by showing how horrible the situation is through the other universes but it expects us to root for Goku and co who don't give a damn and are starting to come across as a bunch of unsympathetic douchebags.

Not really since it is the fans who are trying to paint as the characters as caring, while everyone is concern about themselves. The narrative haven't put any real emphases on the universes being destroyed. Only on Goku's actions causing the tournament.

And it isn't just Goku and co. No one, not even the other universes give a shit about one another. The universes that are excused basically mocked the others for being on the chopping block. Even Toppa got on Goku for putting 'his' universe in danger. Nothing about the rest of the universes.

By your definition, everyone is unsympathetic douchebags.

Ok, we won't even go into the many many times, dub, sub, anime, manga, etc. That Goku specifically calls out people for being evil and slaughtering innocent people. You know Goku doesnt care about collateral damage so he was ready to throw down with Vegeta in the middle of cities and at the tournament. No Goku repeatedly moves fights to places other people won't get hurt showing he at least acknowledges others shouldn't get hurt. You act as if Goku will jump straight into a fight and worry about wishing the people who get killed from it back later... That's not what Goku does.

Further the narrative does show the universes being destroyed, The gave a full on freaking speech about it, multiple characters how chastised Goku for it. I'm also not even sure how you came to conclusion that the universes are only worried about themselves. If that was the case the grand speech would be about sparing only that one universe. A far easier plea to make...

Are we even watching the same show?

[Asura]

And that's a serious problem. The narrative is trying to have its cake and eat it too by showing how horrible the situation is through the other universes but it expects us to root for Goku and co who don't give a damn and are starting to come across as a bunch of unsympathetic douchebags.

Not really since it is the fans who are trying to paint as the characters as caring, while everyone is concern about themselves. The narrative haven't put any real emphases on the universes being destroyed. Only on Goku's actions causing the tournament.

And it isn't just Goku and co. No one, not even the other universes give a shit about one another. The universes that are excused basically mocked the others for being on the chopping block. Even Toppa got on Goku for putting 'his' universe in danger. Nothing about the rest of the universes.

By your definition, everyone is unsympathetic douchebags.

Ok, we won't even go into the many many times, dub, sub, anime, manga, etc. That Goku specifically calls out people for being evil and slaughtering innocent people. You know Goku doesnt care about collateral damage so he was ready to throw down with Vegeta in the middle of cities and at the tournament. No Goku repeatedly moves fights to places other people won't get hurt showing he at least acknowledges others shouldn't get hurt. You act as if Goku will jump straight into a fight and worry about wishing the people who get killed from it back later... That's not what Goku does.

Further the narrative does show the universes being destroyed, The gave a full on freaking speech about it, multiple characters how chastised Goku for it. I'm also not even sure how you came to conclusion that the universes are only worried about themselves. If that was the case the grand speech would be about sparing only that one universe. A far easier plea to make...

Are we even watching the same show?

Thank you, that last line I bolded really sums up how I feel sometimes with some people who argue this. Apparently Goku has just been a completely malicious evil asshole this entire time, on par with Freeza even, and millions of members in the fanbase just somehow never knew until now.

Like, I really do not understand the narrative of "Goku is a bad person, has always been a bad person". He does selfish things sometimes that endanger others (on a much tinier scale than multi-universal fucking destruction, by the way) but he's not a bad person. He's saved the Earth countless times over and he's shown that he cares about people. In Super alone he showed how much he cared about another universe, Universe 6, which had nothing to do with him, when he was about to go in and help Hit against Champa.

Now, imagine if the current Pope just started acting like a complete prick all of a sudden. Like, just out of nowhere, no explanation, no nothing, he's just praising Satan all of a sudden and breaking shit in the Vatican. The people here would probably say "Well, you know, I remember seeing a picture of the pope sticking his hand into the cookie jar, so really this behavior was to be expected and a logical evolution of his person. Clearly he's always had these bad traits. How come none of you ever noticed? We all saw him stick his hand into the cookie jar, so why would him praising Satan be a surprise?"

The point, again, is that just because you have a character trait, doesn't mean that going to the absolute extreme with that character trait (with no build-up) is somehow acceptable and still "in-character". There's a wide scale of "bad/reckless" that exists in the world, and going from "stealing candy at a convenience store" to "full blown genocide of an entire race" isn't something that just happens one day. "Well you know, we saw him sneak a Kit-Kat bar out in his pocket, so we always knew that he would obtain and fire nuclear weapons the very next day and destroy millions of lives. It was just logical based on his previous behavior." Lol, like come on.

[Lord Beerus]

Not really since it is the fans who are trying to paint as the characters as caring, while everyone is concern about themselves. The narrative haven't put any real emphases on the universes being destroyed. Only on Goku's actions causing the tournament.

And it isn't just Goku and co. No one, not even the other universes give a shit about one another. The universes that are excused basically mocked the others for being on the chopping block. Even Toppa got on Goku for putting 'his' universe in danger. Nothing about the rest of the universes.

By your definition, everyone is unsympathetic douchebags.

Ok, we won't even go into the many many times, dub, sub, anime, manga, etc. That Goku specifically calls out people for being evil and slaughtering innocent people. You know Goku doesnt care about collateral damage so he was ready to throw down with Vegeta in the middle of cities and at the tournament. No Goku repeatedly moves fights to places other people won't get hurt showing he at least acknowledges others shouldn't get hurt. You act as if Goku will jump straight into a fight and worry about wishing the people who get killed from it back later... That's not what Goku does.

Further the narrative does show the universes being destroyed, The gave a full on freaking speech about it, multiple characters how chastised Goku for it. I'm also not even sure how you came to conclusion that the universes are only worried about themselves. If that was the case the grand speech would be about sparing only that one universe. A far easier plea to make...

Are we even watching the same show?

Thank you, that last line I bolded really sums up how I feel sometimes with some people who argue this. Apparently Goku has just been a completely malicious evil asshole this entire time, on par with Freeza even, and millions of members in the fanbase just somehow never knew until now.

Like, I really do not understand the narrative of "Goku is a bad person, has always been a bad person". He does selfish things sometimes that endanger others (on a much tinier scale than multi-universal fucking destruction, by the way) but he's not a bad person. He's saved the Earth countless times over and he's shown that he cares about people. In Super alone he showed how much he cared about another universe, Universe 6, which had nothing to do with him, when he was about to go in and help Hit against Champa.

Now, imagine if the current Pope just started acting like a complete prick all of a sudden. Like, just out of nowhere, no explanation, no nothing, he's just praising Satan all of a sudden and breaking shit in the Vatican. The people here would probably say "Well, you know, I remember seeing a picture of the pope sticking his hand into the cookie jar, so really this behavior was to be expected and a logical evolution of his person. Clearly he's always had these bad traits. How come none of you ever noticed? We all saw him stick his hand into the cookie jar, so why would him praising Satan be a surprise?"

The point, again, is that just because you have a character trait, doesn't mean that going to the absolute extreme with that character trait (with no build-up) is somehow acceptable and still "in-character". There's a wide scale of "bad/reckless" that exists in the world, and going from "stealing candy at a convenience store" to "full blown genocide of an entire race" isn't something that just happens one day. "Well you know, we saw him sneak a Kit-Kat bar out in his pocket, so we always knew that he would obtain and fire nuclear weapons the very next day and destroy millions of lives. It was just logical based on his previous behavior." Lol, like come on.

Woah, woah, woah.

Nobody here has said anything along the lines of that "Goku is a bad person, has always been a bad person" or that "Goku has just been a completely malicious evil asshole this entire time, on par with Freeza even, and millions of members in the fanbase just somehow never knew until now." Many people are fully aware of how heroic can be. I know for a fact that Goku has performed selfess deeds in the past to protect his friends and family. But he's not without his glaring flaw. The point that some people are trying to make is that Goku's hunger for a challenge can often lead to him clouding his judgement and retrospectively acting in a very unconventionally selfish and reckless manor.

Goku is very much comparable to classical heroes, much like Hercules, where he is more than willing to protect his friends and family and save the day, but the fashion of which he will go about it very morally ambiguous and questionable. For every time Goku was willing to go out of his way to help people, something that very much more common when he is a child than he is an adult, he often contributes to the plot moving in a negative way due to his inherit Saiyan nature of thriving for a challenge and for a fight, even when the circumstances for that can have negative connotations and repercussions and he's fully aware of it. We see it in the Saiyan arc, we see it in the Freeza arc, we see it in the Cell arc and we see it in the Majin Boo arc. His blood knight characteristics are undeniably a recurring trait when Goku reaches adulthood, and throughout the second half of the story and Super is taking that making it central theme. How it's executed is still left to be seen.

None of his characteristics are exaggerating it by any means. Goku has never actually said he doesn't care about several other universes begin destroyed to begin with. He said doesn't care about being seen as an enemy of several other universes. And why should he? Goku is not looking he's for acceptance from other universes. He just wants test his limits and fight strong people from other universe. Which was his main reason for asking for this tournament in the first place. Goku is not interested in making friends or enemies in the tournament. He's looking to make most of a what for him is going to be a once in a lifetime experience and challenge himself while also trying to save his own universe. Just like he's done in the past.

Goku's overall reaction to any kind of impending doom is always very unorthodox. He welcomes with a smile the idea of Freeza powering up to his maximum because he wants to defeat him at his best, even though he has no idea just how strong Freeza true power is, and even though there is every likelihood that could end up killing him. He flat out rejects the idea of easily cancelling a potential future apocalypse because he wants to to take gamble of fighting the threat directly. And keep in my, if he did, he would have lost. Then of course there was gambling with his son's and everyone's lives on Earth and God knows how many other planets in the universe for a fair against Cell. And then Goku goes out of his way to entertain Vegeta for shits and giggles in the Majin Boo arc, knowing full well the dangers it would create. And in the final battle against Kid Boo, who at that stage had destroyed the Earth and everyone on it, turns down the idea of fusing with Vegeta and gambling that Super Saiyan 3 would be enough. And it wasn't. Hell, Goku even states that if Kid Boo destroyed any more planets, they'll just use the Dragon Balls to bring them back. Goku approach to death, irregardless of the potential scale of it, is incredibly laid-back because he knows that there is some way he can fix everything. And with the Super Dragon Balls us for grabs for the winning universe in the Tournament of Power, there's nothing against the idea of him using them to restore the destroyed universes, should it even reach that point.

I also often hear the argument of, "Why doesn't Goku show that he cares of putting several universes at risk?"
1. What personal connection does Goku have with any of the other universes?
2. Goku never knew that rule would implemented in the first. Yes, he was warned about talking to Zeno, but nothing about him destroying several universes. He just wanted a tournament.
3. Zeno was already planned on destroying Goku's universe along with several others. So that idea that Goku intentionally or unintentionally put several other universes are risk for a tournament is a flawed argument to begin with. Hell, Goku actually unintentionally bought his universe, at the very least, a lifeline.
4. Considering the universes that are taking part in the Tournament of Power scored below average on the Mortal Level, and were deemed universes not worth existing anymore, why should Goku even begin to care about universes that Zeno himself deems unnecessary?

I also hear the argument that Goku could have/should have thrown the fight against Bergamo, when:
a) He would really never even consider doing that in the first place.
b) He was put up against a wall with not being allowed to hold back or all 12 universes would be destroyed
c) That pooch was screwed the second that SSJ Goku had a mountain sized Bergamo on the ropes. And it also doesn't help that Grand Priest has a sharp eye for detail or that Zeno is a very capricious character, that also has a grasp of how strong Goku is. There's no way that after how Goku was doing against Bergamo that then him losing the fight wouldn't have not seemed suspicious to Zeno or Grand Priest. And there no guarantee that Zeno or Grand Priest wouldn't have called Goku out on losing and Goku sheepishly admitting that he let Bergamo win. Even disregarding that, there's the likelihood that Goku just got so caught up in fighting a warrior he never come across before in another universe, which was the sole reason for Goku wanting to have this kind of tournament in the place, that he just instinctively expressed his intent to fight with everything he has, and didn't take the gravity of situation he was in into consideration. Which is certainly something we've seen before.

Again, nobody is saying that Goku is a bad person at all. He's just a very complicated and unusual character.

[Papinacho]

I agree with Asure and TheMikado.

I've seen a lot of people argue this is typical selfish Goku who's always cared abut only fighting.

But the thing is, though Goku may have "poison" in his modern incarnation, this is still the character who survived the Devilmite Beam (an attack that would have killed him if he had even the tiniest bit of evil inside). A guy who, even going so far as battle of the Gods was proven to be more good than evil.

This is still the guy who was capable of feeling regret when he realized he wasn't being a good father during the cell games.

There is no question that were this still regular Goku he would not be so uncaring towards the fate of multiverse.

Which leads me to the conclusion that either Goku has become the victim of bad writing or that something is happening behind the scenes which we do not know.

[Kanassa]

But the thing is, though Goku may have "poison" in his modern incarnation, this is still the character who survived the Devilmite Beam (an attack that would have killed him if he had even the tiniest bit of evil inside). A guy who, even going so far as battle of the Gods was proven to be more good than evil.

Goku does a lot of shitty things, but he never does anything evil, at least in how Dragonball portrays the concept of evil. He never has malicious intent unless his buttons are pushed by certain villains. The Goku in Super would still survive the Devilmite Beam.

[TheMikado]

But the thing is, though Goku may have "poison" in his modern incarnation, this is still the character who survived the Devilmite Beam (an attack that would have killed him if he had even the tiniest bit of evil inside). A guy who, even going so far as battle of the Gods was proven to be more good than evil.

Goku does a lot of shitty things, but he never does anything evil, at least in how Dragonball portrays the concept of evil. He never has malicious intent unless his buttons are pushed by certain villains. The Goku in Super would still survive the Devilmite Beam.

I'm pretty sure selfishness falls under evil. Cell wasn't actually motivated by evil, you could say his only intention was to fight a strong opponent and his methods were immoral.

[Lord Beerus]

But the thing is, though Goku may have "poison" in his modern incarnation, this is still the character who survived the Devilmite Beam (an attack that would have killed him if he had even the tiniest bit of evil inside). A guy who, even going so far as battle of the Gods was proven to be more good than evil.

Goku does a lot of shitty things, but he never does anything evil, at least in how Dragonball portrays the concept of evil. He never has malicious intent unless his buttons are pushed by certain villains. The Goku in Super would still survive the Devilmite Beam.

I'm pretty sure selfishness falls under evil. Cell wasn't actually motivated by evil, you could say his only intention was to fight a strong opponent and his methods were immoral.

By that logic, you have to classify Goku as evil since the Saiyan arc.

[TheMikado]

Goku does a lot of shitty things, but he never does anything evil, at least in how Dragonball portrays the concept of evil. He never has malicious intent unless his buttons are pushed by certain villains. The Goku in Super would still survive the Devilmite Beam.

I'm pretty sure selfishness falls under evil. Cell wasn't actually motivated by evil, you could say his only intention was to fight a strong opponent and his methods were immoral.

By that logic, you have to classify Goku as evil since the Saiyan arc.

Yes you do, which Goku acknowledges 100% and is 100% aware that his actions are not in everyone's best interest. He owns up to his selfishness rather than being oblivious like we are claiming he should be. I've even seen the argument that Goku has no concept of Good or Evil/ Right or aweong which is absolutely bogus. He knew his actions were selfish and wrong and pleaded for his friends permission who he would be directly impacting. That's the difference, Gokus conscience, the same one that told him that doing that was wrong and prompted him to please with Krillin is suddenly gone. Goku acts as if he doesn't owe anyone an apology in Super. A far cry from the Goku we saw perform that selfish action of letting Vegeta live.

[Papinacho]

But the thing is, though Goku may have "poison" in his modern incarnation, this is still the character who survived the Devilmite Beam (an attack that would have killed him if he had even the tiniest bit of evil inside). A guy who, even going so far as battle of the Gods was proven to be more good than evil.

Goku does a lot of shitty things, but he never does anything evil, at least in how Dragonball portrays the concept of evil. He never has malicious intent unless his buttons are pushed by certain villains. The Goku in Super would still survive the Devilmite Beam.

If selfishness as a whole wasn't considered morally undesirable in the DBZ Universe, then Goku wouldn't have brought it up when he was letting Vegeta go.
He obviously understood what he was doing was wrong, otherwise why justify it?

Again, in Battle of the Gods there's another example of Goku's selfishness/obsession being morally undesirable, when Roshi brings up that Goku being battle crazy might be enough reason for him to not be a good person.

I think being battle crazy to the degree that Goku is in this arc would definitely be considered evil, even within the context of the dbz world.

[Asura]

Again, nobody is saying that Goku is a bad person at all. He's just a very complicated and unusual character.

Are you sure you've read this thread?

Also, I've pretty much already answered every point in your reply since your reply boils down to (as every other argument on this topic does) "it's not out of character, he's always had these traits". You're also defending the fact that Goku shouldn't give a shit about potentially having the deaths of trillions of people on his hands (he was acting like this before he knew Zeno would have erased them anyway) and saying that's in character for him, while also saying he's not a bad guy.

I just don't understand how people can chalk up Goku's actions to "yep, he's always not cared about people. Good ol' Goku!". Dragonball started very heavily with the concept of morality, and we quickly learned that Goku was someone who was pure of heart, and always willing to defend the innocent. A Goku who essentially laughs in the face of people panicking in anger because they've learned their entire universe might be destroyed is definitely not someone who is "pure of heart". I also see a lot of people try to justify "pure of heart" as some ambiguous term in an attempt to discredit that entire thing, when in reality the meaning of it couldn't be more clear.

This is definitely not the same Goku. TOEI is making that very clear, they couldn't be more obvious about it at this point. The fact that people are still denying the evidence that TOEI has been hammering into us these past few episodes really just makes me wonder...

I'll just quote TheMikado again. Have we been watching the same show?

[Lord Beerus]

Again, nobody is saying that Goku is a bad person at all. He's just a very complicated and unusual character.

Are you sure you've read this thread?

Also, I've pretty much already answered every point in your reply since your reply boils down to (as every other argument on this topic does) "it's not out of character, he's always had these traits". You're also defending the fact that Goku shouldn't give a shit about potentially having the deaths of trillions of people on his hands (he was acting like this before he knew Zeno would have erased them anyway) and saying that's in character for him, while also saying he's not a bad guy.

I just don't understand how people can chalk up Goku's actions to "yep, he's always not cared about people. Good ol' Goku!". Dragonball started very heavily with the concept of morality, and we quickly learned that Goku was someone who was pure of heart, and always willing to defend the innocent. A Goku who essentially laughs in the face of people panicking in anger because they've learned their entire universe might be destroyed is definitely not someone who is "pure of heart". I also see a lot of people try to justify "pure of heart" as some ambiguous term in an attempt to discredit that entire thing, when in reality the meaning of it couldn't be more clear.

This is definitely not the same Goku. TOEI is making that very clear, they couldn't be more obvious about it at this point. The fact that people are still denying the evidence that TOEI has been hammering into us these past few episodes really just makes me wonder...

I'll just quote TheMikado again. Have we been watching the same show?

Yes, I've been watching the same show.

The same show where Goku cares for his family and friends but his desire for a challenge can severely cloud his judgement and perspective. The same Goku that in the same arc went from avenging his dead allies, to letting the person responsible for their deaths escape so he can battle him again. The same Goku that arrived on an alien planet to save his friends and family and then allows the person who murdered his best friend to power up by an unknown amount of strength the satisfy his combat ego. The same Goku that scarified his life to save the planet but leading up to that waved off the opportunity to easily prevent that from even happening in the first place as he wanted to fight the threat that he knew would destroy the world in the future. The same Goku who intentionally held back against SSJ2 Majin Vegeta for nonsensical reasons, knowing that he would be unleashing a danger that could threaten the entire existence of the universe, and then when presented with the opportunity of killing Kid Boo easily, even though at that point everyone on Earth, apart from himself, Dende and Mr Satan were dead, the planet itself was destroyed, and the universe was essentially at Kid Boo's mercy, still decided to gamble with SSJ3 and the treat the fight as an exercise for himself and Vegeta. And the in the latest arc of Super, the same Goku who wanted to talk to Zeno to call off the universe destroying rule as soon as he heard about it and doesn't care if people label him as evil, even though he's fighting to protect his own universe as every other participant in the Tournament of Power is.

So, yeah. I'm certain I'm watching the same show.

[Asura]

The same Goku that arrived on an alien planet to save his friends and family and then allows the person who murdered his best friend to power up by an unknown amount of strength the satisfy his combat ego.

Ok so let's start here. I don't think that nitpicking Goku's actions on Namek are fair at all. He was an entirely different person after he went Super Saiyan for the first time. In fact, it's probably my favorite fight in the whole series and my favorite moment for Goku's character simply because he's completely blinded by rage and not the same person we've seen up until that point. He changed completely into being a bloodthirsty maniac enraged by the death of his best friend. We never see that side of Goku ever again during the rest of the series, up until now that is. But now it's different.

Goku doesn't have a reason to be this bloodthirsty dude who just wants to fight strong people and doesn't give a shit about anything or anyone else. Goku literally wanted to die with Freeza on the exploding Planet Namek. He wanted to fight him at his best and humiliate him. That's pretty metal. He had a reason behind it though, and his actions were clearly clouded by the transformation. Goku has no such excuse in Super right now.

The same Goku that sacrified his life to save the planet but leading up to that waved off the opportunity to easily prevent that from even happening in the first place as he wanted to fight the threat that he knew would destroy the world in the future.

But Goku knew that he could stop it from happening. In every situation that is "Goku let X person go!" or "Goku could have prevented this from happening but chose not to!" Goku knows (or rather hopes) that he can stop the threat. It's very selfish, we all know that, but Goku always has a plan to try and save the innocent lives caught up in the crossfire of his foolish wishes to fight stronger foes. In Super, Goku has no such plan. He does not care about the other universes, and he's a person who (before we knew about Zeno's plan to eliminate some universes) straight up basically laughed in the face of the universes complaining that they could be eliminated.

This is a very stark contrast to how Goku was written during the U6 arc. When Champa was basically ready to kill Hit and the rest of the U6 team, Goku was raring to go and ready to defend Hit and the rest of the U6 team. Beerus even tells him, it's not your universe, it's not your problem. Goku reluctantly obeys Beerus, but you can clearly tell that he was worried and wanted to help Hit and the rest, who really were innocents and did nothing wrong. Now we have multiple universes who also have innocent people under threat of eradication, and Goku just...doesn't care. To make matters even worse, Goku was literally the sole reason these universes were going to be eliminated (at least based on what he knew at the time) and he still didn't care!

This is one plan that Goku is just completely selfish in and has shown zero remorse, guilt, compassion, or hell even a single THOUGHT about the other universes he had (at the time) put in danger. And people say "Well why should Goku care about the other universes he has no attachments to them" but you're forgetting that those other universes are filled with trillions of innocent people, and despite not knowing any of them, Goku isn't the type of dude who would be perfectly fine with innocent people being killed.

The same Goku who intentionally held back against SSJ2 Majin Vegeta for nonsensical reasons, knowing that he would be unleashing a danger that could threaten the entire existence of the universe

So what did you expect Goku to do in this situation? Kill Vegeta? Do you really think that would have been in his character? And if he hadn't held back and had gone SSJ3 from the start then

A) Goku's remaining time on Earth would be cut short as we saw when he transformed in front of Buu.

B) Buu would have been released even faster because of Goku powering up to full.

There was nothing Goku could have done in that situation. Vegeta was killing innocent people and would continue until Goku fought him. So Goku fought him, and had no choice. Whether he went full power from the start wouldn't have mattered. Buu would still be summoned anyway, and Goku would have less time to try and deal with him.

and then when presented with the opportunity of killing Kid Boo easily, even though at that point everyone on Earth, apart from himself, Dende and Mr Satan were dead, the planet itself was destroyed, and the universe was essentially at Kid Boo's mercy, still decided to gamble with SSJ3 and the treat the fight as an exercise for himself and Vegeta.

I'm not sure how you mean. Goku & Vegeta both knew that Kid Buu was a lot weaker than Super Buu, and they may have had a chance to take him on as they were. The only other option they had at the time was fusion again, to which both of them declined. Goku knew there was no chance to win against Super Buu without fusion, but he figured that if he could have a chance against Kid Buu, why would he do something as crazy as a permanent fusion again? I don't see how that was reckless or whatever of him.

And the in the latest arc of Super, the same Goku who wanted to talk to Zeno to call off the universe destroying rule as soon as he heard about it and doesn't care if people label him as evil

Ah yes, the same Goku who didn't care whatsoever when Beerus was explaining the gravity of the situation, and who didn't even remotely try and press the issue of talking Zeno out of it after Whis said no. "Yeah yeah Beerus I know you're talking about entire universes being erased and shit but dude, STRONG FIGHTERS! teehee" - yeah nah that ain't Goku. His selfishness never got in the way of his empathy.

So, yeah. I'm certain I'm watching the same show.

Alright, so then can you explain to me why you think TOEI has been very obviously hammering the "Goku is evil" angle for the past few episodes? If Goku has always been this way as you've been implying, then why is TOEI very intentionally and obviously driving this point home in almost every episode? Do you really think it's something as silly as them merely highlighting how Goku has "always been" as if it's supposed to be a shocking revelation about the character that the fanbase never realized or something? If not, then what? They aren't doing it for no reason. It's very clearly a writing trope designed to make us look at the character in a different way. The question is, why do they want to make it look like Goku is evil? We'll just have to wait and see.

[Lord Beerus]

Ok so let's start here. I don't think that nitpicking Goku's actions on Namek are fair at all. He was an entirely different person after he went Super Saiyan for the first time. In fact, it's probably my favorite fight in the whole series and my favorite moment for Goku's character simply because he's completely blinded by rage and not the same person we've seen up until that point. He changed completely into being a bloodthirsty maniac enraged by the death of his best friend. We never see that side of Goku ever again during the rest of the series, up until now that is. But now it's different.

Goku doesn't have a reason to be this bloodthirsty dude who just wants to fight strong people and doesn't give a shit about anything or anyone else. Goku literally wanted to die with Freeza on the exploding Planet Namek. He wanted to fight him at his best and humiliate him. That's pretty metal. He had a reason behind it though, and his actions were clearly clouded by the transformation. Goku has no such excuse in Super right now.

We have have seen Goku got into an absolute fit of rage before, and ironically it was when Krillin was killed. Goku went fucking nuts over that. He desperate for revenge and disregarded any form of reason so he could avenge his best friend's death. But even those circumstances, he was still extremely pragmatic in battle and killed Tambourine, Drum and King Piccolo as efficiently as he could. How he could satisfy his combat ego was never a scenario. He wanted revenge and he wanted it as quick as possible.

But Goku knew that he could stop it from happening. In every situation that is "Goku let X person go!" or "Goku could have prevented this from happening but chose not to!" Goku knows (or rather hopes) that he can stop the threat. It's very selfish, we all know that, but Goku always has a plan to try and save the innocent lives caught up in the crossfire of his foolish wishes to fight stronger foes. In Super, Goku has no such plan. He does not care about the other universes, and he's a person who (before we knew about Zeno's plan to eliminate some universes) straight up basically laughed in the face of the universes complaining that they could be eliminated.

This is a very stark contrast to how Goku was written during the U6 arc. When Champa was basically ready to kill Hit and the rest of the U6 team, Goku was raring to go and ready to defend Hit and the rest of the U6 team. Beerus even tells him, it's not your universe, it's not your problem. Goku reluctantly obeys Beerus, but you can clearly tell that he was worried and wanted to help Hit and the rest, who really were innocents and did nothing wrong. Now we have multiple universes who also have innocent people under threat of eradication, and Goku just...doesn't care. To make matters even worse, Goku was literally the sole reason these universes were going to be eliminated (at least based on what he knew at the time) and he still didn't care!

This is one plan that Goku is just completely selfish in and has shown zero remorse, guilt, compassion, or hell even a single THOUGHT about the other universes he had (at the time) put in danger. And people say "Well why should Goku care about the other universes he has no attachments to them" but you're forgetting that those other universes are filled with trillions of innocent people, and despite not knowing any of them, Goku isn't the type of dude who would be perfectly fine with innocent people being killed.

Several universes were going to be destroyed whether Goku talked to Zeno or not. Goku did not enforce this rule nor was he told about it specifically before reminding Zeno about the tournament. And it's not as if Goku reacted stone faced when Grand Priest told him about the circumstances of the Tournament of Power. Goku was just as shocked and horrified, like everyone else was, when he found out the circumstances of the Tournament of Power from Grand Priest. He couldn't believe that such a stipulation had been added and didn't expect it to happen. How could he have possibly predicted something like that would ever happen? Hell, he even wanted to talk to Zeno to persuade him not to destroy any universes. So it's not as if Goku didn't take into consideration that several universes were going to be destroyed and didn't try to think of way to fix it, because he did. And Whis suggested him not to do that in fear that it would upset Zeno and he would kill Goku on the spot.

What happened in the Android/Cell arc was a whole different ball game. Goku was specifically told by Future Trunks what was going to happen, who it was going to happen to, when it was going to happen and who was responsible for it. And Bulma provided an extremely sound and simple solution to prevent the end of the world at they knew it, and Goku turns it down so he fight the Androids, in turn gamble with the fate the Earth. Ironically, had he face 17 and 18 when he did, after the three years of training, he would have died.

So what did you expect Goku to do in this situation? Kill Vegeta? Do you really think that would have been in his character? And if he hadn't held back and had gone SSJ3 from the start then

A) Goku's remaining time on Earth would be cut short as we saw when he transformed in front of Buu.

B) Buu would have been released even faster because of Goku powering up to full.

There was nothing Goku could have done in that situation. Vegeta was killing innocent people and would continue until Goku fought him. So Goku fought him, and had no choice. Whether he went full power from the start wouldn't have mattered. Buu would still be summoned anyway, and Goku would have less time to try and deal with him.

Goku wouldn't even have to kill Vegeta. He could have teleported behind him and knocked Vegeta out with one punch. Then IT to when Babidi and Dabra are and kill them both. Boom. Majin Boo arc over. Goku had no reason to keep SSJ3 in his back pocket. Babidi still needed a decent amount of energy to resurrect Majin Boo and Goku unnecessarily gave it to him

I'm not sure how you mean. Goku & Vegeta both knew that Kid Buu was a lot weaker than Super Buu, and they may have had a chance to take him on as they were. The only other option they had at the time was fusion again, to which both of them declined. Goku knew there was no chance to win against Super Buu without fusion, but he figured that if he could have a chance against Kid Buu, why would he do something as crazy as a permanent fusion again? I don't see how that was reckless or whatever of him.

Kid Boo easily destroyed the world and reformed from it instantly. And Goku and Vegeta have the nerve to lowball him despite that happening? Just because he's not as strong as Super Boo? Then they're idiots. Absolute idiots. Kid Boo may be weaker than Super Boo, but they still had no idea how strong he was. And even if they didn't want use the Potara, they could have done the Fusion Dance. Hell, the fact that wasn't brought up is even more inexcusable because Goku and Vegeta both know about it. Keep in my mind, shit had already hit the fan by that point. Earth was gone and billions of people, Goku and Vegeta's friends ans family, were dead. Why did they not think about ending this as quick as possible? Kid Boo could have instantly destroyed the Kaioshin's Planet as soon as he teleported there for all they know.

Ah yes, the same Goku who didn't care whatsoever when Beerus was explaining the gravity of the situation, and who didn't even remotely try and press the issue of talking Zeno out of it after Whis said no. "Yeah yeah Beerus I know you're talking about entire universes being erased and shit but dude, STRONG FIGHTERS! teehee" - yeah nah that ain't Goku. His selfishness never got in the way of his empathy.

So wait... you condemn Goku for not taking the advice of the Beerus and Whis and not talking to Zeno, but then you say he really should have not taken the advice of Whis and talked to Zeno again. For all Goku knew at that stage, not listening to Beerus and Whis was got him into the predicament in the first place. I think taking the advice of Beerus and Whis after the circumstances of the Tournament of Power were made apparent was more of a viable and understandable option for Goku at that time. After that Goku when Goku suggestion of perusing Zeno not destroy any of the universes was shot down, he was literally wondering what he could do to salvage this scenario. And came to the conclusion to focus and winning the Tournament of Power and saving his own universe because there was not much else Goku could could do at this stage. There's no guarantee that Goku would be able persuade Zeno to change such a stipulation without some strings attached. Zeno is a very capricious person. He may be friends with Goku, but there no guarantee he wouldn't wipe him out without a second thought if he annoyed him by trying to change his mind on something he's certain on. He's that kind of person.

Alright, so then can you explain to me why you think TOEI has been very obviously hammering the "Goku is evil" angle for the past few episodes? If Goku has always been this way as you've been implying, then why is TOEI very intentionally and obviously driving this point home in almost every episode? Do you really think it's something as silly as them merely highlighting how Goku has "always been" as if it's supposed to be a shocking revelation about the character that the fanbase never realized or something? If not, then what? They aren't doing it for no reason. It's very clearly a writing trope designed to make us look at the character in a different way. The question is, why do they want to make it look like Goku is evil? We'll just have to wait and see.

Toei are making Goku's morality a central subject because it's never been really disused in depth or had any sort of significant commentary in-universe. Battle Of Gods was the first time that Dragon Ball dared to dips its toe in that region when Goku's morality is questioned because of his love of fighting. As a Saiyan, it's in his blood to love fighting and combat, and that love for fighting sometimes comes off as a negative to humans, gods, and even other aliens. We're know seeing how people outside of Goku's universe, who mostly used to his antics, would view his behaviour. And by the standards of other fighters in other universes, they brand him as "evil" for it. I'm very intrigued to see how this angle plays out.